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S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


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Old 03-11-2012, 02:29 PM
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Default .455 Picture Thread

I can't find that there has ever been a thread on the .455's that was deemed "notable", so I thought I'd start one up where these could be viewed and compared.

I'll get this going with a Second Model (sometimes referred to as a Mark II) in the 63000 serial number range. It does not appear to have been altered or modified in any manner. The only non-factory applied markings I can see are the opposed broad arrows denoting deaccession and a crown over 30 on the butt.

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Old 03-11-2012, 02:45 PM
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Gee, that looks GRAY! not blued. Was it refinished, Parkerizing? Bad photo? Have you shot it?

I think your .455 thread idea is a good one, and hope that many post photos of these good guns.

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Old 03-11-2012, 05:07 PM
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Gee, that looks GRAY! not blued. Was it refinished, Parkerizing? Bad photo?
It's actually a nice, original blue. I had lightened the photo a bit so that details would be more readily visible, but I've now replaced that shot with another one that gives a truer impression as to the state of its finish.
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Old 03-11-2012, 05:51 PM
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Fine looking revolver Goony. Have you any history?
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Old 03-11-2012, 06:06 PM
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That looks better. Thanks.
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Old 03-11-2012, 07:19 PM
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Fine looking revolver Goony.
Thank you. Actually, even the latest photo I've posted doesn't do it justice. It retains probably 98 to 99% of its original blue.

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Have you any history?
Not really, nor have I lettered it. I do remember where and when I found it, in a gunshop in Eau Claire, Wisconsin way back in 1989. I suspect it was originally intended for issue to Canadian forces (hence the map in the background), but there's nothing about it that would confirm that.

Edit: I thought I had a really nice example, but the others since posted below make mine look like a beater, albeit it would appear none of these others actually saw any service. There are just some astonishing guns in collections out there....
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Old 03-11-2012, 07:35 PM
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Just last December I posted an array of photos of my .455 Mk. II Second Model H.E. at this thread:

S&W .455 Mk. II Hand Ejector 2nd Model #69234

Here's one of my photos. The rest are at the linked thread.

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Old 03-11-2012, 07:41 PM
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2nd model HE shipped to Winchester to use as a test gun. Photo of box and rollmark tool for master carton of cartridges.







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Old 03-11-2012, 08:18 PM
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Default Altered .455

I have an uncut .455 but I also have one .38 Special.

Don't know why but three attempts to upload were rejected, its a no.2 frame with an HD barrel and cylinder dating to 1934.

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Old 03-11-2012, 09:18 PM
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2nd model HE shipped to Winchester to use as a test gun.
I'm presuming this was done because W.R.A. had been contracted to be an ammunition supplier to the British Commonwealth for these revolvers?

Also, are my eyes deceiving me, or has that front sight been lowered (by flattening the top)?

And finally, what's with that "455 Colt" marking?

Fascinating piece of history, thanks for sharing.
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Old 03-11-2012, 09:38 PM
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Default Here are a couple.

SN# 52554 Shipped April 1916

SN# 53541 Shipped June 9, 1916




Both of these guns have the crown over 30 stamped on the bottom of the grip frame. The first gun may or may not have been fired, if it was only a handful of times. The second gun I believe to be unfired. How they stood the test of time as well as they did, we will never know.

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Old 03-11-2012, 10:01 PM
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Goony: S&W would not put .455 COLT on the gun and Winchester would not call their cartridge ELEY so Winchester called the cartridge .455 Colt. From what I have found most of the Winchester .455 Colt cartridges were shipped to Canada. I have a photo of the .455 Colt box and I have found 2 rounds with WRA .455 head stamp. Dominion cartridges in .455 Colt are eazier to find.
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Old 03-11-2012, 11:46 PM
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Though I have two .455 revolvers, I don't (yet) have one that has "Smith & Wesson" stamped on it. Bummer huh?



.455 Colt reloads:
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Old 03-12-2012, 09:15 AM
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My 455 has original chambering and was shipped May 1916. Bought it several years ago from Jim Supica, and should have bought several at the low prices these revolvers used to sell for.
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Old 03-12-2012, 09:40 AM
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Default ????? 4 lines

This is a pic I saved for curiousity's sake
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Old 03-13-2012, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Waidmann View Post
This is a pic I saved for curiousity's sake
A factory refinish from the era (late '60s and early '70s, I think) in which S&W was re-stamping the guns that came in to make them compliant with current marking standards.
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Old 03-13-2012, 01:25 PM
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I believe the reason why S&W guns were proofed by Winchester with .455 Colt ammo is that it was in normal commercial production at Winchester, as Colt made the New Service in that caliber, and also sold many of those guns to the British. The RCMP used the New Service in both .45 Colt and in .455, and much of that Winchester ammo was probably being sold north of our border, even before the war.

The .455 Colt gives higher velocity than the MK II, about 700 FPS to a nominal 620 FPS from a six-inch barrel. It also uses the MK I case, which is longer, but any MK I ctg. can be fired in the .455 gun. The .455 Colt is just Colt's marketing of the .455 MK I Webley or Eley cartridge.

Officially, the reason for going to the shorter case is that it handled smokeless powder more efficiently. But the cylinders would accept either case length. I think the wadcutter (Man Stopper) rounds were only loaded in MK II cases, though. They were widely used in places like India, but I think for Euro service, only the regular round-nosed lead bullets were employed. They were intended to tumble in a body, causing added wounding power. MK VII .303 ammo is also meant to be marginally stable in flight, to also create more massive wounds in tumbling within a human target. This was meant to give added killing power on wild fanatic tribesmen.

In the case of the ,303, I suspect that it's deadly on smaller antelope with a heart/lung shot, but might not hold a true course in shooting larger game, for which regular softnosed sporting ammo should be used, even where the GI ammo might be legal.

The .455 had a good rep for stopping men at close range. I think the bullet weight and diameter, as well as the tendency to tumble helped a lot. But I've read that enough British officers bought guns in .45 Colt that the supply system in India stocked that ammo, too. Also, .44-40. Don't know when that stopped. Probably in the 1920's, when new regs specified that they carry only the issued revolver. That was probably part of the gun control scheme that reared its head at that tme and just got worse.
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Old 03-13-2012, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by ButchG17 View Post
Though I have two .455 revolvers, I don't (yet) have one that has "Smith & Wesson" stamped on it. Bummer huh?



.455 Colt reloads:



Your .455 reloads look like they're made from auto pistol cases. Why?

I bet they'd knock a man down at normal combat range...are those Keith style bullets, about 260 grains? Meant originally for .45 Colt? Or for the .45 auto? Any idea of the velocity that you're getting?
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Old 03-13-2012, 01:34 PM
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BTW, I loved seeing those boxes. Had no idea that the company was marking those as "Government Model." They must have had a good laugh at Colt over that name.
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Old 03-13-2012, 11:59 PM
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No picture, but an interesting story. I was at the Albuquerque gun show a few weeks ago and an old friend told me this. He is a good machinist and has a nice shop full of tools.

Some years ago, when they were cheap, he bought an old Smith, probably a 2d Model, in 455. It was in nice shape with a good bore and he wanted to shoot it. 455 ammo was a lot scarcer then than now. He decided he'd rechamber it to 45 Colt. He had it all cinched up in the holder and was about to machine it when his daughter, who was watching said: "Daddy, what's this marking on the butt: RFC?" He looked, turned a little pale , took the cylidner out of the die, reassembled the pistol, oiled it carefully and put it away. He still has it. He says he's never heard of another revolver marked to the Royal Flying Corps, the ancestor of the RAF. The change occured in 1918.
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Old 03-14-2012, 06:47 AM
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I have one that has been converted to use the .45 acp with moon clips
or .45 AR. I much prefer using AR brass for handloads. I get 766 fps
with a .452 255 gr SWC over 5.3 grs W231. I plan to try some .454
bullets when I run across some at a gun show.
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Old 03-14-2012, 01:38 PM
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I have one that has been converted to use the .45 acp with moon clips
or .45 AR. I much prefer using AR brass for handloads. I get 766 fps
with a .452 255 gr SWC over 5.3 grs W231. I plan to try some .454
bullets when I run across some at a gun show.

How's it shoot?
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Old 03-15-2012, 11:37 AM
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Photos of .455 Colt ammunition boxes

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Old 03-15-2012, 12:47 PM
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It is interesting how many high condition 455 are floating around out there. I remember several years ago when Jim Supica had several pages of these revolvers for sale, all in high condition. The British and Canadians must have taken great care in maintaining these revolvers.
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Old 03-16-2012, 03:21 AM
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How's it shoot?
It might shoot better with larger dia softer bulets but the hard
cast .452 dia bullets often available today aren't the answer.
I did a quick comparison this afternoon in my back yard over
my " benchrest " sawhorse with a rolled up piece of carpet on
top between my 1917, my 1937 Brazilian and the 1915 .455.
Interesting groups.
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Old 03-17-2012, 01:04 AM
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Thems some nice keyholes thar!
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Old 03-17-2012, 01:29 AM
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Quote:
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Your .455 reloads look like they're made from auto pistol cases. Why?
The extractor groove is bigger (looking similar to the one on .45 ACP's) because the cases were made by trimming .45 Colt brass and reducing the rim thickness from the *inside* edge of the rim. If memory serves, I got them from Buffalo Arms?

Quote:
...are those Keith style bullets, about 260 grains? Meant originally for .45 Colt?
That they are! Cast them myself....

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Any idea of the velocity that you're getting?
They're doing a rippin' 650 fps!
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Old 03-18-2012, 02:56 PM
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I just picked up a Smith & Wesson .455 . She has been modified to shoot .45 Long Colt.
The gunsmith I got her from said she is mechanically sound and should be safe to shoot standard factory .45 Long Colt.
For as old as she is she still retains 70-80 % of her finish.
I hope I look that good when I'm her age. Okay who am I kidding? I've never looked that good.
She has some stamps on her and I'd like to know all I can about her past.
She may have gotten around some in her youth. Ahh to be young again.
She is S/N 59040
She Is stamped Smith & Wesson .455. On the left side of her barrel.
Crossed flags on left side of frame just below the barrel pin.
Left side, top right corner of frame, just under the top of her 1950's diamond grips is stamped an upward pointing arrow, under that a crown, under that is 44, under that is E, and under that is what looks like II.
All these are stacked on top of each other.
On the right side of her frame, lower right corner is stamped 4MD with the number 13 under that.
And on the right side of her frame just under her S&W Trade Mark is stamped the number 2280 .
Anything and everything you can tell me will be greatly appreciated.
Thank you.

Last edited by Scary Gary; 03-21-2012 at 03:43 PM.
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Old 03-21-2012, 01:49 PM
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She Is stamped Smith & Wesson .445. On the left side of her barrel.
That would be extraordinarily rare! But I presume that's just a typo on your part.

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Originally Posted by Scary Gary View Post
Crossed flags on left side of frame just below the barrel pin.
Flags or pennants? In this case, a photo would be helpful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scary Gary View Post
Left side, top right corner of frame, just under the top of her 1950's diamond grips is stamped an upward pointing arrow, under that a crown, under that is 44, under that is E, and under that is what looks like II. All these are stacked on top of each other.
The arrow should be a broad arrow (denoting government ownership). The crown over 44 is likely an inspector's acceptance mark. The E over II suggests to me Queen Elizabeth II, but that would mean the gun would have to been retained in service until at least 1952, which seems unlikely.

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On the right side of her frame, lower right corner is stamped 4MD with the number 13 under that.
4MD may indicate the 4th Military District, Central Command, South Australia, but that mark ought to be "4.M.D."

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Originally Posted by Scary Gary View Post
And on the right side of her frame just under her S&W Trade Mark is stamped the number 2280.
Perhaps an assigned rack or property number.
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Old 03-21-2012, 03:46 PM
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That Sir was a typo, thanks for pointing it out.
And I have pictures, I just can't figure out how to put them on here.
Sorry.
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Old 03-24-2012, 02:08 AM
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Here is a TL #9143. Note the trigger stop. Still in .455.


Here is a second model that has been converted to 45Colt. #73289. Crown over 30 on the butt.
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Old 03-24-2012, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Here is a TL #9143.
gunfish,
Have you lettered this TL? The serial number given is way out of line with the .455 1st British contract Triple Locks.
They were numbered in their own series from 1 to 5000 (app.)
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Old 03-24-2012, 11:58 AM
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Here is my .455 “Named” TL. (Still 100% original except as explained.)
When I received it the previous owner (not the same as on the gun) had “removed” the name by taking two shallow milling cuts over the engraving. I went to a machinist friend and asked if he knew any way to raise the old markings. Fortunately, he did. Unfortunately when he masked off the area for bead blasting, he did a sloppy job. Hence the damage as you can see.

The following is a brief history of the original owner:

Temp. Captain C(harles) F(rancis) Drew, M.B. RAMC

Charles Francis DREW graduated from The University of Adelaide with a Bachelor of Medicine and Bachelor of Surgery (MBBS) on 13 December 1911
March 1915 ~ Enlisted in Royal Army Medical Corps
19 March 1915- Appointed Temp Lieutenant .
1 June 1915 – Entered France . Assigned to No. 9 Field Ambulance.
(A Field Ambulance was roughly the same as a forward aid station. They gave first treatment and transported to the rear hospitals.)
19 March 1916 – Appointed Temp Captain .
24 Dec1917 – Mentioned in Despatches.
23 Jan 1918 –Relinquished commission on account of illness.
1 Jan 1919- Awarded the Military Cross (No. 9, Field Amb).
7 Nov 1924 ? Associated with Victory, British , Star (1915) & Emblems on MIC (Medal Index Card)
Also shown as on Officer roll 141 Pgs. 204b and 338 .

I also have his birthplace, birthdate and his parents but can’t seem to lay my hands on them right now.
It is my assumption that he returned to Australia sometime after the war as the sidearm in question came out of Australia.

Here’s a brief history of
No.9, Field Ambulance.
Joined 3rd Division Aug 1914
Left 3rd Division 28 Aug 1915
Joined Guards Division 28 Aug 1915
For the duration of the war.

The following is a response I received from David Penn in reply to my queries concerning doctors carrying sidearms:

It was entirely usual for RAMC officers to carry a pistol. and, as with other army officers, they were required to purchase their own. By the middle of the war this was in practice possible where .455 revolvers were concerned only by purchasing a revolver 'out of store' (i.e. from the War Office) or second hand, privately. It was of course still possible to purchase pistols not in the Service calibre from civilian sources, and many officers chose to carry something other than (or as well as) a .455 (.32 acp Colts were very popular). Revolvers with the opposed broad arrow markings were 'sold out of store'. These became the officer's property absolutely. At the end of the War, there was a second shortage of revolvers (the American factories were making for the American government, and relations between the British government and Webley were not good). The government therefore launched an appeal to retired officers to sell back their .455s. Very occasionally, therefore, such a revolver is found with cancelled 'sold out of store' markings.

I hope that this information is of help in your research.

Yours sincerely,
David Penn
Keeper, Exhibits & Firearms BWM


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Old 03-24-2012, 12:48 PM
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deadin, I was thinking #9143 may be a 44HE converted by S&W and sent to UK. I will start a separate thread and put up more pics. SCSW mentions conversions of about 660 1st models from 44SPL.
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Old 03-24-2012, 01:38 PM
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I was thinking #9143 may be a 44HE converted by S&W and sent to UK.
You are 100% correct! The Neal & Jinks book "Smith & Wesson 1857 - 1945" has the serial listings for these revolvers and 9143 is on that list.
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Old 03-24-2012, 02:16 PM
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Dean, I have a couple questions:

What is the serial number range of your Triple Lock (that is, is it one of the early contract guns or a later conversion from .44 as mentioned above)?

Was the convention of using an opposed broad arrow marking to signify a revolver having been "sold out of store" a commonwealth-wide one? Would Australian and Canadian guns have received that same mark under the same circumstances?
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Old 03-24-2012, 02:40 PM
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Mine is one of the 1st Contract guns that fell in their own serial range of 1 to ~5000. (Mine is # 718 ).

The opposed broad arrows were definitely used in Britain and Canada, I'm not sure about Australia. (Maybe one of our ANZAC's can answer.)
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Old 03-27-2012, 09:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Scary Gary View Post
Left side, top right corner of frame, just under the top of her 1950's diamond grips is stamped an upward pointing arrow, under that a crown, under that is 44, under that is E, and under that is what looks like II.
All these are stacked on top of each other.
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The arrow should be a broad arrow (denoting government ownership). The crown over 44 is likely an inspector's acceptance mark. The E over II suggests to me Queen Elizabeth II, but that would mean the gun would have to been retained in service until at least 1952, which seems unlikely.
Hi Goony & Scary Gary,

I have one with almost the exact same markings. Broad arrow, crown, 44, E, II.

I have attached a pic that is not too clear but you can make out the 'lazy' arrow at the top then the crown, 44, E & II.

The E is the "Enfield RSAF" view mark and the II is to denote that this is a "MkII" as oposed to the New Century Triple Lock. (info taken from page 402 of Hayes Handgun Omnibus)

Mine has the number 2126 under the S&W Trade Mark and the number 3 over 24 where Scary's has the 4MD over 13. Mine also has 3.M.D. stamped on the backstrap...certainly the mark of the Austrlaian 3rd Military District (Victoria).

I have ben assuming that the 3 on mine was for the 3rd Military District (Victoria) and 24th Battalion AIF (Raised in Kooyong, Victoria). I assumed the 2126 was the rack number.

It also has the crossed penants and a "sold out of service" broad arrow mark.

I have attached the pics below

Mike












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Old 03-28-2012, 10:12 AM
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Hi Goony & Scary Gary,

I have one with almost the exact same markings. Broad arrow, crown, 44, E, II.

The E is the "Enfield RSAF" view mark and the II is to denote that this is a "MkII" as oposed to the New Century Triple Lock. (info taken from page 402 of Hayes Handgun Omnibus)
Thank you, Mike, particularly for the correct interpretation of the "E" over "II" mark. I'd never heard of the Hayes Handgun Omnibus, but I guess I'll need to add a copy to my library now.
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Old 03-28-2012, 11:37 AM
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Thank you so much for the information Sir.
What does " enfield RSAF " stand for?
And does this make mine Australian as well?

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Old 03-28-2012, 05:56 PM
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Thank you so much for the information Sir.
What does " enfield RSAF " stand for?
And does this make mine Australian as well?
Gary-

Enfield is the Royal Small Arms Factory, (RSAF). It is located at Enfield Lock, England. The Lee-Enfield rifles may be their best known product, although other suppliers existed, too.

During WW II, they farmed out rifle production, I think, to concentrate on making Bren guns and their design of .38 revolver. (Adopted in 1927 to replace the .455 Webley MK VI, which they were making by then, to avoid ordering them from Webley.)

This was possible because the Crown can't be sued, but caused bad blood between the govt. and Webley.

These WWI and WWII S&W guns were probably proofed or just distributed from there. Guns sent on to the Commonwealth may well have passed through Enfield. If it has suitable markings, probably yours is one. But Lithgow Arsenal (Munitions Australia) may also have marked some guns. Many of the S&W .38's given Factory Thorough Repair (FTR) there in the 1950's are now in the USA.

Listen carefully to your gun. If you pick it up and it says, "G'Day, Mate.", it is probably an Australian example.

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Old 03-28-2012, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Scary Gary View Post
Thank you so much for the information Sir.
What does " enfield RSAF " stand for?
And does this make mine Australian as well?
Hi Scary,

Like T-Star said most S&W revolvers for Commonwealth service were proofed at the Enfield RSAF and distributed from there. When the WWI broke out Australia had only been its own country for 13 years (from 1901). Prior to that it was just a collection of British colonies so ties were still fairly strong.

In fact Australian military was still awarded British bravery and gallantry medals and honours until about 1975 and our highest bravery award, "The Victoria Cross for Australia", was only introduced in 1991! Previously all Victoria Cross awards were British!

Anyway, your revolver would almost certainly be an Australian issue with the 4MD and same markings as mine.

T-Star also mentioned the Lithgow Small Arms Factory. Between 1913 & 1925 the Lithgow inspection mark was a 7 pointed star with an "A" in the centre. I have seen plenty of these on .303 rifles and bayonets but I have not come accross one on a revolver yet. They did proof the WWII Enfield MkII made under contract by HAC (Howard Auto Cultivators)...incidentally there were only about 350 HAC Enfields made...I NEED one!

LOVE to see some pics of yours just to make sure though! Does it look like mine?

CHeers

Mike
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Old 03-29-2012, 10:46 AM
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Mine looks almost identical to yours.
And I can't figure out how to down load pictures.
Sorry.
And thanks for everyone's help.
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Old 03-29-2012, 07:02 PM
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Mine looks almost identical to yours.
And I can't figure out how to down load pictures.
Sorry.
And thanks for everyone's help.
Hey Scary,

I just tried to send you a private message about uploading pics but your mailbox is full...I cant send it until you delete some stuff...lol
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Old 03-30-2012, 11:21 AM
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How did my mailbox get full?
I'll check it out.
Thanks.

Okay.
I got the mailbox thingy taken care of.

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Old 03-31-2012, 05:17 AM
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SN# 52554 Shipped April 1916
SN# 53541 Shipped June 9, 1916



Chad Gripp
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Chad those are amazing examples. However, I have to say the box is just as amazing! Maybe you already know why your box reads 45 Special on the inside and the 455 label is pasted over an older label.
Smith & Wesson 1857-1945, by Neal & Jinks. Page 208 references the experimental S&W 45 Special for the 1907 Army revolver trials and S&Ws subsequent consideration of introducing the revolver/cartridge commercially:

""In 1908 or 1909 [S&W] seriously considered introducing a model that was to be called the "45 Special." This cartridge was designed for use in the 44 Hand Ejector 1st Model. The cartridge was a revolver cartridge developed for military use at the Frankford Arsenal. The project progressed so far that the company actually made boxes for the gun, but it was never commercially sold."

I believe you have one of those boxes! Discussed in this thread:
The Army Tests the Triple Lock in 1907
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Old 03-31-2012, 12:55 PM
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Jim, It just so happens I recently had a conversation with a fellow collector about the box reading .45 special. We speculated that it had something to do with an experimental cartridge, but didn't really know. My next step was to call Roy and see if he could shed some light on the subject. I appreciate you bringing the other thread to my attention......It answers a lot of questions. I'll post a pic or two over on that thread.

Chad
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Old 09-05-2012, 02:53 PM
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Default Advertisement from 1955

Indicative of not all cartridge conversions from .455 having been performed by individual owners (or the local gunsmith).
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 455 ad.jpg (94.4 KB, 162 views)
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Old 09-05-2012, 06:23 PM
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Warshall's was a local gunsmith and large sporting goods store in Seattle at that time....
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Old 09-05-2012, 10:28 PM
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Hi
don't want to hijack your thread but here is a rare 455 built by Joe Wesson for his friend
Mr. Herreshoff who was a famous Yacht Builder. This gun won a Silver metal in 2007 at the Nra convention,
Jim Fisher




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