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S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


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Old 03-17-2012, 10:46 AM
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Default The Army Tests the Triple Lock in 1907

Beginnning on January 15th, 1907, and continuing until March 28th of that year, the U.S. Army convened a board of five officers to conduct tests of various .45 caliber automatic pistols and revolvers. One of the revolvers included in these tests was an entry from Smith & Wesson that, in its commercial incarnation, would introduce the .44 Smith & Wesson Special and would itself become known as "The Triple Lock".

The findings of the board were reported to Brigadier General William Crozier, Chief of Ordnance, and were published as an appendix to "The Report of the Chief of Ordnance to the Secretary of War" in August of 1907.

From the report:
"All of the above weapons were caliber .45, firing ammunition having a muzzle velocity of approximately 800 feet per second and a weight of bullet of 230 grains."

And
"The distinguishing characteristics of the Smith & Wesson double-action revolver are as follows:
1. There is a sliding block safety device for holding the hamer on rebound.
2. A front cylinder lock maintains the barrel and cylinder in alignment.
3. The cylinder latch operates forward.
4. The barrel is pinned to the frame to prevent rotation.
5. The grip and trigger-guard are too small.
6. The soulder of the frame, against which the hand rests, is vertical and narrow.
7. The cylinder may be revolved by manipulating the trigger and without cocking the hammer.
8. The cylinder rotates to the left and swings out to the left.
9. The barrel of the weapon tested was 6-1/2 inches in length.
"


The attached PDF contains the results of the Army's testing of the Smith & Wesson revolver, of which there would seem to have been at least two: one with a 6-1/2 inch barrel (mentioned in No.9 above), and one with a 5-1/2 inch barrel, mentioned at the end of the test results.

TL

Last edited by TripleLock; 03-17-2012 at 11:17 AM. Reason: Added information on ammuniton used in testing
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Old 03-17-2012, 12:00 PM
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Hadn't seen that before. Thanks for posting. I was pretty sure that S&W had to have done some market research and test manufacturing for a heavy-frame hand ejector rather than introducing it cold, but I wasn't specifically aware of those pre-release military trials.

.45 ACP? 5.5-inch barrel? But for the ejector rod shroud and third yoke/cylinder latch, that sounds familiar somehow.
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Old 03-17-2012, 12:58 PM
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Thanks for posting. I had seen this before here on the forum years ago.
on a side note: perhaps Uncle Ed will show up and tell us what the trials were like as he was there but they wouldn't let him shoot his Schofield

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Old 03-17-2012, 01:46 PM
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The report mentions a barrel coming unscrewed. I guess S&W learned how to better fit the barrels. The narrow grip was noted, but they took uintil the 1930's to develop the Magna grips!
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Old 03-17-2012, 02:41 PM
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So, does anyone know - was the Army Trials S&W in question firing .45 Colt, or .45 ACP Ammuniution?
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Old 03-17-2012, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Oyeboteb View Post
So, does anyone know - was the Army Trials S&W in question firing .45 Colt, or .45 ACP Ammuniution?
It couldn't have been the .45 ACP, as the half moon clip hadn't been developed yet (1916, patent assigned to DB Wesson).

It would probably been the .45 Gov't cartridge, which was similar to the Schofield round.
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Old 03-17-2012, 03:55 PM
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The M-1909 .45 Colt also hadn't been developed. Frankford Arsenal created it with a wider rim, better for ejection in DA revolvers, like the M-1909 New Service.

The velocities cited in that report suggest that Muley Gil is right, the ammo probably that issued for service in Colt SAA's used in the Phillipines.

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Old 03-17-2012, 04:53 PM
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There wasn't actually a .45 ACP round as we now know it at that time, but there was a dimensionally very similar round for the M1905 Colt autopistol having a 200 grain bullet. And at that time that round had not been adopted for government use either. The very first .45 rounds for use in an autoloading pistol were hand-made modifications of .45 Colt cases. No, NOT .45 Long Colt cases, as there never was a .45 Short Colt, just a .45 S&W, which was sort of a shortened .45 Colt originally intended for the Schofield but used in both it and the Colt SAA. As pointed out, the M1909 cartridge was essentially the .45 Colt cartridge with a larger diameter rim for use with the Colt New Service revolver, the last handgun officially adopted by the US Army prior to the adoption of the Model 1911. It didn't work so well in the Colt SAA due to rim interference between the chambers unless you were happy with a 3-shot SAA that went BANG-click-BANG-click-BANG. The ammunition used in the triple-lock during these tests was probably the .45 S&W, as that is what the Army standard .45 round was in 1907 (despite its having adopted the .38 Long Colt cartridge and a Colt revolver much earlier, in 1892).

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Old 03-17-2012, 08:59 PM
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I read somewhere there was an experimental round chambered in a 1st model new century called the .45 Frankfort.

Senility settling in or did I read that in one of Jum Supica's books. As I recall it was very early, well before the "triplelock" was actually introduced.

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Old 03-17-2012, 09:07 PM
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Originally Posted by 44 special Dave View Post
I read somewhere there was an experimental round chambered in a 1st model new century called the .45 Frankfort.

Senility settling in or did I read that in one of Jum Supica's books. As I recall it was very early, well before the "triplelock" was actually introduced.

Dave
That info is on pages 158-1589 of the SCSW, 3rd edition.
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Old 03-18-2012, 03:05 AM
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That velocity is a good bit higher than I have seen reported for the .45 government rnd. I seem to recall, that should be 230gr at 800 to 850fps. I think the rnd in question was a S&W rnd. A .45 S&W spl as it were. I am probably way off base here, but would like very much to hear the real story. Some collector has the original trial gun and a second partial gun from the trials.
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Old 03-18-2012, 05:31 AM
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Originally Posted by ddixie884 View Post
That velocity is a good bit higher than I have seen reported for the .45 government rnd. I seem to recall, that should be 230gr at 800 to 850fps. I think the rnd in question was a S&W rnd. A .45 S&W spl as it were. I am probably way off base here, but would like very much to hear the real story. Some collector has the original trial gun and a second partial gun from the trials.
No not off base, it was a 45 S&W Special as described in Muley Gil's reference. (Note: Although often called Frankfort it's actually the Frankford Arsenal.)

From my notes I recall that the 45 S&W Spl (45 Frankford Arsenal) used a 255 Gr. Bullet, was not a standard 45 Colt length and had a larger diameter rim (not to be confused with the 45 AR’s thicker rim). Since it was a smokeless round the wider rim was to prevent use in the remaining Colt SAA’s still in U.S. Armory inventories at the time. Interesting because the original 1873 45 Colt ammo with 40 grs. of blackpowder was more powerful. Albeit the faster pressure spike of smokeless ammo was of course the concern. The 45 Frankford was headstamped April 1906. Apparently more than a couple early T-Locks were chambered in this caliber; one and two digit serial #s under # 20 only. These guns are not caliber stamped and must be confirmed by checking the chambering. S&W’s hopes for acceptance of its new S&W .44 Special caliber or revolver were not to be.

Note: The military trials cartridge is often confused with the 45 Frankford Arsenal produced version of the 45 S&W Schofield (a commercial designation only, not military) which of course eventually replaced all Colt SAA ammo after the S&W Schofield revolvers were put into service. Some bemoaned the lower performance but in reality the original 45 Colt had been downgraded to 28 Grs of blackpowder by that time because of recoil complaints and resulting poor marksmanship. Presumably the new rounds would still take down a horse, one of the original 1872 Military Trials requirements.

I understand that the 1909 Colt New Service can also be found chambered for the 45 Frankford/45 S&W Spl. causing some owners frustration when they tried to use the old original 45 Frankford/commercial 45 Schofield ammo in them and discovered they would not extract properly because of the smaller rim diameter!
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Old 03-18-2012, 05:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Muley Gil View Post
It couldn't have been the .45 ACP, as the half moon clip hadn't been developed yet (1916, patent assigned to DB Wesson).
True, but the full moon clip had been around since it was invented by S&W in the late 1800s for the S&W breaktop revolvers, although never used per Roy Jinks. The 1/2 moon clip evolved in 1916 only because of greater efficiency in military packaging when loaded.
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Old 03-18-2012, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Texas Star View Post
The report mentions a barrel coming unscrewed. I guess S&W learned how to better fit the barrels. The narrow grip was noted, but they took uintil the 1930's to develop the Magna grips!
TS,

Unless I misread it, the reference to the barrel unscrewing on pg. 112 is in the end of the report of a gun (unidentified) that precedes the testing of the S&W. The notes specifically say that the TL barrel was pinned.

A more important question to me is listed on pg. 113, paragraph c. when it reports that they fired "5 rounds by mistake"! WTH does that mean?? Glad I wasn't on the range that day!

Bob
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Old 03-18-2012, 11:53 AM
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TS,

Unless I misread it, the reference to the barrel unscrewing on pg. 112 is in the end of the report of a gun (unidentified) that precedes the testing of the S&W. The notes specifically say that the TL barrel was pinned.

A more important question to me is listed on pg. 113, paragraph c. when it reports that they fired "5 rounds by mistake"! WTH does that mean?? Glad I wasn't on the range that day!

Bob

Hi, Bob-


You may be right. I thought the whole report referred to the S&W. And a Colt would be unlikely to foul the crane on the barrel. I think the problem was with the S&W's barrel lug and forward lock. A pinned barrel can come loose, if not well fitted. And this was a new model.

Minus the previous page, it's hard to be sure where the S&W coverage began.
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Old 03-18-2012, 02:05 PM
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Some years ago, when this Forum began, I posted most of the info. above, and it's good to see a new thread on the subject. Unfortunately the Test Report, or other military archives, did not list the serial number of the two S&W test pistols, (assuming they had serial numbers which they may well have not) or whether they were returned to S&W after the tests. One was destroyed by the rust test, which one is unknown. The late Ray Cheely, his brother Ken, Hugh May and I had lengthly correspondence and discussions on the test guns and the other N frame guns produced in 1906, most of which chambered the .45 S&W Special cartridge, aka .45 Frankford ( or Frankfort) . Somewhere I have four examples of the .45 S&W Special round, each with a different head stamp. Exactly how many guns exist today in caliber .45 S&W Special is not known. Ser. #s 2 & 9 are in .45 Special . Ser # 1 is in .44 S&W & has an additional cylinder in .44 WCF. The approx. one doz. extra .45 Special test frames were made up with zero prefix serial numbers , in the 080's range, and sent to VIPs, but most have .44 Special barrels & cylinders.
My friend , Dan Meigs, has insinuated above the I was present at the Tests but they would not let me shoot my .45 Schofield. He is misinformed. They did let me shoot it and an upcoming article in the Journal correctly identifies my gun as a New Model No. 3 Target in .45 Schofield caliber, not as a .45 Schofield. Ed.

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Old 03-18-2012, 04:16 PM
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I'm really getting confused with all the talk about a .45 Frankford cartridge and a .45 S&W Special cartridge. Do these things really exist?

So far as I know FA produced (at least post-1876) only the .45 S&W cartridge for the Schofield and SAA, plus the larger rimmed 1909 version for the Colt New Service. The ONLY purpose I have ever read for the larger diameter M1909 rim was that the narrower rimmed cartridges in .45 S&W and .45 Colt calibers did not provide the fully reliable extraction performance in a swing-out cylinder revolver that the Army wanted. It had nothing to do with not allowing their use in the SAA, as the 1909 cartridge COULD be used in it, but only three cartridges in alternating chambers. The first ammunition for the .45 autoloader by Frankford was a 10,000 round test lot made up in 1906 for pistol trials, and that cartridge was somewhat similar to the later-adopted M1911 .45 ACP cartridge, as it had a 230 grain FMJ bullet. Maybe that FA test lot is mistakenly being called the .45 Frankford - I don't know. If that round was used in the triple-lock S&W, it would have necessarily been especially chambered for it, and that does not make much sense (using a rimless cartridge in a revolver).

Regarding the ".45 S&W Special", what is it and what was it chambered in? What would have been the point of developing such a cartridge, with the .45 Colt and the .45 S&W already being in existence?

All I'm asking is for someone to provide proof that the .45 "Frankford" and/or the .45 S&W "Special" cartridges referred to actually existed, separately from the .45 Colt, .45 S&W, or any pre-M1911 .45 autopistol cartridge (such as the 1906 FA test lot).
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Old 03-18-2012, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DWalt View Post
There wasn't actually a .45 ACP round as we now know it at that time, but there was a dimensionally very similar round for the M1905 Colt autopistol having a 200 grain bullet. And at that time that round had not been adopted for government use either. The very first .45 rounds for use in an autoloading pistol were hand-made modifications of .45 Colt cases. No, NOT .45 Long Colt cases, as there never was a .45 Short Colt, just a .45 S&W, which was sort of a shortened .45 Colt originally intended for the Schofield but used in both it and the Colt SAA. As pointed out, the M1909 cartridge was essentially the .45 Colt cartridge with a larger diameter rim for use with the Colt New Service revolver, the last handgun officially adopted by the US Army prior to the adoption of the Model 1911. It didn't work so well in the Colt SAA due to rim interference between the chambers unless you were happy with a 3-shot SAA that went BANG-click-BANG-click-BANG. The ammunition used in the triple-lock during these tests was probably the .45 S&W, as that is what the Army standard .45 round was in 1907 (despite its having adopted the .38 Long Colt cartridge and a Colt revolver much earlier, in 1892).
I am glad that all of this is so free of possible confusion.

( Lol...)

What a mess it all was! ( ie: the entire Military History of the .45 Calibre Cartridge...)

Much enjoyed and appreciate your grasp and relaying of these details!
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Old 03-18-2012, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by opoefc View Post
Some years ago, when this Forum began, I posted most of the info. above, and it's good to see a new thread on the subject. Unfortunately the Test Report, or other military archives, did not list the serial number of the two S&W test pistols, (assuming they had serial numbers which they may well have not) or whether they were returned to S&W after the tests. One was destroyed by the rust test, which one is unknown. The late Ray Cheely, his brother Ken, Hugh May and I had lengthly correspondence and discussions on the test guns and the other N frame guns produced in 1906, most of which chambered the .45 S&W Special cartridge, aka .45 Frankford ( or Frankfort) . Somewhere I have four examples of the .45 S&W Special round, each with a different head stamp. Exactly how many guns exist today in caliber .45 S&W Special is not known. Ser. #s 2 & 9 are in .45 Special . Ser # 1 is in .44 S&W & has an additional cylinder in .44 WCF. The approx. one doz. extra .45 Special test frames were made up with zero prefix serial numbers , in the 080's range, and sent to VIPs, but most have .44 Special barrels & cylinders.
My friend , Dan Meigs, has insinuated above the I was present at the Tests but they would not let me shoot my .45 Schofield. He is misinformed. They did let me shoot it and an upcoming article in the Journal correctly identifies my gun as a new Model No. 3 Target in .45 Schofield caliber, not a a .45 Schofield. Ed.

Hi Ed,

Thank you. I found your comment in this thread,
http://smith-wessonforum.com/swca-me...ock-096-a.html
referenced at the bottom of this thread, very interesting as well:

"Interesting gun. Several of the series of these special VIP T-Locks in the dozen gun series are in collections of our members. The frames were left over from a group made for the 1906 Army trials for the .45 Special caliber handguns."
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Old 03-18-2012, 11:06 PM
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The PDF contained velocity readings of from just under to just over 1,000fps. I don't think the govt was loading any ammo that fast at that time. The .45 gvt was a 230gr over 28gr black for approx 830fps. The 1909 was a 250gr loaded with 8.4gr RSQ for approx 750fps. I am very interested in this topic, and hope more info is forthcoming. Does anyone know the dimensions of this cartridge?
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Old 03-19-2012, 12:33 AM
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I'm glad that more people are confused by this then just me....
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Old 03-19-2012, 02:05 AM
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Of course the original Black Powder and subsequent Civilian Loading for .45 Colt was a 260-odd Grain Lead Bullet, and, right on to 1000 FPS when out of the longer Barrelled SAA.

And as others have iterated, this was down-loaded for Military applications to oblige the comforts of those Soldiers of I suppose smaller frame, who were to carry or sometimes fire the Revolvers.

Interesting that the 'Trials' appear to have wished to re-introduce a .45 Calibre Cartridge having Ballistics which appear to be on par with what the .45 Colt Cartridge had been, 30-odd years before.
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Old 03-19-2012, 03:24 AM
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Interesting that the 'Trials' appear to have wished to re-introduce a .45 Calibre Cartridge having Ballistics which appear to be on par with what the .45 Colt Cartridge had been, 30-odd years before.
Agreed, probably a classic example of when ideology gets a good dose of reality, i.e., the Philippines.
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Old 03-19-2012, 07:20 AM
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Default What was the 45 Special cartridge chambered in S&W Triple Locks?

What's established so far:

Going back to Muley Gil's SCSW p158-159 reference it states "Pre-production TL in 45 Special caliber, serial # 09, actually thought to be chambered in 45 Frankfor[d] caliber built for U.S. government tests in 1906...The 45 Frankford was an experimental cartridge before the 45 ACP."

Smith & Wesson 1857-1945, by Neal & Jinks. Page 208 states:

"In 1908 or 1909 [S&W] seriously considered introducing a model that was to be called the "45 Special." This cartridge was designed for use in the 44 Hand Ejector 1st Model [New Century]. The cartridge was a revolver cartridge developed for military use at the Frankford Arsenal."


In 1909 the Frankford Arsenal produced .45 Revolver Ball Cartridges Model 1909. They were never made commercially.
REF: .45 Colt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Box for sale here: WTS: Pristine Frankford Arsenal Box Of Model 1909 .45 Revolver Ball Cartridges

Essentially these were 45 Colt cartridges with standard primers, same overall length with a larger diameter rim made to between .536" and .540" to more reliably eject in DA revolvers. 'Balloon' head 45 Colt rims of the time were .500" -.505" and 45 Schofield rims were .522".
Both pictured in the below link and referred to as 45 Frankford Cartridges that were not involved in the Army Trials of 1906-7. And neither of which are the 45 S&W Special/45 Frankford. This also answers the correct Frankford spelling issue.

File:Colt .45 LC Cartridges.JPG - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In 1906 various experimental 45 auto rounds were being developed as were the pistols for them. Both rimless and SEMI-RIMMED rounds were developed. REF: The Frankford Arsenal experimental 1906 FA 4 06, .45 caliber round.

Question:
Considering the above established facts, which then was "The 45 Frankford [that S&W referred to as the 45 Special] was an experimental cartridge before the 45 ACP" as stated in the SCSW?

The Frankford Arsenal 1909 .45 Revolver Ball Cartridge was certainly not produced in 1909 without prior experimentation and seems to be the most likely candidate chambered in the Triple Lock (as the 45 special) and used in the 1906-7 U.S. Trials.
Maybe someone who owns one of the TLs in 45 Spl or that can communicate with someone who does, could confirm the chamber dimensions.
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Old 03-19-2012, 08:50 AM
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...Is why I love this place. I don't post a lot. I do however spend lots & lots of time here, and this thread is an example of why. There is SO MUCH information here it literally boggles the mind ( at least my mind) sometimes. To Lee & staff, thank you for providing a venue such as this, I appreciate and applaude your efforts. Fellow members, thank you for participating in the free exchange of information. We are all better off when we learn from one another. I do love this place and good day to all.
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Old 03-19-2012, 10:25 AM
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Default .45 US Government

My example of this cartridge is headstamped FA 4 06. Specs are:
Rim dia. .526
rim thickness .042
case dia. .470
case length .914
Overall length 1.296
cupronickle jacketed bullet dia. .452

Made only in 1905 and 1906, there were both rimmed and rimless cases.
In Charles R. Suydam's US Cartridges and their handguns it is stated that the charge is 6.9 grains of RSQ powder.

Ken
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Old 03-19-2012, 02:53 PM
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At this point, I'm going to postulate that the .45 Frankford and the .45 Special are probably the same cartridge, and IF it ever existed, it was most likely a limited-run prototype of the later Model 1909 .45 revolver round adopted for Army use in the Colt New Service revolver.
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Old 03-19-2012, 03:31 PM
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Hondo44 and kcwheel, thank you both for the precise and insightful info. This is a topic I have had an interest in for awhile.
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Old 03-19-2012, 05:00 PM
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I have found that in 1906, Frankford Arsenal was directed to produce 10,000 rounds each of .45 ammunition, for both pistols and revolvers submitted to the Army pistol trials (both S&W and Colt submitted .45 DA revolvers). Unfortunately, details are lacking regarding exactly what these .45 revolver rounds made by FA looked like. There are rimmed .45 revolver rounds headstamped FA 4 06 known, but whether these are the revolver rounds made by FA for the 1907 trials has not been established, and even if so, are they any different from the .45 S&W/Schofield Government cartridges? They don't appear to be, and at that time there would have been no reason for them to be anything other than the same .45 round that FA had always produced. More to come.
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Old 03-19-2012, 06:28 PM
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The .45 S&W/Schofield Government cartridges that I have headstamped F 4 87 are dimensioned as follows:

Rim dia. .522 w/o bevel for semi-auto pistol extraction
rim thickness .055
case dia. .470
case length 1.102
Overall length 1.417
Lead bullet dia. .450-2

Quite different from the FA 4 06 round described above.

This is the final configuration of this Frankford round. It has the latest improvements with the crimped-in internal Benet primer of the original 1875 Schof/Frankford round replaced with a standard Boxer external primer.

If Frankford was experimenting with a combination cartridge for both revolver and pistol (which I doubt), the rimmed FA 4 06 may have been the 'experimental' round in question. Both revolvers and semi-auto pistols were included in the 1907 trials. But the 45 S&W/Schofield Government cartridge was only suitable for revolver, it would not have been suitable for semi-auto pistol also still in an early experimental stage and the main reason for the need of a new cartridge. The 45 S&W/Schofield Government was a long time produced round already in inventory at the time and therefore not an 'experimental' round nor would there be a need to specially produce 10,000 rounds of it.

A 45 Special chambered TL chamber dimension would be extremely helpful.
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Old 03-19-2012, 07:52 PM
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I've verified that the information supplied by kcwheel is correct:
F A 4 06 & with punch crimps = CN jacketed bullet, .528" rim, .472" head, .918" case length, .451" bullet at mouth, 1.299" OAL & 350.0 grains total weight.

It seems clear that this is indeed the .45 "Experimental" (or Frankford, or S&W Special) revolver round manufactured by FA for test use in the S&W and Colt revolvers included in the 1907 pistol trials. It would seem the differences in the round from the old original .45 Government (Schofield, M1877) round are in the use of smokeless powder instead of black powder, a slightly shorter case (which would be more efficient with smokeless powder), and a jacketed bullet rather than lead. I would not be surprised that extraction problems while using this cartridge were experienced in the trials, leading to the later adoption of the Model 1909 cartridge having a larger rim and a longer case.

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Old 03-19-2012, 08:09 PM
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It's definietly being narrowed down. My only doubts are that no extraction problems were identified in the Trials report which was quite specific about documenting every little detail.

Although the .526-.528" rim diameter was a an improvement over the .45 Colt .510" and Schofield .522" rim diameters. But still however Frankford did see a need to go to the .536-.540 rim in their .45 1909 cartridge for reliable ejection in the Colt New Service.
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Old 03-19-2012, 08:35 PM
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Quite possibly true, but as the report says nothing specific, good or bad, about loading and ejection of the revolver, we can't know for certain. I still have ejection problems occasionally even with modern DA revolvers and ammunition so I imagine they did back then also. If so, maybe it wasn't considered worthy of mention.
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Old 03-20-2012, 12:00 PM
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I have seen military documentation stating that some of the complaints with the FA 06 cartridge were what was considered severe blast and recoil.
another problem was bullets being pulled by their inertia. Some examples of the cartridge even have stab crimps in an attempt to stop their movement. I have personally seen four versions of the round. Some have a canelure, some are not head stamped at all, and one sample has an almost perfectly hemispherical nose. There were no comments on ejection problems.

Ken
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Old 03-20-2012, 01:05 PM
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Seems like a good time for someone to post some comparative photos of these various .45 cal. rounds.

Bob
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Old 03-20-2012, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bettis1 View Post
Seems like a good time for someone to post some comparative photos of these various .45 cal. rounds.

Bob
Hi Bob,
The FA 4-06 is shown in the link of my post #24. The 1909 is not but just a 45 Colt w/larger rim. And of course we don't know for sure which or if any of them are the elusive 45 S&W Special-Frankford.

Sure would like a Triple Lock 45 Special chamber dimension.
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Old 03-20-2012, 03:32 PM
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Unless the mystery .45 Special/Frankford cartridge (if such a thing even exists apart from the 1906 FA .45 "Experimental" revolver cartridge production) is dimensionally far different from the .45 S&W/Schofield or the .45 Colt, why wouldn't both Colt and S&W have just chambered their trial submission revolvers in .45 Colt? I guess it is possible they did that, and then marked the barrel as .45 Special (or whatever), if it was marked distinctively at all. Without seeing either a S&W or Colt from the trial, or a good photo thereof, or finding some reliable documentation, all that remains is curiosity.

The full 1907 Army trials report can be found here: http://www.forgottenweapons.com/wp-c...stoltrials.pdf
Unfortunately, there is virtually no detail provided in it regarding exactly what the specifications and dimensions of ammunition used during the trial was. There are photos of all of the handguns used in the trial but they are not of adequate quality to see any details of markings. It is notable that the board found the Colt New Service preferable to the S&W TL, and the recommendation was made that the Colt NS revolver be adopted in Caliber .45 for service (as a stopgap until the technology of autopistols could be further developed) and supplied to the forces in the Philippines. This of course was done shortly thereafter. We all know that this revolver was chambered only in .45 Colt with a larger diameter rim, and not in the elusive .45 S&W Special or .45 Frankford.

Unless there is something I have completely overlooked, I continue to believe that the .45 S&W Special and the .45 Frankford were non-official descriptors of the .45 "Experimental" revolver ammunition made up for the 1907 trials by FA, and it's unlikely that any revolvers so-marked by the factory ever existed.

I noticed that there is a member here with the handle of Opoefc who claimed in one of his postings to have one of the 1907 trial TLs. If someone knows him, maybe he could cut through the doubt about the TL chamberings.

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Old 03-20-2012, 09:31 PM
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I don't think Opoefc has a Trial Gun, I think he knows a collector who has one complete example and one incomplete frame. I asked about the .45spl. several years ago and he shared some knowledge with me on this board. I could be wrong I usually am.
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Old 03-21-2012, 05:22 PM
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Well, at least that's a start, knowing that one exists. It is known that a very small number of 1st Model TLs were originally chambered in .45 Colt, and I'd bet the early ones that went to the trial also were.

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Old 03-21-2012, 06:03 PM
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Default .45 Model of 1906 Ammunition

The so-called "Cal. .45 Ball, Model of 1906" was developed in late 1905 by Frankford Arsenal for use in testing revolvers submitted for the Army trials that began in 1906. The case was rimmed, 0.923" in length, and was loaded with a 230-grain cupro-nickel jacketed round-nose bullet over 7.2 grains of Bullseye smokeless powder. The muzzle velocity was 800 fps.

10,000 rounds were ordered manufactured for the trials. The bulk of the casings were manufactured in April 1906, with most of the order being completed as loaded rounds by July of that year. The only reported headstamp is "F A 4 06". Evidently, both cannelured and uncannelured cases were made, with the cannelure being located on the case just behind the base of the bullet where it served to control seating depth.

It would seem that there was never any commercial production of this ammo, but the Union Metallic Cartridge Company provided 5000 rounds to Smith & wesson in June of 1906.

For the semi-autos tested in the Army trials, there was a similar rimless cartridge, with a case length of 0.918" (also reported as 0.923"), loaded with the same 230-grain bullet as the revolver ammunition, and to the same muzzle velocity.

Attached is a drawing of the two varieties of cartridges used in the revolver tests.

TL
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Old 03-21-2012, 09:06 PM
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Boy, 7.2gr of Bullseye is a lot of powder. Wasn't the original 230gr .45acp loaded with 4.8 to 5gr of BE? No wonder the 06 rnds chronoed approx 1,000fps with a 230gr fmj........
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Old 03-21-2012, 09:15 PM
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That information about the FA 1907 trial .45 revolver cartridge is essentially what I and others have pieced together. I've seen, as previously stated, that some of these rounds have the bullet staked or punched in place as there were problems encountered with the bullets backing out under recoil. But the real question is, is this cartridge the same as the mysterious so-called .45 (S&W) Special or .45 Frankford? And what were the S&W TLs used in the trial chambered for - .45 Colt or something else?

There was also considerable trouble with the FA ammunition quality, and some handgun submitters requested, and were granted, the latitude to use commercial ammunition made to the same Army specifications. I don't know what the headstamps of the substitute UMC commercial .45 Revolver ammunition were - maybe .45 Special?

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Old 03-22-2012, 12:00 AM
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There are presently some Frankford Model of 1909 .45 Cartridges listed on an Auction Site who's initials would be something like 'gb'.

Search term '45 Colt Model 1909 Frankford" would likely bring it up, since that is the listing title phrase.

I know these are not the 'mystery' Cartridge in question, but, it is kind of fun to see what the '09 looked like anyway.

I have no affiliation with the seller and I am not promoting the item.
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Old 03-22-2012, 01:15 AM
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Thanks triplelock for the dimensions. Although the two cartridges shown are different with different bullets, I notice they are both rimmed.

If we could only get the chamber dimensions of a 45 Special/45 Frankford chambered Triplelock.
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Old 03-22-2012, 11:27 AM
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How about that line stating that the hammer and trigger were lubricated with, "sputum". Good ol' spit.
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Old 03-22-2012, 11:44 AM
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Here are some dimensions taken from Triple Lock SN 09. It is a pre-production item made for the army trials. It has a 6 1/2 inch barrel with no caliber markings. This gun was part of my brother's collection.

Headspace in gun: .055 (cylinder pressed forward)
Cylinder OD: 1.694
Clinder length: 1.580 (1917 cylinder is 1.535
chamber depth: .895
Chamber dia: .477
Throat dia of cyl: .454
The front of the chamber is tapered like any other rimmed cartridge chamber.

I will try to attach some pictures. The third round has no headstamp, all others have the FA 4 06.

Ken
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File Type: jpg FA 4 060001.jpg (30.7 KB, 149 views)
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Old 03-22-2012, 12:33 PM
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Exactly what is meant by chamber depth, i.e., is that the measurement from the rear face of the cylinder to a step in the chamber? Is there a recess in the chamber for a rim? Will a .45 Colt case chamber in it?
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Old 03-22-2012, 12:46 PM
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Chamber depth is from the rear of the cylinder to the step. There is no rim recess. .45 Colt, Schofield, and 1909 are all too long to fit this cylinder. There was a box with this gun. Stamped in ink was, I believe the number 13. The usual end label was the name ".45 Special". I have heard of other boxes labeled this way but have not personally seen them. S&W must have thought that this cartridge would become regular production.

Ken
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Old 03-22-2012, 12:52 PM
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If that's the situation, then it seems to be likely that the TLs used for the 1907 test were actually chambered specifically for the 1906 FA experimental round and for nothing else. Is there a caliber marking anywhere on the revolver?
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Old 03-22-2012, 01:23 PM
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Triple Locks, serial # 2 and #9,both formerly in my possession, ( yes, #9, Number 09 is a different gun) are both chambered in .45 S&W Special. No caliber markings on either gun. I believe S&W labeled a quantity of boxes with the end label that says "S&W .45 Special" in the anticipation that the cartridge & revolvers would be come cataloged items, as more of such boxes have turned up over the years, than the guns. Ed.

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