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03-10-2010, 02:28 AM
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Hand ejectors and heavy duties
Was the .38/44 and its associated frame size essentially the granddaddy to the modern .357 mag and the N-frame? Seems to be my interpretation of it all, just want a 2nd opinion on the subject.
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03-10-2010, 04:00 AM
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The HD was the grandaddy to the .357 - it was a .38 loaded hot on a .44 frame to handle the pressure. I believe this came along in the late 20s (see Aspenhills Expert Commentary on this subject). The 38/44 was NOT the grandaddy of the N frame, because it already existed in the New Century Triplelock, 2nd Model Hand Ejector, and Model of 1917. I believe (once again, my recollection) the New Century came out in 1907.
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03-10-2010, 09:02 AM
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Yes, Bubbajoe45 is correct. The 38/44 S&W Special had 158-160 gr bullets loaded to 1150fps which is about what today's .357 factory loads are. The fact that the bullet powder combination was accurate and deadly, led to them lengthening the case which added more space which equated to more speed and power. i know the RM group don't like hearing it, but the Heavy Duty was the father of the RM and the quaility of the guns were both top notch.
Bill
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03-10-2010, 09:49 AM
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It is my understanding that police demanded a more powerful caliber than the 38 Special (widely in use by police at the time) because so many criminals were escaping in automobiles and the 38 Special was unable to penetrate the car bodies. Colt responded in 1929 with the 38 Super, which was just the 38 ACP jacked up to around 1250 FPS. S&W's response to the Colt was the 38-44 Heavy Duty built on the N frame using the shrouded ejector, a feature appreciated by cops. The 38-44 is simply the 38 Special loaded to 1150 FPS, just as the Colt Super was nothing more than a hot loading of an existing cartridge.
In 1935 S&W took the next logical step and upped the ante by introducing the 357 Magnum.
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03-10-2010, 10:13 AM
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Forgive my FNG ignorance, but what is the RM group?
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03-10-2010, 10:19 AM
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Registered Magnum
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03-10-2010, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kscardsfan
Forgive my FNG ignorance, but what is the RM group?
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Means Registered Magnum, but I've never heard of any of them disputing that the .38-44 inspired it. That is well known in S&W circles, and is well documented.
BTW, the .38/44 arrived in 1930. And it probably was an S&W response to Colt's .38 Super auto of the previous year.
T-Star
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03-10-2010, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kscardsfan
Forgive my FNG ignorance, but what is the RM group?
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RM = "Registered Magnum"
Dave
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03-10-2010, 11:30 PM
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Much appreciated guys. I should've known that but the last 2 days have been spent with lots of windshield time belting out willie nelson, asleep at the wheel, and various other classic country staples in my half way across the country drive. So I do have an alibi for not being in a real "gunny" state of mind lately
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03-11-2010, 02:05 AM
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Yea, TStar has it 1930 for HD. Interesting how the 38/44 went on to the 357, while the .38 Super wasn't all that successful until it's later adoption by target shooters. I guess the difference was that people (cops in particular) trusted revolvers!
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03-11-2010, 09:21 AM
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The Super enjoyed moderate popularity among cops and was very popular in Mexico.
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03-12-2010, 11:29 PM
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Didn't Melvin Purvis favor the .38Super? T44
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03-12-2010, 11:47 PM
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As I understand it, the principal reason for the popularity in Mexico was that it was forbidden for non-military personnel to own military caliber weapons, such as the .45 ACP and 9mm Parabellum.
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03-13-2010, 05:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigolddave
As I understand it, the principal reason for the popularity in Mexico was that it was forbidden for non-military personnel to own military caliber weapons, such as the .45 ACP and 9mm Parabellum.
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I think Mexican citizens are currently limited to owning handguns with a max nominal bore size equal to that of the .38 Special (non-magnum!) and the .38 Super is likely the most potent factory loaded ammo available to our amigos south of the border. That would certainly explain the Super's continued popularity down there.
Mark
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Last edited by wheelgun610; 03-13-2010 at 05:17 PM.
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03-13-2010, 11:41 PM
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My understanding re early popularity of the .38 Super was that it was a steady seller because it was a powerful cartridge but the Colt Gov't/cartridge combo was not that accurate. Colt headspaced the cartridge on the semi-rim which made for less-than-optimum accuracy. Once current target shooters had barrels made that headspaced on the mouth of the cartridge, the true capability became apparent. Personally, I think it's a really good cartridge. Anybody shed some light on this? Maybe if the .38 Super had been developed more to it's capability in the past, the .357 Sig might not have come into being? Just a thought. (Did some research-the .357 Sig is a .357-sized bullet, autoloading cartridge capable of being fired in a 9mm/40 S&W format (size) pistol; the .38 Super (.356 bullet) was designed for the larger 1911 pistol format. So just one difference right there.)
Last edited by big50_1; 03-18-2010 at 02:00 PM.
Reason: Make clearer; add some more
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12-01-2012, 06:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaxonPig
It is my understanding that police demanded a more powerful caliber than the 38 Special (widely in use by police at the time) because so many criminals were escaping in automobiles and the 38 Special was unable to penetrate the car bodies. Colt responded in 1929 with the 38 Super, which was just the 38 ACP jacked up to around 1250 FPS. S&W's response to the Colt was the 38-44 Heavy Duty built on the N frame using the shrouded ejector, a feature appreciated by cops. The 38-44 is simply the 38 Special loaded to 1150 FPS, just as the Colt Super was nothing more than a hot loading of an existing cartridge.
In 1935 S&W took the next logical step and upped the ante by introducing the 357 Magnum.
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It is my understanding that the car bodies were "bulletproof" to the 38 caliber and thus the .38 S&W Special (what we call the 38 special) was born, not the .357.
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12-01-2012, 08:03 PM
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Some of y'all know I'm not bashful about carrin' a brace of like pistols....
I'm liken this pair with my stout load of 2400 under a 173 gr. hards cast Keith style SWC in new 38 Spl brass.
38/44 Outdoorsman & a 1st year Registered Magnum.
Su Amigo,
Dave
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12-01-2012, 08:08 PM
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Railroad Bill preferred the .38/44
Got a thirty-special in a forty-five frame,
I can't miss 'cause I got dead aim.
Railroad Bill by Ramblin Jack Elliot
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12-01-2012, 08:22 PM
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If we're talking about ancestors here, the Patriarch of the N-frame Clan is the Triple Lock. The 38-44 HD would be Jacob to the TL's Abraham.
As for the 38 Super, it was (at the time) Colt's desperate attempt to stay relevant with the Government Model semi-auto pistol. At the time, S&W wasn't making much of an effort at the rather small semi-auto market (at least for LEOs) so it would make sense that they would choose to develop a super revolver for the LEO community and that it would be based on the existing 38 Special and their large frame that had served them so well. The HD and then 357 make perfect sense in that light, and of course S&W never resorted to the 38 Stupor! That's my story and I'm sticking to it!
Froggie
PS I still wouldn''t mind owning a Triple Lock to fullfil that particular fantasy of S&W collectors!
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12-01-2012, 08:45 PM
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The .38/44 Heavy Duty arrived in 1930 and the .38/44 Outdoorsman in 1931 both shot hotter loads but not what S&W really wanted or expected by Colonel Douglas B. Wilson so together with Phil Sharp and Elmer Kieth a new load was started which was expected of 1400 fps and over 700 ftlbs of energy so in 1935 the .357 started on a custom ordeer basis only with the buyer ordering the specs wanted on the revolver. They also started the Registered certificates then so each buyer got a return envrlope and card to fill out and return to S&W for the certificate. Prewar .357s where offeredin 23 different barrel lengths, six main sight choice plus a King sight and dozen of other choices , blue, nickeled or engraved and with the standard magna grips...amazing guns hard to find any two prewar .357s alike.
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12-01-2012, 08:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sniper007
It is my understanding that the car bodies were "bulletproof" to the 38 caliber and thus the .38 S&W Special (what we call the 38 special) was born, not the .357.
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Welcome to the Forum, sniper007.
The .38 S&W special was introduced in 1899. It was an improvement on the .38 Long Colt cartridge, which was the US military service round at the time.
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12-01-2012, 08:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keith44spl
Some of y'all know I'm not bashful about carrin' a brace of like pistols....
I'm liken this pair with my stout load of 2400 under a 173 gr. hards cast Keith style SWC in new 38 Spl brass.
38/44 Outdoorsman & a 1st year Registered Magnum.
Su Amigo,
Dave
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I've not seen an Outdoorsman set along side of an RM before. This may be blasphemous, but I can't say I prefer the RM over the OD. Are they both 6 1/2" or was the OD trimmed up a bit? Ether way, gorgeous guns Dave!
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Last edited by A10; 12-01-2012 at 08:56 PM.
Reason: clarity
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12-01-2012, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A10
I've not seen an Outdoorsman set along side of an RM before. This may be blasphemous, but I can't say I prefer the RM over the OD. Are they both 6 1/2" or was the OD trimmed up a bit? Ether way, gorgeous guns Dave!
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Ah,
It's jest the angle of the photo....The OD is a 5" and the RM is a tad over the 5 inch mark.
Dave
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12-02-2012, 12:00 AM
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A 5" OD.....now that there's the bees knees!
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12-02-2012, 01:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by big50_1
My understanding re early popularity of the .38 Super was that it was a steady seller because it was a powerful cartridge but the Colt Gov't/cartridge combo was not that accurate. Colt headspaced the cartridge on the semi-rim which made for less-than-optimum accuracy. Once current target shooters had barrels made that headspaced on the mouth of the cartridge, the true capability became apparent. Personally, I think it's a really good cartridge. Anybody shed some light on this? Maybe if the .38 Super had been developed more to it's capability in the past, the .357 Sig might not have come into being? Just a thought. (Did some research-the .357 Sig is a .357-sized bullet, autoloading cartridge capable of being fired in a 9mm/40 S&W format (size) pistol; the .38 Super (.356 bullet) was designed for the larger 1911 pistol format. So just one difference right there.)
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I own a very nice 57 Guvment Super 38, and it will shoot, more likely ammo, as WW white box ain't bad and 125gr Silvertips are the favorite, it headspaces on the semi rim. One of those rural legends like 45 LC won't shoot, it will, no problem through my 25-5 or either one of two New Frontiers I used to own. Certain gun cranks like to sing these songs for fun and profit. There is an element of truth to both these stories, but my Daddy said don't believe anything your hear, and only half of what you see, seems about right to me, miss you Pappy. Billy
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12-02-2012, 01:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A10
A 5" OD.....now that there's the bees knees!
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A10,
I'm not bashful with them swaged HPs and the 2400 neither...
They's sure make the ponies jump a right smart
Gives purty good account of it's self.
Su Amigo,
Dave
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Last edited by keith44spl; 12-02-2012 at 01:31 AM.
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12-02-2012, 11:33 AM
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Here is a 1911 .38 Super that shipped to my wife's grandfather when he was the sheriff in Titus Co., TX. We still have the factory box with the tiny "Ivory" label on the end. The Safety Hammerless 4th Mod. was his backup. Shown here with his diamond stick-pin and his Sheriff and Rail Road Special Agent badges. His name was Quillie Clayton Gaddis...doesn't get much better than that for an old time Texas lawman of his breed.
I always love to see Dave's McGivern Outdoorsman, too. (I have this sneaking feeling that 'ol Dave may have been the one who should get the credit for Ed McG. coming up with that variation. )
Bob
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12-02-2012, 06:18 PM
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"Railroad Bill preferred the .38/44
Got a thirty-eight special in a forty-five frame,
I can't miss 'cause I got dead aim.
Railroad Bill by Ramblin Jack Elliot"
I haven't heard Railroad Bill for a great many years, and had forgotten about it. Lots of legend about Railroad Bill, allegedly a black railroad bandit in Alabama. But he was on the run in the mid-1890s, and couldn't have used a .38 Special as it had not yet been invented, despite the lyrics to the song. And he supposedly used a rifle.
By the way, if anyone wants a really potent .38 Super, just load it up with 9X23mm cartridges - about 1400+ ft/sec with a 124 grain bullet. I've fired many of them.
Last edited by DWalt; 12-02-2012 at 06:26 PM.
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1911, 2nd model, 357 magnum, cartridge, colt, ejector, hand ejector, military, n-frame, registered magnum, sig arms, triplelock |
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