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S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


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Old 06-20-2010, 07:59 AM
Hawk36 Hawk36 is offline
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My friend passed away June 6 and his family gave me a Nichol plated 38 S&W. The shine is gone from the barrel. The gun seems to be in excellent firing condition. I thought it was a 38 Special, but found out it is not. The closest thing I can find points to it being a 38 Smith & Wesson Super Police revolver. The serial number on the bottom of the grip begins with a "V" followed by 6 numbers 327_ _ _. I found out the "V" stands for "Victory." When opening the cylinder there is the same S/N on the face of it. Once opened, and looking at the usual place for the Model No., the following is found in two locations: 74926. On the left side of the front sight are the words "Parker Hale," then under that the word "England." On the right hand side of the barrel is "38 S&W CTG." On the right hand side under the cylinder is "Made in U.S.A." I don't believe the grips are original with the gun.

I went to one of our gun shops and told the gunsmith about the revolver. He said it was from WWII era, but he had never heard of those being in Nichol plate. So, I am looking for the following:

1. Was the gun used by the British in WWII?
2. Was it made during WWII for the British but used by a US Police force instead -- or US Military Police?
3. Was it retooled for the 38 Special cartridge and if so, how do I tell?
4. If not, where can I buy a box of 50 just to shoot it and then have cases for reloading?
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Last edited by Hawk36; 06-20-2010 at 08:08 AM.
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Old 06-20-2010, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawk36 View Post
My friend passed away June 6 and his family gave me a Nichol plated 38 S&W. The shine is gone from the barrel. The gun seems to be in excellent firing condition. I thought it was a 38 Special, but found out it is not. The closest thing I can find points to it being a 38 Smith & Wesson Super Police revolver. The serial number on the bottom of the grip begins with a "V" followed by 6 numbers 327_ _ _. I found out the "V" stands for "Victory." When opening the cylinder there is the same S/N on the face of it. Once opened, and looking at the usual place for the Model No., the following is found in two locations: 74926. On the left side of the front sight are the words "Parker Hale," then under that the word "England." On the right hand side of the barrel is "38 S&W CTG." On the right hand side under the cylinder is "Made in U.S.A." I don't believe the grips are original with the gun.

I went to one of our gun shops and told the gunsmith about the revolver. He said it was from WWII era, but he had never heard of those being in Nichol plate. So, I am looking for the following:

1. Was the gun used by the British in WWII?
2. Was it made during WWII for the British but used by a US Police force instead -- or US Military Police?
3. Was it retooled for the 38 Special cartridge and if so, how do I tell?
4. If not, where can I buy a box of 50 just to shoot it and then have cases for reloading?
Hi, and welcome!

This is a Victory Model as you noted. It is officially a .38/200 British contract gun, which is the .38 S & W cartridge as stamped on the right barrel with a 200 gr bullet. Parker-Hale modified many of these after the war - yours has an aftermarket nickel finish, different stocks, the barrel has been shortened and a front sight/ramp added.

It has probably been rechambered to .38 Special. Look inside each charge hole from the rear of the cylinder for a shoulder about halfway in, or try to fully seat a .38 Special round. An unmodified cylinder will have the shoulder and a Special will not seat fully. If a .38 Special seats, it is a potential problem, as most guns were modified by simply boring the chambers straight. The S & W round is wider, so the Special case will expand and sometimes bulge/split/crack with firing. .38 S & W ammo is available, but about $30 per 50.

The V and six digits is the serial number, the five digit one is a factory internal code that shows your frame and cylinder were fitted together and are original. Hope this is helpful.
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Old 06-20-2010, 09:34 AM
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Welcome,I think the the large prewar n frame 38/44 heavy duty was called the 38 super police when it first came out.designed too shoot the hv 38 special loads.heres a picture of one here.Regards Lowhog
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Old 06-20-2010, 09:49 AM
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Welcome,I think the the large prewar n frame 38/44 heavy duty was called the 38 super police when it first came out.designed too shoot the hv 38 special loads.heres a picture of one here.Regards Lowhog
The 38 S&W 200 grain load was also called the super police. I wouldnt want to get a 38/44 load in an old Victory that was chambered for a 38 S&W and bored for a 38 spec.

I think I read some where on here a short while back that the Parker & Hale conversions were nice quality that were believed to have bored and sleeved the cylinder for 38 spec.
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Old 06-20-2010, 02:15 PM
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OK, I tried a 38 Special round and it fits flush in the cylinder. There is some play which isn't bad, but it seems to be a little more than on another 38 Special which I used to compare. Although the 38 Special rounds may split, bulge, or crack when fired, is it safe to shoot the gun with a medium load?

A book at the gun shop said these pistols were worth from $200 on the low side (rough with rust spots) to around $600 on the high side. I took this to mean if they were not modified. Since this one has been modified and the Nichol plating is faded on the barrel, but everything else seems to be in working order, what would this one be worth (ballpark figure)?

BTW, thanks fellows for the replies and information.

Last edited by Hawk36; 06-20-2010 at 02:17 PM. Reason: Correcting a word or two
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Old 06-20-2010, 02:45 PM
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You should be good with mild loads until you determine how it is chambered.
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Old 06-20-2010, 04:06 PM
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"...what would this one be worth (ballpark figure)?"

$125-$200, depending on your location
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Old 06-20-2010, 06:26 PM
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The Victory Models are fine guns but unfortunately many were butchered after the war. Bad plating jobs and unwise reaming of the chambers are common. The plastic "stag" grips are also quite common on these.

The gun will still shoot 38 S&W and this is the ammo that should be used in it. Although many of these guns are apparently fired with the incorrect 38 Special ammo I personally would not do it. If you reload, the 38 S&W cases are available and I load mine with standard .357" bullets (made for the 38 Special and 357 Magnum) which are slightly under-sized but seem to work fine in my guns. If you can get properly sized .360" bullets they would be even better. If you don't reload then the 38 S&W is not a good choice as ammo is hard to find and pricey.

In my opinion your gun is worth about $125. But that's just my opinion.
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Old 06-20-2010, 09:38 PM
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All good answers. Plus, if the hammer and trigger are nickeled they gun has almost always been refinished.
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Old 09-14-2010, 11:52 PM
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Try nothwest shooter supply in Washington state. They were the only ones I could find that had 38 s&w in stock. I just recieved mine today. They are larger in dia. then 38 special. You would be better off if you use the correct ammo. And a lot safer too. Good luck!
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Old 09-15-2010, 12:01 AM
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If your looking for 38 s&w ammo you might try northwest shooting supply in Washinton. I have been trying to buy some for a gun I recently bought and this was the only place i could find them in stock. The 38 s&w is a larger Dia. then a 38 short or 38 special. From everything I read you should not shoot them in a 38 s&w. Good luck
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Old 09-15-2010, 03:40 AM
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Your revolver looks to me like a Victory model that has been modified by a British gunsmith for civilian use.
After the War, there were thousands of pistols sloshing about in the UK and many were bought as surplus by UK dealers (it was difficult for civilians to buy them) and modified for target shooting or for export.
Parker-Hale did a lot of these conversions, they also sleeved them to .22 and guaranteed the group size.
I suspect it remains in 38-200 (.38 S&W) as 38-200 ammo was easier to obtain then, especially in the UK although the catalogue does state they could be had in either calibre. Yours is model number 2034 (S.384) in 38-200 or 2031 (SW.384) in 38 Spl.
If it is in 38 Spl, can you see any rings where the cylinder has been sleeved? I would like to know if they passed proof without sleeving.
They also sold the parts (sights etc) to other dealers in the UK and the USA to do their own modifications (sort of like a UK based Brownells). See the attached copy of a page from the Parker-Hale catalogue of (about) 1968. There was also an adjustable rearsight mounted on the 5th screw hole which would fit S&Ws without gunsmithing and the colt equivalent with one hold being drilled.
If Parker-Hale did the work the revolver will carry British civilian proofs on the barrel, cylinder and frame. If you can, please take close ups of these so we can see. I expect the nickel plate was a later addition; although Parker-Hale were capable of doing this it is not listed in the catalogue.
All in all, an historic firearm and worthy of more study. Congratulations on having such an interesting revolver.
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Old 09-17-2010, 05:04 AM
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If a 38 S&W round fits in the chambers, they have not been sleeved and I would not shoot 38 Specials in the gun. If 38 S&W does not fit in the chamber it has been sleeved and you can only shoot 38 special or 38 Long Colt in the gun. 38 Long Colt was the predessesor cartridge to the 38 Special and less powerful. But best of all, it's redily available because it's a ressurected obsolete cartridge now common and loaded by all the Cowboy Action Shooter ammo makers: Black Hills, Ten X and UltraMax. That's what I would shoot in your gun if 38 S&W doesn't fit.
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Old 09-17-2010, 02:05 PM
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Ammo is scarce; factories are still selling all the "mainstream" ammo they can crank out so older rounds like this are getting pushed back further and further in the production schedules. Whats out there is probably going to be all that is available for a while.
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Old 07-09-2012, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pbxtech81 View Post
If your looking for 38 s&w ammo you might try northwest shooting supply in Washinton. I have been trying to buy some for a gun I recently bought and this was the only place i could find them in stock. The 38 s&w is a larger Dia. then a 38 short or 38 special. From everything I read you should not shoot them in a 38 s&w. Good luck
I have two boxes of these for sale due to the fact I have a .38 Special
I know what the box says but the round says " REM-UMC 38 S&W
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Old 07-09-2012, 04:44 PM
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I have two boxes of these for sale due to the fact I have a .38 Special
I know what the box says but the round says " REM-UMC 38 S&W


Show a cartridge out of that box, please. I suspect that you have .38 S&W Special ammo. This is not the .38 S&W "regular" being discussed for those old .38-200 revolvers.

If you really have the shorter .38 S&W ammo in that box, someone has replaced the original contents. Judging from the way the cartridges fit the box, I think they are probably .38 Specials.

Last edited by Texas Star; 07-09-2012 at 04:51 PM.
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Old 07-09-2012, 04:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by majex45 View Post
Your revolver looks to me like a Victory model that has been modified by a British gunsmith for civilian use.
After the War, there were thousands of pistols sloshing about in the UK and many were bought as surplus by UK dealers (it was difficult for civilians to buy them) and modified for target shooting or for export.
Parker-Hale did a lot of these conversions, they also sleeved them to .22 and guaranteed the group size.
I suspect it remains in 38-200 (.38 S&W) as 38-200 ammo was easier to obtain then, especially in the UK although the catalogue does state they could be had in either calibre. Yours is model number 2034 (S.384) in 38-200 or 2031 (SW.384) in 38 Spl.
If it is in 38 Spl, can you see any rings where the cylinder has been sleeved? I would like to know if they passed proof without sleeving.
They also sold the parts (sights etc) to other dealers in the UK and the USA to do their own modifications (sort of like a UK based Brownells). See the attached copy of a page from the Parker-Hale catalogue of (about) 1968. There was also an adjustable rearsight mounted on the 5th screw hole which would fit S&Ws without gunsmithing and the colt equivalent with one hold being drilled.
If Parker-Hale did the work the revolver will carry British civilian proofs on the barrel, cylinder and frame. If you can, please take close ups of these so we can see. I expect the nickel plate was a later addition; although Parker-Hale were capable of doing this it is not listed in the catalogue.
All in all, an historic firearm and worthy of more study. Congratulations on having such an interesting revolver.

Majex45-

Thanks for the view of that catalog page.

BTW, I did "get" the "1066" bit in your location. I wonder how many Americans today know what it refers to. Actually, my son has written a rather good treatise of the Battle of Hastings on an Arms and Armour site.
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Old 07-10-2012, 09:46 AM
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Show a cartridge out of that box, please. I suspect that you have .38 S&W Special ammo. This is not the .38 S&W "regular" being discussed for those old .38-200 revolvers.

If you really have the shorter .38 S&W ammo in that box, someone has replaced the original contents. Judging from the way the cartridges fit the box, I think they are probably .38 Specials.
The .38 S&W is also called the .380 Rim and .38 S&W Corto.
I have REM UMC .38 S&W cartridges NOT .38 spc or .38 special rounds....38 S&W came from a former State Trooper who used a .357 also. Short fat lead ball 158 grain I think, or less.. I'll check. My guess is you may be able to shoot it in a .357.? Wrong box.
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Old 07-10-2012, 05:19 PM
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The .38 S&W is also called the .380 Rim and .38 S&W Corto.
I have REM UMC .38 S&W cartridges NOT .38 spc or .38 special rounds....38 S&W came from a former State Trooper who used a .357 also. Short fat lead ball 158 grain I think, or less.. I'll check. My guess is you may be able to shoot it in a .357.? Wrong box.

No, no! You are not SUPPOSED to be able to chamber it in a .357, although I had two Model 19's that were so sloppily made that they WOULD accept even a fired .38 S&W case from a real .38-200 revolver. That was during the Bangor-Punta ownership of S&W and QC left much to be desired. Mind you, I did not FIRE one of these shorter, fatter rounds.

The bullet weight is normally 145-146 grains, depending on manufacturer. The .38 SPECIAL is usually 158 grains in the standard loading, although Plus P has usually lighter bullets, except for the SWC-HP version. Both .38 S&W and .38 Special have been loaded in the past with 200 grain bullets.

Please post a photo of the headstamp of your ammo. Remember, much of the .38 Special is labled .38 S&W Special, as the firm developed both cartridges. The now-dormant .38 Colt Special was the same load, with a slightly flattened tip on the bullet. Its sole reason was to let Colt claim it as its own. Marketing rivalry...


Will someone please post photos of these rounds side-by-side? I'm afraid that someone here is going to use the wrong ammo.

Look at the pictured box. It is labled for.38 S&W Special! And the rounds fit it as they should, almost to the top of the box.

The fact that some state cop had some ammo means nothing. Many cops have very vague ideas about ammo. The last three that I asked here had no idea which bullet weight they had in their 9mms. One had to call his girlfriend and get her to look in their closet and read the bullet weight and brand off the box! Unless an individual officer is coincidentally a gun enthusiast, they usually aren't a good source of firearms info. Neither are gun store clerks.

Last edited by Texas Star; 07-10-2012 at 06:54 PM.
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Old 07-10-2012, 06:09 PM
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+1 for everything Texas Star said!
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Old 07-11-2012, 05:35 AM
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If anyone is still looking for 38S&W ammo,
Ammo To Go has three different loadings in-stock.
That's where I've been getting mine, they're good
to deal with. 146 grain. Hope this helps, TACC1.
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Old 07-11-2012, 01:54 PM
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Here's a pic of what are NOT specials.
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Old 07-11-2012, 02:21 PM
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Here's a pic of what are NOT specials.


Hmpf... And these are the rounds that were in that .38 Special box? They looked newer. These look to be so old and so badly stored that I doubt that I'd fire them.

But they are .38 S&W...

I hope everyone here knows that the Colt & S&W revolvers with swing-out cylinders and the Webley and Enfield .38 breaktops with the stirrup lever are stronger than the old S&W, Iver Johnson, etc. break-top guns.
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Old 07-11-2012, 03:31 PM
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Here's a pic of what are NOT specials.
Hi Wiredog,

I am certainly not trying to start an argument here, I'm just confused. And I have to agree with Texas Star, the cartridges in your 38 S&W Special box just can't be 38 S&W cartridges unless the box has a false bottom to raise them up in the box. 38 S&Ws would sit almost a 1/4" lower in a 38 S&W Special box. Like you said they are "short fatties" like those in your 2nd photo. When I enhance the photo of your box at least one looks like part of it's headstamp reads "Spl".

Could I impose upon you to double check the headstamps of the cartridges in BOTH of the boxes that you have?

Also just FYI UMC means Union Metallic Cartridge Company.

Thanks,
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Old 07-12-2012, 08:15 AM
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Thanks Jim, sorry for the caps lock on NOT. Didn't mean to have that perceived as me being pissy. I was too lazy to change the Metallic Cartridge Co. after I realized I was wrong. The picture is not of the rounds I have but of rounds that are the same but older and worn out. .38 S&W is an old round with about a .361" bullet diameter right? .38 Special .357".
What revolver's shot or shoot a .38 S&W round? Maybe it's a .38 super police round?

I'll have to bring the box in and take a pic but this guy sold me what he said was a detective special 3". in a model 28 box. I later found out it is a K-Frame 10-5 1968.
I'm a mellow dude so I'll get that box and post a pic and we'll figure it out.
Thanks.

Last edited by Wiredog; 07-12-2012 at 08:28 AM. Reason: addition
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Old 07-12-2012, 03:11 PM
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Thanks Jim, sorry for the caps lock on NOT. Didn't mean to have that perceived as me being pissy. I was too lazy to change the Metallic Cartridge Co. after I realized I was wrong. The picture is not of the rounds I have but of rounds that are the same but older and worn out. .38 S&W is an old round with about a .361" bullet diameter right? .38 Special .357".
What revolver's shot or shoot a .38 S&W round? Maybe it's a .38 super police round?

I'll have to bring the box in and take a pic but this guy sold me what he said was a detective special 3". in a model 28 box. I later found out it is a K-Frame 10-5 1968.
I'm a mellow dude so I'll get that box and post a pic and we'll figure it out.
Thanks.

No worries. If we see a photo of the gun, it'll be easy to tell a Det. Spcl. from a Model 10, also called the Military and Police.
S&W assigned model numbers beginning in 1957.

But you can easily tell if it's a Det. Spcl. by looking at the gun. It'll say Colt Detective Special on it. And Colts didn't have the front lock for the extractor under the barrel as Smiths do, other than very early M&P's from about 1899-1902.

Many guns have been chambered for .38 S&W, beginning with that company's own, from the 1870's-on. Many were cheap break-top items from H&R, Iver Johnson and some junk guns called Suicide Specials, as they were cheap and some bought them to use just one time.

In 1927, the British military adopted the caliber, loaded with a 200 grain lead bullet. Some "genius" told them that the load would stop men as well as ther .455. The main goal was to get a lighter gun that recoiled less, as few men in wartime would be trained well enough to handle recoil well in a handgun.

They adopted the Enfield No. 2 and issue had begun by 1930 or so. But wartime needs forced the UK to obtain many guns from Colt, Webley, and S&W.

Colt used the cartridge under another name, I think Colt New Police or .38 Short Colt. I'd have to look it up. Chambering was in the Police Positive, not to be confused with the Police Positive Special, which has a longer frame and was usually chambered in .38 Special. However, later Police Positive Specials have been made for the shorter ctg., probably for sales in Commonwealth countries.

The Banker's Special was another Colt in this chambering.
THe Detective Special is just a PPS with a two or three inch bbl. After 1932, it had a rounded butt. Intro. was in 1926.

That's all I have time for. I suggest that you obtain copies of some basic gun books. The best is probably Geoffrey Boothroyd's, "The Handgun", Crown Publishers, 1970. Elmer Keith's, "Sixguns" will also be of great help. Try to get the Revised edition of 1961, as it has info on newer guns, inc. the .44 Magnum.
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Old 07-13-2012, 08:21 AM
Wiredog Wiredog is offline
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Originally Posted by Texas Star View Post
No worries. If we see a photo of the gun, it'll be easy to tell a Det. Spcl. from a Model 10, also called the Military and Police.
S&W assigned model numbers beginning in 1957.

But you can easily tell if it's a Det. Spcl. by looking at the gun. It'll say Colt Detective Special on it. And Colts didn't have the front lock for the extractor under the barrel as Smiths do, other than very early M&P's from about 1899-1902.

Many guns have been chambered for .38 S&W, beginning with that company's own, from the 1870's-on. Many were cheap break-top items from H&R, Iver Johnson and some junk guns called Suicide Specials, as they were cheap and some bought them to use just one time.

In 1927, the British military adopted the caliber, loaded with a 200 grain lead bullet. Some "genius" told them that the load would stop men as well as ther .455. The main goal was to get a lighter gun that recoiled less, as few men in wartime would be trained well enough to handle recoil well in a handgun.

They adopted the Enfield No. 2 and issue had begun by 1930 or so. But wartime needs forced the UK to obtain many guns from Colt, Webley, and S&W.

Colt used the cartridge under another name, I think Colt New Police or .38 Short Colt. I'd have to look it up. Chambering was in the Police Positive, not to be confused with the Police Positive Special, which has a longer frame and was usually chambered in .38 Special. However, later Police Positive Specials have been made for the shorter ctg., probably for sales in Commonwealth countries.

The Banker's Special was another Colt in this chambering.
THe Detective Special is just a PPS with a two or three inch bbl. After 1932, it had a rounded butt. Intro. was in 1926.

That's all I have time for. I suggest that you obtain copies of some basic gun books. The best is probably Geoffrey Boothroyd's, "The Handgun", Crown Publishers, 1970. Elmer Keith's, "Sixguns" will also be of great help. Try to get the Revised edition of 1961, as it has info on newer guns, inc. the .44 Magnum.
Thanks for the info Texas Star!! I've done a lot of reading now since I got the Smith and more to go. The guy I bought it from had many guns of all types he was a State Trooper Ret. now, dislikes guns all over the house now, imagine that after 30+ years on the force. Probably sick of them, He still has his .357 though.
He mistakenly gave me rounds that don't fit my gun, He sold me the .38 spl Model 10-5 2" or 1 7/8" snubbie round butt in a Model 28 4" S&W box also told me it was a det special.

Free rounds are nice but confused the hell out of me. I think he was trying to get rid of everything and just put together a little package for $75.00. Also got a Mark II .22 Ruger, super accurate for $100.-

I looked at the ammo box this morning, no smart phone for picture, and it was .38 S&W Kleanbore 146 grain lead ball round. So what to do now with them. Can I shoot them out of a .357? NO, because of bullet diameter being .357 compared to S&W .38 @ .360" OD. The rounds look clean and stored properly.

So, I started playing detective and learning from this site and other sources. That I've confirmed my gun to be a model 10-5 by opening up the cylinder and looking on the arm where it's stamped. Learned it was a K-Frame and a great gun etc..The S&W .38 box of rounds through me for another loop when they didn't fit the .38 spl, scratches head...***? It says .38 on the box and S&W wth?? I was confused as to the many styles of .38 rounds and their bullet diameter.

Thanks for your advice on the books also..
Dan
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Old 07-13-2012, 02:18 PM
Texas Star Texas Star is offline
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Dan-

You have two good guns if they are in nice condition. The snub Model 10 will bring a premium over longer barrels, with some buyers. It should make a good house gun or carry piece, if you are licensed. The Ruger .22 is one of my favorites, and the best buy available in a .22 handgun, I think. For $100, you got a major deal on it. And many of us prefer the MK II to the current MK III, which has a loaded chamber indicator that is a little obtrusive and has cuts for it that may allow additional dust, etc. to enter the gun.

You can read about ammo for short-barrelled .38 Specials in our Ammo forum. Just scroll down until you see it.

The .38 S&W ammo can perhaps be sold at a a gun show or given to someone who has a gun for it. Or, you may someday pick up a nice Webley or S&W Victory Model .38-200 chambered for it. It isn't very powerful, but the guns are pieces of history.

You can probably find the books on Amazon.com for a lot less than specialty gun book dealers charge. I think you'll be amazed at the wealth of inormation in them, especially the Boothroyd book. I've seen it sell for as little as $12.95, which has to be the book bargain of all time!

I'm pleased to have been of help.
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Old 07-16-2012, 09:13 AM
Wiredog Wiredog is offline
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Texas Star-

I am certified CCW. per. DD214 + hunter safety in 1985...lol.


Thank you for all of your information, it's been a great help. I'll definetly pick that book up!!

I love my subbie, VERY good condition, mininal scratchs from the cylinder going in and out other than that it's pristine, locked and wrapped in that wax paper with a silicon packet in there too to soak up moisture. Still blued.

I sold the MK II to a friend who gave me $300 to go buy something for him. I sold it to him for $160.OO (friend) and gave him the change, I know that was cheap. I'm not selfish. He said he shot a dragonfly with it. lol. It was a really nice feeling gun also but I had to bring him something, that's what was left..What a nice guy I am hey?


The former trooper used to clean his guns almost everynight according to his son.

Thanks Again!!
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