Not wanting to hijack the other thread, I have a few questions. Just how rare are the 2" M&P's? Any idea how many were produced? What would the approximate value be of one in, lets say 85%? It's not reblued and has no star at the serial no. nor any return dates stamped in the grip frame. Just holster wear and a graying grip frame. It does have a perfect action and timing and lockup are perfect.

I picked this one up a few years back off of an auction site. It was wearing a pair of post war magnas, I had these grips that it wears now. I appreciate all replys.

I sent for a letter today.






I received the letter from Roy today. It states: We have researched your Smith & Wesson .38 Military & Police Model of 1905 Fourth Change, State of Massachusetts Contract, caliber .38 S&W Special, revolver in company records which indicate that your handgun, with serial number 626519 was shipped from our factory on April 20, 1934, and delivered to George F. Harold Co., New York City, NY for the State of Massachusetts. The records indicate that this revolver was shipped with a 2 inch barrel, blue finish, and checkered black hard rubber round butt grips. This shipment was for 15 units all in the same configuration and they were billed at $19.07 each.

Now I guess I gotta find a pair of correct grips.

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Big Fred

There is one known order to produce 250 units. They weren't all built at the same time, and I'm not sure we know that all 250 were completed before WWII interrupted standard commercial production. There may have been some very short production runs for which we have no separate documentary evidence. At any rate, they are rarely seen and very much sought after by a few collectors. There won't be a standard price for an average unit. Bidding will determine the value of a particular revolver as it becomes available. I have seen them advertised at $2000-3000. I would love to have a prewar snubnose M&P, but given my general pre-war interests there other uncommon models that I would spend that much money on before I would go after one of these.

Yours looks like a very nice specimen, by the way.

I suppose fakes are a fact of life where value is so high. Anybody in the market for one would have to make sure he's not looking at a later two-inch barrel and shorter ejector rod added to a standard 1930s M&P frame.

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David Wilson

How about a serial number range?

Probably ought to get a set of the hard rubber stocks for this one, regardless.

Rarity? My estimatiuon would be that they're not common per se, but certainly not so hard to find as, say, a Registered Magnum or a K-22/40. Value? Pricing seems to be all over the place on these. To some collectors, they're just another Military & Police, while others think the snubnose concept was a significant development and that the early ones ought to command a substantial premium.

Edit: I'd disagree with David on the notion that very few of these were made. I base my evaluation on the rarity of these partly on how widely spread out the serial number range and shipping dates are for known examples.

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SWCA #590
"Colligo ergo sum"

I wanted to add the serial no. in the original post and forgot. It is 626519. Also wanted to add that there is hardly any cylinder line, it was definately carried much more than fired. I should have got it lettered when I bought it, but with the recent posts about the 2" M&P's it got me to thinking, I had no idea they were that rare. I can't wait to see what the letter says.

I've seen RM's for sale, even NRM's, I have one of each, but this is the only 2" Prewar M&P I've ever seen. I guess that shoulda told me something.

Thanks for the info. I'll post what the letter says when it arrives.

Thanks

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Big Fred

I've seen about 9 registered magnums for sale in the last 3 years.
How many pre war factory 2" M&Ps? ZERO!

There is a clear distinction as to configuration vs rarity of this model, round butt, blue being the most often seen. Given the condition, I would have no problem being in the $750 + range. High condition examples will approach $2K with nickel a little more and square butts about 50% more than that.

Noone knows for sure how many were made but they are not common and in high condition, are rare. I know I've been collecting this variant for at least 11 years and have bought every one I have found for sale. I own 10. That puts them in the "pretty darn hard to find" category to me.

Nice gun, thanks for showing it and if you ever think it needs a new home, you know who to call.

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Pace

some where in the engineering orders I think there was a order to make 250 or 500 2 inch Barrels. I think the date was 1930 or 1931. its been a few years since I saw the paper work.
The one I have is 626138 and it is open in the records.
Jim Fisher

Hi Jim

Order was for 250, blue, round butt, issued on June 29, 1933. Is yours a blue round butt?

Mike

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Pace

Neal & Jinks, p. 236:

June 29, 1933: Order to make 250 .38 H.E. 2" barrels for round butt blue revolvers per H. Wesson.

So I misremembered that the count of 250 was specifically connected to round butt blue revolvers. That leaves room for several dozen more units of the nickel and square butt persuasions. (Though of course some of the 250 barrels intended for RB blue revolvers might have been mounted on blue SB frames instead.)

I still don't think there can have been more than about 300-400 of these prewar snubnose M&Ps, tops. If more were made, where are they all?

EDITED TO ADD: Ah, Mike reported in while I was still researching and typing.

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David Wilson

I'd interpret this as authorizing an initial production run that I believe was followed by others. I'm going to post a question to Roy on this topic.

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SWCA #590
"Colligo ergo sum"

Mike
My revolver is a blue round butt 97% with black hard rubber grips all original.
My guess is it was given to a salesman that did not make a entry in the shipping records.
Jim

Roy (for those of you who may not know, I'm referring to Roy Jinks, Smith & Wesson's Historian) has replied to my query. His estimate, without researching the records, is that a total of 1,500 2' barreled Military & Police revolvers were produced in the 1933 to 1941 period.

As to the question you've posed, I think it's important to remember that this configuration of the M&P would have been typically purchased as a "working" gun, and thus much more often than not carried a lot. It's my understanding that many were acquired by law enforcement agencies, also. That combination of circumstances suggests that the survival rate might be somewhat lower than the norm.

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SWCA #590
"Colligo ergo sum"

Excellent information, though a little unexpected to me. Thank you for bringing up the question with the best source of information one could hope for.

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David Wilson

I have documented the occurrence of these for years and still update that data each time one shows up. My intent has always been to write an article once I have a sample of 100 in the database. Total as of this morning is 54. I may not live long enough.

Seems low survival rate might be an understatement.

If anyone has one that I may not have in the data, please shoot me a PM or email and I'll add it. Please include finish, grip configuration (RB or SB), grip type (black rubber or wood), shipping date and location if lettered. Also, if lettered, how many in the shipment of that configuration.

I don't track who owns them, just the gun data.

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Pace

Mike, very interesting numbers. Thank you for providing them.

For the last four years I have been tracking the similarly uncommon Prewar .22/32 Kit Gun (mfd. 1936-1940, with a few shipping in 1941). As in the case of the prewar 2" M&P, exact production numbers have not been determined, but estimates have been made on statistical grounds. Some collectors have said they think no more than 1000 Prewar KGs were produced; after running some simple cluster analysis on serial number ranges of known specimens, I think the true number is between 1200 and 1500. As in the case of the model you study and collect, the question of how many have survived is a central issue in their current scarcity.

I have tabulated 55 different serial numbers of these Prewar KGs, and I have seen pictures of or references to four to six other guns whose serial numbers I was not able to trap. (I was originally careless about taking note of specimens I could not number, so my count on them is a little vague.) My impression is that Kit Guns change hands today a little more frequently than do the prewar 2" M&Ps, though I am doing my part to slow down that velocity in coming years.

If there is any correlation to be drawn between the statistics of these two models, I can see that Roy's total production estimate of 1500 2" M&Ps is not out of the question.

In any event, there is no question that there are now far fewer specimens of either model for collectors to chase. I think Goony's point about "working" LE guns is a good one; there may well be different loss rates for different models of handgun, and one would expect different manners of loss as well. I have suspected that more than a few KGs ended up in rivers or lost in the woods while being pocket carried or "kit" carried as the company marketing proposed.

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David Wilson

When I was a kid in the 1950's, I read a book about the FBI, probably one of that series of informative books by C.B. Colby, if you recall them. It had a photo of a wall of guns in their reference library in the main FBI building of that time, in D.C. One gun on the wall was a snub M&P, with rubber grips. (Yes, I began studying guns at a tender age, and i did recognize it.) So, we know where one of those went!

Also, those early snub barrels are distinctive, with the lettering and the half-nickel front sight. Those persisted into some examples made in the 1950's, I think, after the "squiggle" (Speed) hammer appeared and postwar Magna grips. I strongly suspect that S&W made enough barrels in the 1930's to tide them over to making at least some postwar snub M&P's. That suggests that prewar production of that version wasn't vast. I believe that those wanting a compact .38 preferred the smaller Colt Detective Special or they carried the smaller Terrier .38 in .38 S&W. The arrival of the Chief's Special in 1950 was surely a joyous occasion for those wanting a smaller .38 Special S&W!

Salesman samples can letter as such, but only because Roy knows who those individuals were when a gun was shipped to them. But if as you conjecture, the salesman was given the gun while at the factory, then yes, it could show as "open on the books." More intriguing possibilities are that the gun was presented to a dignitary while at the factory, or diverted for testing or publicity purposes. Or, with that short barrel, maybe it was a "lunchbox" gun. Of course, the most likely cause - a simple clerical error.

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SWCA #590
"Colligo ergo sum"

First, Roy said it is a "difficult question" and he GUESSED "it is about 1500 units". He went on to say his guess was not based on facts.
I think that is a high guess.
Like Mike, I have observed, or TRIED to observe them for decades.
They just ain't out there.

The June 1933 order is an order to make 250 barrels, not guns. I do not believe they built 250 guns that year and stacked them in the vaults.
S&W had been "bitten by the turkey" enough already! Remember the market FAILURES they had already been through-
44 DA- still catalogged up to about WW I, even though the frames were built before 1898...
Triple Lock - yes, even the TL was a market turkey.
Revolving Rifle
35 Auto
32 Auto
22 Straightline
32/20 HE - remember, in 1933, there are 32/20's stacked in the vault with non-medallion grips, even though the grips had silver meds from 29-30 on....

Before the 50's, 2" barrels were not a common choice. In the early decades of the HE's, FOUR inch barrels were considered "short"! Note that you are less likely to see 4" M&P's and 32/20's before WW I than the 5, 6, or 6-1/2.
4" TL's are rare.
5" TL's are scarce.
Most 44-2nd's are 6-1/2.
The 44-3rd's are mostly 5", and that would be because W&K planned from the outset to be selling them to LEO's, so the 5" was considered plenty small enough for daily holster duty!
The 3-1/2 Mag had not yet appeared in 33.

Sure, there had been some short top-breaks, notably the "Bicycle " guns, but they are rare, and probably built to order. Not many were bought.

So, we arrive at my point-
The TWO inch M&P was NOT a high demand item. People were not clamoring for them. I suspect there were never more than a very few in the vault, if any. I think most were built to order, or to replace a 1/2 dozen for the vault. There was never any great demand for them, and S&W was wise enough by then to NOT stack the vault full of turkeys.

Frankly, I'm not convinced that all 250 barrels were used before WW II.

On the nickel-
Yes, the order says "for blue round butt", but that does not mean they would not build a nickel on order. But, nickel is so rare you need not worry about it!

On the square butts-
I have recently acquired a SB built in Sept, 1937. It was shipped to an individual, so I assume it was specil ordered. Otherwise, most (or all other?) square butts I have seen shipped after the factory was involved in WW II production (BSR's). I believe they exist because the factory had no RB frames on hand to fill 2" orders. In other words, they may have built SB's before the war, but I believe they were special orders and the factory never intended to offer them.

On survivability-
Some of the letters I have seen show LE sales. It might have been a rather high %, but I am not sure of that.
Even so, LE weapons don't have a bad survival rate. They often have condition issues, but survival is good. There is rather high accountability for LE weapons!
Also- of the LE letters I have seen, I think many are personal purchase of duty weapons, like sheriffs and high ranks buying their own. People take care of their own fancy little guns usually.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Lee, no offense intended, and you make good arguments...

But Roy sees the company records day in and day out. I'd take his "guess" as an extremely informed one, and in fact would give that more weight than any or all of our speculation however persuasive it may be.

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SWCA #590
"Colligo ergo sum"

No offense taken.
A guess is a guess.
I still think 1500 is way high.

We'll know one day. Once someone takes the time to search the digitized records for those years, all the 2" M&P invoices can be pulled up and counted.

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Interestingly, I asked for a digital search on 3 of mine a few months back. Came back no hits.

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Pace

OK where does this gun fit in.
Lee Jarrett do you remember this one?
Serial 833889 and lettered as one of the first 100 2 inch round butt shipped after WW2.
Was it manufactured before the war and set in vault or made up of left over parts after the war?

Lemme guess..."S" underneath the left grip or on the barrel flat or both? Pre war hammer block? Rebound slide stud polished flat?

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Pace

Here is photo of other side. As I remember there was small S on the barrel flat.

This serial number falls within the range of the 38/200s for the British. My opinion is the frame was built and s/n stamped before the war (or they would have left room for the "S") but finished after the war (stud polished flat). Whether the gun was completely assembled before or after - who knows.

BTW... I have s/n 833957 so it wasn't such a wild guess.

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Pace

I thought all .38/200s were square butt guns.

I am inclined to interpret this as a postwar S-prefix frame, but I am completely ignorant about when the factory started producing round-butt M&P frames after the war.

Does it have the post-1945 safety hammer block? You don't have to take the sideplate off to check. Look down in front of the hammer and see if a small flat piece of steel is being pulled down as the hammer moves back.

I don't think a single Pre-Victory was retrofitted with the improved hammer block safety.

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David Wilson

Pretty sure all the 38/200s were square butt but there is a batch of these 2 inch RB guns in the same serial number range that letter as "S" guns but there is no "S" in the number on the butt. There is no room for an "S" there and the "S" was added to the frame underneath the the left grip or on the barrel flat or both. Now if the frames were produced and numbered after the war, you'd think they would have left room for the "S". Additionally, this batch of guns have the pre war saftey but were shipped in 1946, well after the Navy incident. The one pictured below is an example. Serial number 833957 is a 38/200 shipped in October 1941 to Allied Forces. Obviously, this is not a 38/200. The one introduced above by Toyman is also part of this group.

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Pace

On a separate note, just want to thank Big Fred for starting this thread. It seems to have taken on a life of its own with some great information being discussed.

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Pace

I want to thank everyone that contributed to this thread. I am always amazed at the amount of knowlege that is openly shared on this forum. A big THANK YOU to all.

I sent for a letter and although it may be a few months till I get a reply due to the backlog, I will post the info when I receive it.

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Big Fred

Mike, thanks for the additional info on the 833xxx specimens. I knew nothing about this interesting block of revolvers and am now in the picture.

Excellent thread. It ought to be recorded in the noteworthy thread index.

Actually, that nomination will be my next order of business on the forum...

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David Wilson

I do not have the revolver anymore, traded it to Lee Jarrett. I bought it as a shooter and tried to letter it and came back as 5 inch sqaure butt. I communicated with Roy Jinks and further reserch showed a group of about 100 2 inch round butt 38 specials in the number range as PACE40 stated. The one I showed above shipped August 22, 1946.

Good find; and interesting thread. Appreciate additional information.

Mine is 62517x, RB, ~85+%, bright blue, wrong #[and dished-medallion] walnuts.

Regards,

Dyson

I have a couple more questions. Once available, was the 2" barreled Military & Police a cataloged item? Also, was it advertised? The 2" Victory actually was (Pate, page 140).

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SWCA #590
"Colligo ergo sum"

Its cataloged in the 1937, 1940 and 1941 catalogs. Shows as available in 2,4,5 or 6 inch barrel lengths. I don't have the ones in between these years but its probably there too. Question is ...when does it first appear?

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Pace

I just checked the 80th anniversary catalog and on page 13, it states that the M&P was available with a 4, 5 or 6 inch barrel blue or nickel with round butt and black rubber stocks. The M&P square butt, Model K was also advertised with a 4,5 or 6 inch barrel blue or nickel and checked circassian walnut stocks with S&W monograms. The 38 M&P Target is offered with a 6 inch barrel only with the walnut stocks and grooved straps and trigger and only offered in blue.

The 1934 price list stapled to the back inside cover shows the M&P round butt available for $32.00 in 2,4,5,6" with rubber stocks. The square butt only shows 4,5 and 6" barrels.

PS: I don't have a 2" pre war in the colleciton but I do have a post war 2" square butt (C 847XX) that was shipped in August of 1949. (also a 5" example (C 463XX) shipped in January 1949) and (a 6" example (C 20XX) shipped in November 1948.

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James Redfield
LM #497

That makes sense. The catalog is from 1932, before the 1933 production order. The 1934 price list after. Anybody have a 1933 catalog or price list? FWIW - the earliest known shipping on a 2 inch is Jan 1934.

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Pace

While I cannot tell you the value of a pre war M&P 2 inch I can tell you with absolute certainty that a number of these guns survive in the vaults of S&W until at least June 1942. I will explain. As everyone already knows the M&P was the workhorse of law enforcement and security until the mid 1980s. For reasons only known to S&W management at the time they decided to make these guns during the Great Depression. Had these guns been made at another time they would have quickly sold out.

Most people think that once a police officer was promoted to detective they would go out and buy a snub nose revolver. Well that is television not reality. Until the 1980s most police departments required officers to pay for all their equipment including the gun. Growing up I remember many stories for old beat cops my father had over for dinner. Many of these pre war cops would tell how the neighborhood church would have a bake sale or special collection to help the pending graduate pay for his gear. A newly promoted detective would usually only purchase a cancelable holster. If the square butt was a problem they would do a “modified round”. The back strap was cut down to the round butt while the front strap was left original. Those that had the means to afford a gun during the Depression would probably have spent the money on a fancier gun instead of the workhorse.

Another reason these guns did not sell out was that guns stores of the time were very different than those of today. Most gun stores sold rifles and shotguns and carried little in the way of hand guns. Remember this was at a time you could order a gun delivered directly to your home.

Now with this background it is easy to see that some of they guns sat around. December 8, 1941 saw the first of many more to come rationing rules. Fully assembled firearms lacking military inspector markings could not be shipped off to the military. These guns and later special production runs we held for special homeland procurement needs. Deference plants, transportation hubs, law enforcement agencies and other war needs required firearms. The process of getting a firearm was relatively simple considering the war. The business or agency filled out a detailed request form and paid a fee. The gun was then shipped to the business or agency.

Several years ago I purchased a pre war (1937) 2 inch M&P from the widow of a 4F police officer hired July 42. His gun for the duration of the war was the 2 inch M&P. I got the gun with original grips, box, paperwork and the 4 inch holster he modified. Before anyone asks about me publishing copies of the war forms I will not. I do not want someone to make fake copies and rip off people. How do I know this is all real? My wife’s family has known this family for about 100 years. This is not my only civilian issue war gun but it has the most complete history.

Just thought I would update this thread with what I call a "major" find. About an hour ago I put $100 down (in a pawn shop of all places) on what appears to be a pre war 2 inch NICKEL 1905 4th chg. It is a little better than shooter quality, round butt and has the black hard rubber grips and sports a serial of "6119**". They had it priced at $349 and wouldn't budge. I gave them a twenty, a ten, two fives, one roll of susan b anthony dollars and a check for $40. My balance is 282.32. If I can scrape up the rest I'm going back today.
I only found it cause I was in there to check out a post war pre-20 ($400). More on all of this (with pics) later when I get them paid for and in hand.
Suffice to say, this has been an AWESOME saturday!

Roger

Congratulations!
A great firearms day, indeed.

Roger, good for you!

Anxiously awaiting photos...

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David Wilson

Insofar as what was available, and what was being sold, I'm a big believer in following
the catalogs. There are arguments that marketing was slow in updating these documents,
but these are what the dealers were ordering from. Except, of course, special orders.

As far as I can tell, the 2" square butt was never cataloged before 1939 or 1940. The 2"
barrel was only offered, in the catalogs, in round butt, at least as of 1938 . Here is a
clipping from the 1937 - 1938 catalog:



We know there are 2" square butts made prior to this date, but, generally, the market
was not officially aware of it, judging by the catalogs. Clearly, some knew about it,
but not the general marketplace. So, prior to 1937 - 1938, square butt 2" guns ought
to be very scarce, on this basis alone.

These next two clippings are from the 1940 All Model Circular:





You'll notice that 2" barrel lengths are now offered in both round butt, and square butt.
Of course, this is leading into WW2, so I don't know how many 2" K-frames were
actually made.

I now skip ahead to the 1950 All Model Circular:





Here again we see that the 2" barrel is being offered in both butt configurations. Also
noteable is the very large price increase over the 1940 prices - almost a 70% increase.
We also notice that the AMC is reasonably in sync with engineering. The guns are
referred to as " The New .38 Military & Police", and the pictures show the redesigned
fish-hook hammer.

Regards, Mike Priwer

They must have printed more than one version of the 1934 price list. I finally found my Retail Prices 1934 list and there is no mention of a 2" offering in any of the M&Ps, just 4,5, and 6 inch tubes.
Ed

Updated with letter information.

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Big Fred

What a great and informative thread this is.
I’m very curious on one picture in this thread and find the need to hijack.
Regarding the “clipping from the 1937 – 1938” the round butt M&P listed at $26 and the square butt at $26.40. These priced don’t appear to be right for 1937/38? In the 1925 price list they are $32.00 (round) & $32.50 (square). The “magna stocks” listed makes the catalog date about right.

Maybe I cannot see the forest for the trees and missing something here, why are the prices lower?

I have noticed on earlier price lists the round butt and square butt being referred to as round handle and square handle. Just thought I’d add that useless tidbit.

I'm glad this thread came back. I had lost track of it, and it's nice to be reminded of the excellent information here.

On the question of value, the last two prewar 2" M&Ps that I saw sold at auction (one recently, the other about six or eight months ago) went for about $1300 each with low to moderate bidding activity. Both were RB blues.

Those prices in the '37-'38 listing look like dealer prices rather than the factory's proposed retail prices.

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David Wilson

Hi
Here is a picture of one of my carry guns. It is a frame from a round butt 32/20
from 1903 the frame is 1902 ist change, the cly is from a 1905 38 special 1938
and the barrel and ejector rod are from a post war pre model 10 from 1952.
The grips are 1920 - 1929 k frame round butt.
It shoots good target shot from 20 feet 6 O Clock hold with 148 Gr rem wad cutters. The good thing about this is it can not be taken as a real pre war 2 inch because the frame is a 4 screw frame and the serial numbers.
Jim Fisher.

Because of intense deflation during the Great Depression.

Jim, that is exactly the type of "adaptive reuse" that intrigues me. Guns that show some thought and care in the rebuilding process rise out of the category of "Frankengun" and become something new and interesting in their own right.

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David Wilson

Prices of many items and commodities, as well as wages, dropped significantly during the Great Depression. The problem being that as the Depression progressed, most consumers had even less money to spend, if they had any at all. That didn't change until the USA became involved in WWII, and became "The Arsenal of Democracy."

I remember my childhood family home, which my father bought in 1938 for about $2000 (he was one of the fortunate ones who had a reasonably good job). It would probably be at least a $150,000 house today.

I just wanted to add that my sole example of a prewar 2" M&P (pictured below) is serial numbered within 20 of the one that Big Fred started this thread off with. However, my notes indicate that this one has been verified as shipping a bit later (June, 1934). Nevertheless, I wonder if it'd also letter as being furnished to a law enforcement agency. I might just have to finally get around to doing that and report back.

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SWCA #590
"Colligo ergo sum"