Well, I paid more than I should have and it's not as nice as it should be for a collector, but I finally got the true I-frame post-War Terrier I've been after for so long. The problem was, they got too popular too fast before I had the chance to acquire one for myself.

Somebody put one on Gunbroker and it was not even bid on until the last 24 hours... I'm sure somebody from here must have bid on it against me, but overall there were only 3 or 4 bidders, but at least one was seriously interested. The auction got a couple of those extensions that come from bids with less than 15 minutes left and I was having to leave, so I just entered the most I would be willing (not "wanting," but willing under pressure) to pay, and my maximum bid held.

Now comes the wait for transfer from seller to my FFL to me. I'll show pix of the Trifecta when it gets here to join the I-frame 32 HE Snub and the Baby Chief.

Froggie

Picture in New Post

Congratulations! Waiting to see the baby darling in its swaddling clothes.

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

sweet! i'm glad you finally snagged one. can't wait for your pics!
ed

Congratulations! I know you have a big Terrier-shaped void in your safe, and I am glad you finally got something to put in it!

I am a little envious. Actually, more than a little.

Come to think of it, I am a lot envious.

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David Wilson

Congrats Froggie !
That one had been nagging your craw for some time but I suppose the hunt is kinda fun as well ,
Good thing S&W gave us so many variations .

Which one gets to wear the grips I sold you?

I'm looking forward to pictures.

David

Bravo Froggie!

Sooner or later it had to happen. I knew you had that 'find the Titanic' level of determination.

So let me guess; double hourglass thumbpiece, one liner, service stocks with sq cornered checking, maybe even flat silver medallions, smooth trigger, short throw hammer (just kidding!)?

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Jim
S&WCA #819

I think that my one and only Terrier (SN 53558) is a little early (but maybe not) to be a post war gun, but it is way high on the "cool" scale.





I bought it on a whim, as I thought it was classy looking and the price was very reasonable for the condition. At that time I did not know how hard they are to find, and I soon discovered that the price that I paid was much better than "very reasonable".

It is one of the nicer Terriers (pre or post war) that I have seen. Now, if I could only find one of those little red boxes to go with it???

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Richard
Engraved S&W fan

Yep, a pre war and right on the 'cusp', but way too shiny to be a post war and only a 1 line address; beautiful!!

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Jim
S&WCA #819

that is a beautiful one-liner!!!!

congratulations green frog. i got mine last spring. look at the bright side of it being less than excellant condition, you wont hesitate shooting it.

Yep, the FFL copy was FAXed off this afternoon and the PMO went into the mail soon after. Yep, it's got some wear on it and blue loss, so it will most probably join its siblings in carry rotation. As somebody already observed, its condition is right for carry rather than being ensconced in a safe. For those who don't get the attraction, the Terrier is officially the smallest 38 that S&W ever made (at least in the 20th Century, I'm not sure about some of the old break-tops.) To make the more powerful 38 Spl chambering, the cylinder had to be lengthened, making the finished product a skosh bit larger overall and leading ultimately to the J-frame series. It may be a small victory, but in the world of concealed carry, every little bit makes a difference, and as an added bonus, the flat mainspring makes the true I-frame feel more "right" to me - kinda like a smaller K-frame.

Of course, as is my habit, I got excited about this group of guns (the I-frames) just after folks had started snapping them up (I could tell you stories about collecting High Standards and Winchester single shots and Maynards with the same plot, but I won't.) Just as I started seriously looking for this one, guys that 6 months before couldn't even spell I-frame were trying to find all of them in circulation. I saw folks on this board asking how to identify an I-frame just so they could buy one. I've gotta say, it got a little crazy around here. Anyway, with this one, I officially have my little remuda corralled and am ready to move on to a couple of other S&W pursuits. Thanks to all for the encouragement, and to my enablers DC Wilson and Hondo44, I love you guys like brothers, but it's a good thing we don't live closer together or I'd be broke and in trouble all the time!

Regards,
Green Frog

PS I promise to get some pix up as soon as the Terrier gets in.

The are great little guns and although I've been gathering big N guns recently, I'd be hard pressed to let go of either this Terrier or the Centennial. I sure like names better than numbers...

The size difference is quite noticable! I carried one for a couple of years until my supply of .38 S&W MagSafe ammo was about depleted. There are some pants pockets that a holstered Terrier will fit that just won't take a J frame revolver.

I wouldn't mind a coil mainspring if the I frame was brought back into production. Imagine a Scandium framed Terrier with some fancy new .38 S&W rounds. Or blued steel. Anything!

Green Frog,
Congrat's!! Would you care to share at least the first three numbers of the Serial Number with us??
Richard, yours, according to the SCSW is a Pre-war. Beautiful gun, thanks for sharing.

Del

It should begin traveling tomorrow and reach me Monday. Anticipation...

Froggie

ok, thanks for responding.
Del

Well, it's finally here and I got a semi-clear photo done with my point-and-shoot. It's sort of the H&R of cameras! Anyway, here is a picture of the trifecta... the Terrier is on the lower left, and the 32 HE snub on the lower right. The Terrier is a one-liner, while the 32 has the later, multi-line roll mark. Otherwise they are virtually identical. Notice the Baby Chief is enough later to have the flat latch and a serrated ramp sight. I actually see that better when I am aiming, but for fast, close (inside 15 yds) shooting, I prefer the 32 and just aiming by point and feel. I hope I will get that way with the Terrier as well as I'd like to add it into my CCW rotation.

Enjoy ~ Froggie

Attached Images

Trifecta.jpg (199.9 KB, 122 views)

man, i didn't know it was gonna be a one-liner! great score. i still haven't reeled in an early one. i have found two (one nickel, one blue)that were highly praised (by their owners!), but both were hideously refinished, and STILL priced in the stratosphere. your success makes me feel a little better about the ongoing hunt!!!

Nice catch, Froggie!

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

Man, them Terriers sure aren't dogs!
What year manufacture is that 32 HE? Being only semi-educated (or less) in vintage S&W lore, I have a question about cylinder latches. I thought S&W changed to the modern contoured latch in 1966, but I've seen what I believe were earlier guns with the contour latch. Is there a hard & fast rule on this, or did different models get the countoured latch earlier than others?

hotrod150,

You've touched on one of the most confusing issues only common to the post war I frames. Hope this helps.

Standard post war (non- flat latch) thumbpieces:

Pre war thumbpiece carried over on first of post war I, K & N frames; the 'double hourglass' or 'double pinch' around screw hole thumbpiece with relief cuts under checkered pad shown here:



2nd style, and first ‘new’ post war thumbpiece, still has the double 'pinch' but without relief cuts under checkered pad.




The 3rd style was a single hourglass with a single 'pinch' in front of the screw hole like a #2 and from the center of the screw to the rear it's like a 4th style.




4th style, which was also the first style on the first 50 or so Chief Special 'Baby J' frames and last style I frame latch immediately prior to the flat latches on both I and J. The 4th style was re-introduced on I and J frames after '66 for several years in both blue and stainless until the modern style took over with the lower half shaved off. When the 'classics series' was produced an exact copy of the pre-war style was introduced on them but was an MIM cast part.


On the I frames these four styles were followed by the 2nd and 3rd style flat latch. The 1st style FL was only used on the Baby J frames and airweight K frames.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

I haven't lettered any of the Trifecta yet, but based on serial number ranges and features, I would place the Terrier at the earliest date with its single address line and large monogram on the sideplate. Maybe a left-over from pre-War production, but I believe post-War. The 32 HE has the later multi-line address and the small monogram on the left side under the thumb latch. I've gotten the impression it dates to about 1950 or 51. The "Baby" is obviously later with its flat latch and ramp sight... perhaps '52(?) This Winter I will probably try to work on narrowing down dates somewhat, but in the meantime, that's about the best I can do.

Froggie

Hondo44, thanks for the tutorial on cylinder latches. Still a bit confusing but I guess like most things I'll get it more & more as time goes along & I participate on this site.

Well, I know that some I-frame guns had the "normal" latch while J-frames had the flat ones.

In 1968 (or so) I wrote to Fred Miller, then S&W's Sales Manager. He told me that the cylinder release on J-frames was changed about 1966. I imagine that remaining flat latches were used up along with some new guns already getting the new style.

It had never occurred to me that even the normal S&W releases, as seen on all K, L, and N-frames also had variances. I couldn't afford to buy guns until the mid to late 1960's and haven't seen, let alone handled, many of the early J-frames. I was never tempted to buy a Terrier or a .32 HE because for very little more bulk, I could have a Chief's Special in the more powerful .38 Special chambering.

I still think the low powered guns ought to interest mainly collectors. Of course, most posting in this forum ARE collectors, and it is interesting to see the variants of these early guns. I learn quite bit here.

I can tell you that I dislike the late cylinder releases, without much on the lower edge. It is quite a bit easier to open the cylinder with the traditional style. I now have peripheral neuropathy, which weakens the muscles. The difference in being able to open the cylinder has become an important issue. I can no longer open many Colt guns, and think Ruger's push-in-to-open release is the best. It seems to use the available muscle strength to best advantage.

OK, I'm beginning to wonder whether the new Terrier is a pre-War issue after all. When I look down between hammer and frame, I don't see the hammer block come up the same way it does on the 32 HE (which is known to be post-War.) I'm away from home and my books now, so I need to ask... just what serial number was the cut-off between pre- and post-War production?

Froggie

Froggie,
Post-war serial range began with 54474.

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

hotrod,

The 4 styles of standard thumbpieces listed above were used on the I frames as they evolved between their introduction following the war in 1949 until the new Models of 1953 were introduced. These thumbpieces were replaced with the flat latches (like the J frame .38 Chiefs Spl was using since 1950, mentioned above) beginning on some of the last 'Improved' I frames made just prior to the introduction of the I frame Model of 1953. They continued until 1966 when the 4th style above replaced all flat latches on all I and J frames.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Froggie,

The new hammer block safety bar is the dead giveaway! If it doesn't have one it's pre war. You should open the sideplate to be sure it doesn't have the groove on the backside of it. Just in case someone left out the bar.

What's the number? Pre war ended at 54474. It certainly has all the pre war features (not sure about the stock medallions, can't see that well, are they flat silvers?)

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Jim
S&WCA #819

i bet they are flat silvers. it definitely has the square-cornered checkering field, and fine checkering.

Definitely pre-War... SN 523XX, fine checkering w/pointed border corners and a flat silver medallions. The number in the rt grip is a 6 digit post-War number though, 552345! I guess they were dog-robbed off of something of the 32 S&W Long HE persuasion. David, if I want to keep the pre-War grips safe from the depredations of CCW, this one is looking like a good candidate for those (later but still good fitting) grips you kindly contributed to my stash!

How close do you get to the serial number on the frame if you consider the first digit on the right stock panel is the result of an inadvertent or mistaken double hit?

I'm thinking stocks got their final fit to the frame after polish but before the dunk in the bluing tank. If you are moving fast through the work stations, and if somebody brought the wrong pair of eyeglasses that morning, errors are possible. I have seen other stock-to-frame mismatches that are just a single digit off if you are evaluating punch motions rather than numerical value; I suspect these are the result of pre-assembly haste rather than post-assembly mischief.

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David Wilson

David,

I think you're onto it, last 5 #s could be the same and that won't be a coincidence!

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Nice thought guys, but the last two numbers are nowhere close! Also, a couple of the edges of the wood stand a little proud of the frame. Back to the original switched grips hypothesis, I guess. I'm not going to let that take away from joy of having this one, though, and I plan to do some serious, extensive shooting with it.

I do have one slight hitch in my plans, however. Since it is pre-War, because of the lack of a hammer block safety, it isn't going to be quite as safe to carry as I had planned on it being. I think it will have to be the less used for CCW and more for fun on the range and of course bragging rights!

Thanks for all the kudos and encouragement!
Froggie

Froggie,

Look on the good side, you have an excuse to keep looking for a post war Terrier. And it wouldn't have to have original stocks since you now have two pair.
I have one pair on a 22/32, 14 #s off but convinced they are original due to past ownership, fit, etc. But alas if yours are a little proud I have to agree with you, still truly a nice post war pair of stocks with all pre war features as you said.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

I hope everyone doesn't mind if I join in this discussion. I'm new and this is my first post. I hope everyone will bear with me and correct me if I make a mistake.

In the last two weeks I was lucky enough to aquire a post war Terrier 38 S&W and a Baby Chief. I beleive that both are in the 1952 range. The Terrier serial number is 67XXX and the Baby Chief is 25XXX. The Baby Chief has a ramp sight that is serrated. Both are in very good condition.

I have been reading the posts and obtained some great information.

Of course we mind if you join in, :'), tongue in cheek, we'd be dissappointed if you didn't! Welcome to the forum!

Hey two great finds!!
I would guess your right about the Terrier being 1952. Someone with close numbers to yours who has shipping dates can pin down closer. But could be earlier, post war production began in '48 at #54475. Does it have the coil mainspring or tension screw on the foregrip with a leaf spring?

The Baby Chief probably goes in to early 1953.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

The Terrier is an improved with coil spring. I've been a student of S&W and the other brand for about 40 yrs. I never paid much attention to the I frames. I decided I wanted another Chief and I ran across a Baby Chief photograph and I was in love. Started looking around and discovered the Terrier and decided I wanted one. Found both within a week and was lucky enough to get them both.

Welcome to the madness, RC41. A Baby Chief is a wonderful thing to own, I only wish it had come out with a flat mainspring like the earlier, original I-frames. I just like the action better. S&W must have done something right with the coil spring action, though... they made about a bajillion of them!

Enjoy your two little acquisitions and good luck on grabbing up the matching 32 HE Snub (yeah, I know you'll "just have to find one" sooner or later.) One additional bonus is that they don't take up much space in your safe, so you can own more of them.

Regards,
Froggie

Thanks Hondo and Froggie. You have made me feel welcome.
I plan to carry the Baby Chief some of the time. I found a great Galco SSS that I really like. Need to carry in the same place that I have carried for many years. Hope to learn much more about both.

One thing that I don't understand. Why did S&W feel the need for the flat latch?

My guess? Production cost cutting. It's a much easier piece to produce; less milling cuts and the concave checkering can't be fun. They tried 3 different versions, the last one being the best in my opinion. But apparently gave up on the experiment by 1966. Maybe they received customer complaints. To this day people are still changing them for the standard thumbpiece.

They also dropped the cylinder hold open detent on the K and N frames after the war. I really like the cyl hold open and I've thought about adding it to some non-original post war guns I have, even I frames.

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Jim
S&WCA #819