1917 military over-run or Civlian ?

model3sw · #1 10-08-2012, 11:28 AM

I find in properly identifying the variations of the Model 1917 has a few grey areas of inconsistency.

The "correct" US military version seems straight forward, NO mistaking the identity here, but,

what features PRECISELY qualifies the over-runs (that most call "civilian") versus a "true" civilian version.

I make it a point to examine as many 1917s as cross my path at shows or of friends' collections.

I have a few "correct" US Military, w/ US Army stamp on the butt,

I have one in .455 with British proofs, Hand ejector 2nd model which is essentially the same or very similar brother to the 1917. I've examined many of these over the years (both 1st model HE and 2nd model HE),

What is mostly represented as "civilian" versions by those offering them for sale ... seem to me to be US Military over runs. I understand that WWI ended by the time these got into full scale production. There must have been a bounty of over-runs available for sale after WWI.

However, I have noticed the people that own THESE guns usually represent them as "civilian" or "commercial" (not military over run) yet ,they still have some sort of military influence, e.g. an Eagle head (profile) and / or a flaming bomb stamp or similar to hint military influence. These do NOT have US stamping on the butt.

>>> stop for a moment here. Are the above "true" Civilian Versions, Commercial versions or Military over-runs or all of the above ?

If Military Over-Runs, are there variations of, or addition of, or omission of the stampings / markings which would hint U.S. military influence to properly identify as such?

Then I have one that is completely absent of any and all hints of US military influence, e.g. no eagle head (side profile of eagle) or flaming bomb proof or other stamp, nor any unusual stamps of any nature to indicate possible Military influence, handling and / or inspection.

Is this a "CIVILIAN" or a "COMMERCIAL" ?

All discussed here are Pre-WWII, and all are in original configurations, (none have been re-worked nor had the cylinders re-bored for standard American Caliber revolver ammo)

Any learned members who have made a study of this or with the experience and factual details on these variances, please advise.

Thank you. Sal Raimondi SWCA#1300

DCWilson · #2 10-08-2012, 12:32 PM

Sal, good questions.

I tend to follow the concept of original intent: the 1917 was designed as a military model and every specimen should be considered military unless it meets the narrowest definition of a commercial variety. For me, that means there should be no military markings of any sort, and there should be a S&W logo on the left side of the frame (or on the sideplate for the very few units made after the late 1930s). Lanyard loops may or may not be present.

If the 1917 collecting community sees fit to draw additional distinctions, I am more than willing to learn from and be guided by them.

model3sw · #3 10-08-2012, 01:00 PM

Dave, your learned input is always welcomed and appreciated. Sal Raimondi

MKT · #4 10-08-2012, 01:05 PM

I can't speak much to the defining differences between military and commercial 1917s but I believe one clear cosmetic clue would be the finish. Didn't the commercial versions get a better polish and blue than the military model?

Wiregrassguy · #5 10-08-2012, 01:11 PM

The SCSW says the military models had a lighter finish than the commercials. I don't have a military to compare my commercial to. But, the finish on the commercial is like that on my 1921 M&P Target...deep glossy blue.

Oyeboteb · #6 10-08-2012, 01:26 PM

Whew!

Lots to learn if wishing to make sense out of the relationship between the m1917 as such, the Commercial Models, and, the Brazil Contract version.

2nd Mdl HE in .455 wise - When did the .455 cease production? And, or, did S & W offer a Post WWI 'Commercial' Model of it?

Oyeboteb · #7 10-08-2012, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MKT

I can't speak much to the defining differences between military and commercial 1917s but I believe one clear cosmetic clue would be the finish. Didn't the commercial versions get a better polish and blue than the military model?

Seems like the early m1917s may have had a finish which was on par with the regular S & W Revolvers of the day...while the later m1917s may have had a finish which was somewhat more modest.

Similarly, I know I have seen at least one early Brazil Contract Revolver, who's intact, original finish was simply gorgeous and wonderfully 'Blue'. Looked more like a 1920s finish than a mid to latter 1930s finish.

I would have bought it, but the Bore was shot out to where it was basically 'smooth', and the Lockwork was worn out, even though oddly enough, the finish was likely about 75 percent and very striking for being so 'Blue' and lovely.

All lettering and other details were crisp and I felt confident I was apprehending an original finish.

Hondo44 · #8 10-09-2012, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCWilson

Sal, good questions.

I tend to follow the concept of original intent: the 1917 was designed as a military model and every specimen should be considered military unless it meets the narrowest definition of a commercial variety. For me, that means there should be no military markings of any sort, and there should be a S&W logo on the left side of the frame (or on the sideplate for the very few units made after the late 1930s). Lanyard loops may or may not be present.

If the 1917 collecting community sees fit to draw additional distinctions, I am more than willing to learn from and be guided by them.

David,
Well stated. I am not aware of any pre war over-run 1917s or Civilian versions and conclude that the terminology is hype used by some sellers selling 1917 reworks, reblues, etc., as an attempt to cash in on the Commercial Model values. According to Neal and Jinks, the Commercial models of this period were stamped 'US Army Model 1917' and stamped 'US Property' under the barrel. Is that still the belief or has that been proven incorrect?

It appears that some confusion may arise Post WW II however. But I have a preliminary question or two for background before getting back to the Commercial 1917 question:

When the round top inspector stamped frames from the 1930s were purchased from the government by S&W in time to assemble <1000 or 10,000 (?) for the 1946 Brazilian contract, can we presume these would have had inspector stamps on them?

Is it known when the 1917 frames became flat top with the large sq notch rear sight? Apparently by the time of the 1937 Brazilian contract since most all seem to have those features, but when?

BACK TO COMMERCAIL MODELS

In SCSW reportedly some few of these 1930 rd top frames (less than 1000) were also reportedly assembled into Transitional Commercial models in serial range S209792-S210782. If the book is correct, big 'if', do these commercial models have 1930 inspector stampings and is that where the confusion arises?

Wiregrassguy · #9 10-09-2012, 05:50 AM

Jim,
The 1917 Commercial that I have has no US Property or other military stampings. It falls in the SN 181XXX range of some of the Brazilians. I'm not saying the SCSW is wrong, but maybe only some commercial models were stamped or they could have been counterfeits.

Hondo44 · #10 10-09-2012, 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wiregrassguy

Jim,
The 1917 Commercial that I have has no US Property or other military stampings. It falls in the SN 181XXX range of some of the Brazilians. I'm not saying the SCSW is wrong, but maybe only some commercial models were stamped or they could have been counterfeits.

Hey Guy,

You're an early riser, I haven't been in the rack yet here on the Left coast.

Thank you for that info! I suspected the book was either wrong or not completely right about the stamping. Possibly it was a sometime thing or just earlier models which might be how the "Civilian Model 1917" terminology came about that Sal is referencing. I never say never when it comes to Smiths!

I'm gonna' crash now, have a great day my friend and I'll be back later on today,

Wiregrassguy · #11 10-09-2012, 06:28 AM

Heck, Jim, you stay up a long time. Yeah, I don't sleep much anymore. Counting Smiths doesn't work 'cause I keep reaching for my wallet and falling out of bed

.

I guess there aren't many folks who worked at S&W in the '30s still around who could shed some light on this. Don't know if the Historical Foundation may have some info...probably isn't digitized yet.

DCWilson · #12 10-09-2012, 07:36 AM

I believe the flat-top revision came to the N-frame in the 1926/1927 time frame. As I recall, the earliest Model of 1926 .44 HEs had round tops, but in short order the Model of 1926 production was using the flat-top frames with square-notch sight channels.

My second contract Brazilian is a Frankengun with a replacement yoke, but the frame and other parts are numbered 173159.

I'll try to hit the question on the 1946 Brazilian contract over on the other thread. But with regard to the last 990 units in the old 1917 serial number sequence -- I thought those were built on new frames made after the war. They had the new hammer safety block (S prefix).

BUFF · #13 10-09-2012, 09:32 AM

Quuoting Roy Jinks' "History Of Smith & Wesson," the military production guns were sold out by January, 1921, and S&W "began producing a commercial model identical to the war-time production gun, except for it's checkered walnut grips."

I take that to mean that 1917s sold prior to January, 1921 were "military overruns" but guns made after that date, except those made for Brazil, were manufactured with the intention of commercial sales.

Wiregrassguy · #14 10-09-2012, 10:59 AM

I see that I'm going to have to get Roy's book. Thanks, BUFF.

Hondo44 · #15 10-09-2012, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCWilson

I'll try to hit the question on the 1946 Brazilian contract over on the other thread. But with regard to the last 990 units in the old 1917 serial number sequence -- I thought those were built on new frames made after the war. They had the new hammer safety block (S prefix).

There's a statement in SCSW pg 163 that the new hammer block was added at serial # 185,000 w/o an S which would be prior to 1946. The Victory Model accidental death that caused the retrofit of the hammer block safety in those models probably spurred its introduction on the 1917s pre end of WW II.

It's becoming clearly apparent that the 1917 section of the book is as lacking in clarity as the I frame section.

JSR III · #16 10-09-2012, 08:39 PM

I would strongly suggest that anyone that is interested in the 1917's acquire a copy of Charlie Pate's fine book "U.S. Handguns of World War II". They are pricey but well worth it for anyone that is interested in military guns.

In Appendix H on page 353, there is a copy of a letter from James E. Sullivan, Resident Inspector of Ordnance, Smith & Wesson, Inc. to Lt. Col. A.M. Johnson, Deputy District Chief, Springfield Ordnance District dated February 10, 1950, that addresses the M1917 rebuild program. This may at least answer some questions about the 1917's.

I will try to scan in a copy for all to read.

Well, that didn't work, so I guess I'm typing it. It's pretty long so go grab a beer while I type.

________________________
Admin Edit-
Copyrighted material removed.

Please read-
Copyrighted Material

________________________

Well, there you have it. Hopefully that answers some questions and gives some insight into the rebuild procedure.

My hands are tired, time for my beer.

Muley Gil · #17 10-09-2012, 09:02 PM

Now, the question(s) is/are, what happened to these rebuilt 1917s? Were any issued in Korea? Has anyone encountered one with the upgraded safety installed? What type of grips were installed?

Hondo44 · #18 10-10-2012, 03:32 AM

James that was very interesting. A question I have is where was the new flaming bomb stamp applied and would one of these rebuilt guns have two bomb stamps or was the original removed in the sandblasting process?

JSR III · #19 10-11-2012, 02:19 PM

Jim, I would think that the original was removed during the refinish process and a new one added. The letter states that it was placed on the frame so we know at least that much. I have never heard of one with 2 bombs, does anyone have one????

It sure would be nice to know if there are any records of the serial numbers of these 28,000 M1917's. Perhaps Charlie has that information in his files. I will shoot him and email and see what he has to say.

The sad part was the line that said, Stocks were removed and thrown away. That means that there are 28,000 pairs of 1917 stocks in the Springfield dump. (Don Mundell will be over there tonight with a shovel)

JSR III · #20 10-11-2012, 02:29 PM

S&W 1917 Serial #13(PIC HEAVY)(UPDATE SEE LAST POST NEW PICS)

Check out this thread. The 1917 shown here has an "S" on the cylinder face. I would guess that it might have been through this or a similar rebuild program.

handejector · #21 10-16-2012, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muley Gil

Now, the question(s) is/are, what happened to these rebuilt 1917s? Were any issued in Korea? Has anyone encountered one with the upgraded safety installed? What type of grips were installed?

Good question.
I've never heard of that rebuild before!

I suspect they may have been dumped on one of our third world allies or some rebels we wished to support somewhere, sometime.
I have NEVER encountered one of those guns that I know of.

Some questions come to mind:
Were barrels and cylinders rematched to guns by serial numbers?
Were new barrels and cylinders numbered to match frames?
Were guns simply reassembled with mixed numbers?
WW I U.S. 1917 hammers and triggers are slightly different from later N frame parts. We know they probably replaced rebound slides because of the hammer block stud. Did they replace all hammers and triggers? Will triggers in those guns be grooved, either all or some?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSR III

S&W 1917 Serial #13(PIC HEAVY)(UPDATE SEE LAST POST NEW PICS)

Check out this thread. The 1917 shown here has an "S" on the cylinder face. I would guess that it might have been through this or a similar rebuild program.

PLEASE- let's not start that misconception!
That S has nothing to do with the hammer block and was put on the first many thousands built in 1917-18.

Hondo44 · #22 04-09-2016, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCWilson

I believe the flat-top revision came to the N-frame in the 1926/1927 time frame. As I recall, the earliest Model of 1926 .44 HEs had round tops, but in short order the Model of 1926 production was using the flat-top frames with square-notch sight channels.

Made an interesting 1917 observation today.

A Model 1917 righteous military model #113934 with all appropriate frame stampings with flat top strap and square notch rear sight. It has the original finish and is in very nice original, unmolested condition.

Has anyone else seen a flat top strap frame on a WW I vintage 1917?

Skeetr57 · #23 04-09-2016, 08:34 PM

With regard to the flaming bomb stamp: There were two versions of the flaming bomb. It is the branch insignia of the Ordnance Corps and is usually seen with the tapered symmetrical flame. However there was also a version like the one shown on the revolver in this thread with the ragged sort of flat top flame. Some where I have a set of lapel/collar pins with that same type of flame that were given to me by an old ordnance officer.

Skeetr57 · #24 04-09-2016, 08:43 PM

Hondo: I would say that the gun you saw had a replaced frame from a later date. Not only have I not seen a M1917 from the WWI period with the flat top frame I have nat seen any size S&W from the WWI period with a flat top frame. My 1923 S&W catalog specifically mentions the new type of fixed sights for several models, ,but not for the round butt M&P, nor any I frame or N frame, including the civilian M1917.

fkienast · #25 04-09-2016, 09:55 PM

"When the round top inspector stamped frames from the 1930s were purchased from the government by S&W in time to assemble <1000 or 10,000 (?) for the 1946 Brazilian contract, can we presume these would have had inspector stamps on them?"

I have a reputed Brazilian 1937. I say reputed due to it's sideplate is stamped with the Brazilian crest, but it is the only part not serialized to the gun. The serial number is 55639, it's a round sight notch, inspectors stamps on barrel, & cylinder. Small p and a capital S on yoke. No property mark on Barrel. No US ARMY 1917 model info on butt. S&W logo on left side. No Ordnance flaming bomb.

Hondo44 · #26 04-09-2016, 10:30 PM

Hi Tom,

That's what I'm thinking. #113934 was shipped in 1918 and most likely had a frame transplant during the S&W "...rebuild contracts before terminated at the end of WWII." (NOTES FROM THE ARCHIVES #6 - THE MODEL 1917 AND THE 'NATIONAL OPERATING COMPANY' by Charlie Pate)

Hondo44 · #27 04-09-2016, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fkienast

"When the round top inspector stamped frames from the 1930s were purchased from the government by S&W in time to assemble <1000 or 10,000 (?) for the 1946 Brazilian contract, can we presume these would have had inspector stamps on them?"

I have a reputed Brazilian 1937. I say reputed due to it's sideplate is stamped with the Brazilian crest, but it is the only part not serialized to the gun. The serial number is 55639, it's a round sight notch, inspectors stamps on barrel, & cylinder. Small p and a capital S on yoke. No property mark on Barrel. No US ARMY 1917 model info on butt. S&W logo on left side. No Ordnance flaming bomb.

The sideplate will have a matching assembly # to the two on the yoke and in the yoke cut on the frame. If it doesn't match, the side plate has been replaced. And I think it has been.

I know of no Brazilians with any serial numbers as low as or even near # 55639. Does the serial # on the grip frame butt match the serial #s on the barrel and cyl?

fkienast · #28 04-09-2016, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hondo44

The sideplate will have a matching assembly # to the two on the yoke and in the yoke cut on the frame. If it doesn't match, the side plate has been replaced. And I think it has been.

I know of no Brazilians with any serial numbers as low as or even near # 55639. Does the serial # on the grip frame butt match the serial #s on the barrel and cyl?

I took the side plate off again, and the frame number, yoke number and the side plate number match.

Those three serial numbers all match. Accordong to my SCSW 3rd edition , it wasn't in either group of serial numbers.

Hondo44 · #29 04-09-2016, 11:38 PM

Very interesting and good news!

So all three assembly #s match, and the serial #55639 on the butt of the grip frame, cyl and barrel all match?

Truth can be stranger than fiction. You have a very early numbered Brazilian outside of the normally considered serial ranges. It only goes to prove, there are no rules with S&Ws. It could be a righteous gun and most likely from the '46 contract since it's a round top frame.

Unused serial numbered military frames preceding and following #169959, the estimated last military unit made, were assembled thru # 209791 by 1946.
Some with very varied shipping dates were assembled into commercial model 1917s, 2nd Model 44 Hand Ejectors, and military 1917s to fill contracts for the Brazilian government in 1936 and 1946. Most will have the flaming bomb government inspector stamps in various locations but not on the outside of the frame which were re-finished; only in the yoke. And there’s no reason why a frame made into a 45 ACP could not also have a surplus 1917 barrel and cylinder which would likely have the inspector stamps.

Are the stamps on your barrel and cyl the eagle head or flaming bomb?

JSR III · #30 04-09-2016, 11:54 PM

Just to add to the collective knowledge. I own 55547 and it is NOT a Brazilian.

Quote:

I took the side plate off again, and the frame number, yoke number and the side plate number match.

Just to make sure we all understand. The numbers in the yoke cut, the yoke and the back side of the side plate all match? If so what is that number?

Then turning the gun upside down, what is the number on the butt of the gun?

fkienast · #31 04-10-2016, 01:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSR III

Just to add to the collective knowledge. I own 55547 and it is NOT a Brazilian.

Just to make sure we all understand. The numbers in the yoke cut, the yoke and the back side of the side plate all match? If so what is that number?

Then turning the gun upside down, what is the number on the butt of the gun?

The serial number, 55639, is stamped on butt grip, barrel, yoke, and frame.

Those numbers are 18408. It is marked three times with that number, once on the frame, yoke and inside the side plate.

The pistol has Eagle head proofs, an S24 on cylinder, and an S34 on the barrel, they're tiny and hard to read.

Hondo44 · #32 04-10-2016, 06:09 AM

I think that clinches it then!

fkienast · #33 04-10-2016, 07:49 AM

My big question is since it has no US government markings other than inspection stamps, where did this revolver sit from 1918 till 1946, when it was sold to Brazil?

Hondo44 · #34 04-10-2016, 05:07 PM

The frame was in Smith inventory. They're made in large batches then assembled as the need arises.

Yours was likely in a batch of about 7300 frames made in 1918 under the government contract for WW I, but never completed before the end of the war. They were delivered to the government and bought back at a later date as surplus.

Jack Flash · #35 04-10-2016, 07:29 PM

I'm guessing it would be impossible to say how many crates, barrels, warehouses, depots the frame & parts traversed before being made into a working revolver ...

iskra · #36 04-10-2016, 07:56 PM

Living dangerously here. Replying without having read all the above posts. Yet little time today! Below a pix of my commercial post WWII .Model 1917 Sn 2099xx (no "S" prefix). Just for illustration.
And the usual...
Just my take

JSR III · #37 04-10-2016, 08:48 PM

Things to note on iskra's gun. Made in USA roll mark, large S&W logo on side plate and non mushroom extractor rod knob and checked stocks.

These are not found on the non commercial models.

Hondo44 · #38 04-10-2016, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iskra

Living dangerously here. Replying without having read all the above posts. Yet little time today! Below a pix of my commercial post WWII .Model 1917 Sn 2099xx (no "S" prefix). Just for illustration.
And the usual...
Just my take

That's a beauty and one of the easiest Commercial models to identify.

It's clearly one of the few more (not including the 1946 Brazilians) 1917 Commercial Army Models produced, (991 is the usual quantity quoted), most in the 1917 serial range # S209972 to # S210782 (811 #s), some without the S prefix, with post ~1933 and #185000 hammer block safety, issued post WW II, c. 1946 - 1950, found with and w/o lanyard swivels, and are considered "Model 1917 Post War Transitional Models".

Replaced by the short action ".45 HE Model of 1950, Military" in 1951 beginning at #S85000 in the other existing N frame serial # range common to all pre war models except the 1917 Army, but with added S prefix in 1946.

ejjeff · #39 04-11-2016, 10:05 AM

I would just like to say Thank you to all the members of this forum for the education they so freely give.

Jeff

model3sw · #40 03-03-2018, 07:02 PM

I dug up this old thread I started back in 2012 to specify, more precisely what i mean.

I believe, although commercially sold, the first listed below was a US Over-run when production stopped at the end of WWI.

I have a model 1917 SN: 174xxx that is NOT a US marked model but has the following: proofed w-Eagle profile (side view of eagles head) w/ S-34. In frame Eagle & S2. No flaming bomb that I can see.

Then I have another 1917 SN: 133xxx that "is" a US marked model and has the near same markings as follows: Eagle profile (side view of eagle's head) over S2 on barrel & frame inside crane area. Flaming Bomb on left rear upper. United States Property barrel.

And, another 1917 US Army SN: 68xxx SN noted as follows: Light Eagle over S4 frame, Flaming bomb left rear upper frame United States Property barrel.

Same eagle, same S2 marks on SN 133xxx but no US Army markings, just the partial with Eagle and Sx number.

One very near like 133xxx sold at Reading Auction in December 2016 for $2500.00. It was approximately a 90% or better gun. It only had a flaming bomb inside the frame but no other, Ne eagle no Sx markings.

Comments ?

umwminer · #41 03-03-2018, 09:03 PM

S2 , S24 , S34 .
No “US PROPERTY” or “US Army Model of 1917 “.
No GHS or Flaming Bomb.
Small logo on left side of frame .
SN 172860

Muley Gil · #42 03-03-2018, 09:20 PM

Looks like a post WW I, pre mid 1922 1917. The stamping "MADE IN USA" appeared on the right side of the frame in mid 1922.

policerevolvercollector · #43 03-03-2018, 11:23 PM

So where does serial number 177843 fall into this chronology? It has no military proofs or army markings. Is it a true "Commercial"?

Hondo44 · #44 03-03-2018, 11:34 PM

That's a commercial model. I'm surprised it doesn't have a lanyard swivel. However, the butt strap has had some work on it, it's not flat any longer except where the serial # is.

I'll bet the lanyard swivel hole has been filled. A quick check under the stocks would confirm if the retaining cross pin hole is there and or if some filler welding is evident.

umwminer · #45 03-04-2018, 12:36 AM

The cross pin is in place under the stocks

Muley Gil · #46 03-04-2018, 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by .44Special

So where does serial number 177843 fall into this chronology? It has no military proofs or army markings. Is it a true "Commercial"?

Yes, it is a commercial model that was built after mid 1922. It has the small S&W stamp on the left side. And it has the "MADE IN USA" on the right side, which appeared after mid 1922.

1-1917 · #47 03-04-2018, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCWilson

Sal, good questions.

I tend to follow the concept of original intent: the 1917 was designed as a military model and every specimen should be considered military unless it meets the narrowest definition of a commercial variety. For me, that means there should be no military markings of any sort, and there should be a S&W logo on the left side of the frame (or on the sideplate for the very few units made after the late 1930s). Lanyard loops may or may not be present.

If the 1917 collecting community sees fit to draw additional distinctions, I am more than willing to learn from and be guided by them.

At least the cylinder of mine (#173967) has a Springfield inspector stamp on it. The proof to me is in the letter from S&W. It was sent to Zion's Merchantile, not the Army. Has all the normal commercial items but still has some military marking too.