Please help with info. on this 38 S&W special revolver for my grandmother

DaSandmanCometh · #1 10-12-2012, 05:37 PM

Hi, i have researched this gun and I'm so confused I had to post another thread about these guns in order to figure this one out. I'm sorry to begin with, but as I said I'm very confused.

The Story: My grandmother found this a few weeks ago while cleaning out some rooms in here house. Said it belonged to her dad and he bought it sometime in the 1940/50's and kept it on the night stand by his bed everyday until the day he died. Well she gave it to me but she, and I, would like to know more about this gun. I've researched and researched these guns but I'm so confused now.

When she pulled this thing out it had four cartridges in it, one fired and three non-fired. I would like to know about these cartridges as well if anyone knows as they are old for sure. The gun is in great condition and the bore is mirror smooth with no pitting at all. As you tell, there is almost no turn line.

And I've seen a lot of pictures of these guns, but very few with the lanyard strap swivel on the bottom, any one know about that?

Thank you again for anything you can tell me about this, I and my grandmother really appreciate it. I'm a newer gun guy and never really expected to have any older guns, but this beauty just landed in my lap and is a family heirloom now.

SN is 612690, under barrel and on cylinder. Model number is 57032 on crane, don't know if that's right or not.

Here's the pictures:

Thanks again for any information.

s&wchad · #2 10-12-2012, 06:06 PM

It's a Victory Model alright, but the serial number on the butt has been removed. The barrel and cylinder are still numbered (matching), but the number on the frame (butt) is the only one that counts to the BATFE.

Possession of a gun with an obliterated serial number is a problem you don't want.

Jim Watson · #3 10-12-2012, 06:31 PM

I doubt the BATF is going to descend on Grandma, or even you, but her gun is officially contraband.
A friend worked in a pawn/gun shop and had one come in like that. He called the police and BATF and showed them the other SN locations. The gun went back to the person it was stolen from, the most recent holder was arrested. But that was years ago and I do not know if the feds would be as easy going now.

The cartridges are target wadcutters, probably reloads because the headstamps do not match.

DWalt · #4 10-12-2012, 07:31 PM

As others have stated, a gun with a removed or defaced serial number is illegal. However, unless you (or she) are somehow apprehended by the Law with the gun in your possession, difficulties are unlikely. But you wouldn't want to attempt selling it.

Mu wild guess - someone brought it home from WWII and decided he did not want it traced to him. So he got out the grinder. However, he apparently did not know the same SN was stamped on other places. I've seen many WWII duffle-bag specials having filed-off or ground-off serial numbers.

There are procedures for making your revolver legal through BATFE. However, it's probably not worth the hassle and risk to do so, given its relatively low value (which is approximately zero at present, except for its component parts). There are some postings here about the pros and cons of doing that.

Regarding your ammunition. What I see are three .38 Special full wadcutter loads, used for shooting at paper targets. They punch very sharp holes in paper. As far as age is concerned, I see two Remington headstamps. The one with the REM-UMC headstamp would have been made prior to the early 1960s. The one with a R-P headstamp would date from after that. That's about as close to dating them as anyone could get

DaSandmanCometh · #5 10-12-2012, 08:44 PM

Thank you all for this info. On this gun. I do have a couple questions.

What does the number on the crane mean, seen a couple different explanations?

Is the swivel a normal addition? It looks like a factory job as its pinned on the inside, under the grip.

Would the SN be on the butt where the rectangle grove is?

Can the date of mfg. be determined from the SN?

Thanks again.

Just wanted to make sure that 38 special rounds are the same as 38 s&w special? I saw something earlier in my research that said no.

s&wchad · #6 10-12-2012, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaSandmanCometh

What does the number on the crane mean, seen a couple different explanations?

That's an assembly number that S&W placed on the frame and yoke to reunite them after finishing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaSandmanCometh

Is the swivel a normal addition? It looks like a factory job as its pinned on the inside, under the grip.

The lanyard loop was factory installed on the Victory Model and other US military revolvers. It's correct.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaSandmanCometh

Would the SN be on the butt where the rectangle grove is?

Yes.

DWalt · #7 10-12-2012, 10:06 PM

.38 Special and .38 S&W Special are one and the same cartridge. There is another cartridge named the .38 S&W (not Special) which is different, and will not fit into a .38 Special chamber. There were S&W military revolvers made which are for the most part identical to this one that WERE chambered in .38 S&W for use by British Commonwealth countries during WWII, not .38 Special. This is usually called the .38/200 model.

Muley Gil · #8 10-12-2012, 10:17 PM

The Victory model revolvers, which have "V" prefix serial numbers like yours, were made during WW II.

The serial number, taken from under the barrel and from the rear of the cylinder, is V612290. There are a few of our Forum members that maintain a database of these revolvers and could probably pin down a more exact date and possibly a location to where it was sent.

VaRecon · #9 10-12-2012, 10:19 PM

In my experience there is no good possible outcome from a gun with no serial numbers.
Do you know how this came into her possession?

Muley Gil · #10 10-12-2012, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VaRecon

In my experience there is no good possible outcome from a gun with no serial numbers.
Do you know how this came into her possession?

This was the second paragraph of the OP's post:

"The Story: My grandmother found this a few weeks ago while cleaning out some rooms in here house. Said it belonged to her dad and he bought it sometime in the 1940/50's and kept it on the night stand by his bed everyday until the day he died. Well she gave it to me but she, and I, would like to know more about this gun. I've researched and researched these guns but I'm so confused now."

Texas Star · #11 10-12-2012, 10:32 PM

If the gun has considerable sentimental value, you may be able to clean off some of the rust (if it isn't actually pitting) with fine steel wool or a No. 2 lead pencil. Use Break-Free or other quality gun oil to clean it, too. Someone may not have cleaned it after firing. The rear face of the cyinder looks pretty dirty.

I'd buy new ammo for it, anything marked .38 S&W Special or .38 Special. Same cartridge. There was once a .38 Colt Special, same thing with a flattened point on the bullets. DO NOT use Plus P ammo loaded to higher velocity and meant for later guns. Won't blow it up, but will accelerate wear.
S&W does not warranty guns made before 1957 for use with Plus P ammo and usually only those with steel frames.

The ammo confusion may be between .38 Special and .38 S&W regular (not Special), which is an older, shorter cartridge used primarily in old top-break guns and in British revolvers like the Webley and Enfield MK II service arms and the Colt and S&W guns chambered for it in WW II for them.

Don't be seen in public with this gun until you contact ATF and arrange to have it serial numbered. It may be seized,or they may work with you to re-mark it. Much depends on the individual agents you meet and where you live.

It looks to be sound and functional, if having some cosmetic issues. But if you use it in a shooting that police investigate before it gets numbered, you're in deep trouble.

The gun is collectible, having been the primary sidearm of Naval and Marine aviators in WW II.

opoefc · #12 10-12-2012, 10:42 PM

The assumed problem with the removed butt serial number can be easily solved by re-stamping the number on the grip frame, under the grips. That's acceptable to the BATF, when the original serial number location is obliterated or defaced, for what ever reason. Anybody handy with number stamps, or any gun smith, can do the job. Ed.

Muley Gil · #13 10-12-2012, 10:52 PM

"The gun is collectible, having been the primary sidearm of Naval and Marine aviators in WW II."

TS, the proper way to express this is "Navy and Marine aviators". Both Navy and Marine aviators are referred to as Naval aviators. Both attend the same flight schools, fixed wing and rotary. They both wear the same wings. Back seaters are Naval Flight Officers for both services.

DWalt · #14 10-12-2012, 11:18 PM

"The assumed problem with the removed butt serial number can be easily solved by re-stamping the number on the grip frame, under the grips. That's acceptable to the BATF, when the original serial number location is obliterated or defaced, for what ever reason. Anybody handy with number stamps, or any gun smith, can do the job. Ed."

Is that correct in this case, in which there is no SN elsewhere on the frame? After all, a barrel and cylinder having the same SN could conceivably be affixed later to this frame that were not initially there when it left the factory. That's unlikely here, but possible.

DAinTX · #15 10-12-2012, 11:35 PM

Find a way to get the serial number, as it appears under the barrel and on the cylinder, re-stamped on the butt of the grip frame as opoefc suggests. You can buy a number stamp kit for metal (google it), secure the gun butt in a vice with plenty of leather padding, and do it yourself. Stamp it just under the V, then don't worry about it.

dewey · #16 10-13-2012, 08:48 AM

I'd like to add some additional thoughts:
I'd load it with some regular .38 Spls and put it on YOUR nightstand. Every night you will think of your GrandDad and the importance of your heritage. If you must, shoot a cylinder full, clean it-actually CLEAN it now and then put it on your night stand.

Boss Hoss · #17 10-13-2012, 10:04 AM

Well, after reading all the replys I can see I can't really add any info (new or better anyway) Thought i'd say i have about the same gun. My late father in law carried it for years way back when he was a LEO in Mo. It was nickle plated at some point (i have no info on that) It rests in a display case with his badge as it has about a million dollars of sentimental value to my wife-

oberon · #18 10-13-2012, 11:18 AM

Too bad about the obliterated #. Putting it back on the frame is the best option for avoiding serious trouble if the thing is ever recovered by les gendarmes.
Just don't get grabbed with that thing until you fix it.
It is a decent Victory model. The lanyard loop is correct and factory. Mine is not as nice, but is still my best shootin' .38. You might be able to find some original or period correct grips for it if you look around. They would be smooth wood, pre-magna style.

Green Frog · #19 10-13-2012, 11:21 AM

First, let me say that what you have is something I would treasure, and as such would make every effort to hold onto as well as preserve/conserve. I agree with virtually everything that has been said in the foregoing discussion thread except for one thing. I would NOT load it and place it in my nightstand until and unless I had been able to take it out and shoot it to both test its function and become familiar with its use.

As for the serial number issue, I would do the following (keeping in mind that I am not a lawyer and don't even play one on TV

) first I would check the numbers I have found carefully. I would ignore the assembly number under the crane and defer to those found on the bottom of the barrel and rear face of the cylinder. I would then lightly polish out the grind mark on the butt of the grip frame. I would then neatly stamp (or have stamped) the previously determined serial number then wipe this disturbed area down with a little cold blue to blend it in and call it good. This would almost surely satisfy any problems the previous defacement would bring.

As an aside, the grips are by Franzite™ as their internal markings indicate. They were the least expensive of several replacement grips available when you ancestor acquired the gun. If I were to change anything else about the gun, it would be to get a better pair of grips as these tend to lack everything one would want in a grip, but that's just my opinion.

Anyway, congratulations on inheriting a desirable gun with at a known period of history in your family. It is definitely worth having. And of course, welcome to the forum... you will find lots of helpful information and opinions here.

Regards,
Green Frog

DaSandmanCometh · #20 10-13-2012, 12:14 PM

Thank you all again for the info. I really do appreciate it. I really don't plan to shoot it right now. I've cleaned it up real good and there doesn't seem to be any rust at all on it. The bore is just amazingly smooth and mirrored.

It's going to be a family heirloom after I get it leaflet that is. My grandmother gave it to me because she said I would appreciate it and not sale it. I think it'll just stay in the safe and be something I take out now and then to show my friends and of course my kids when I have some old enough.

glowe · #21 10-13-2012, 01:10 PM

You did not mention what you will do about the serial number? Please take the advise of the experts and remedy the problem, because you or your siblings will want to take this out to the range to shoot someday. Transporting such a firearm is not legal nor is the sale of it to another, so at least please follow Ed's advise.

There exists the chance that the gun was stolen at some point before your great grandfather acquired it and on the books at the ATF as such, so I would take care of all potential legal issues at a first priority. Once satisfied, treasure and pass down a "legal" piece of your family's heritage.

mikepriwer · #22 10-13-2012, 01:31 PM

The serial number, as Muley noted, is V612290. This is what needs to be stamped
somewhere on the grip frame.

Mike Priwer

DaSandmanCometh · #23 10-13-2012, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glowe

You did not mention what you will do about the serial number? Please take the advise of the experts and remedy the problem, because you or your siblings will want to take this out to the range to shoot someday. Transporting such a firearm is not legal nor is the sale of it to another, so at least please follow Ed's advise.

There exists the chance that the gun was stolen at somfe point before your great grandfather acquired it and on the books at the ATF as such, so I would take care of all potential legal issues at a first priority. Once satisfied, treasure and pass down a "legal" piece of your family's heritage.

I do plan to get the SN stamped on it, but at the moment I'm traveling. I'm mil and on my way to my new duty station in FL. My plan is to mix it with all my other guns for the trip and then I'll get SN stamped as soon as I can. I have no way to get it done now and will be on the road in a day or two.

Do you think a gun smith would stamp it without any issues?

I have a contact in the ATF that I'm going to put a call into to see if anything comes up with the gun.

Doug M. · #24 10-13-2012, 03:07 PM

Do not try to take that revolver on to a military facility until the S/N has been un(messed). Given the current nanny attitude they will want to look at everything firearm related and anyone with half a brain will now that is not kosher the way it is. That is a big mess you do not want.

Muley Gil · #25 10-13-2012, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by opoefc

The assumed problem with the removed butt serial number can be easily solved by re-stamping the number on the grip frame, under the grips. That's acceptable to the BATF, when the original serial number location is obliterated or defaced, for what ever reason. Anybody handy with number stamps, or any gun smith, can do the job. Ed.

Back in '77, when I first obtained my FFL, this procedure was mentioned in the regulation book that the BATF sent to all FFL holders. A smith could stamp the SN on the frame, then remove the factory SN. This was later dropped from the book, sometime before I gave up my FFL in '97.

"I would then lightly polish out the grind mark on the butt of the grip frame....wipe this disturbed area down with a little cold blue to blend it in and call it good. ..."

This was mentioned by Green Frog. This is the type of modification that the above was intended to correct, removing the SN for some sort of alteration.

Oyeboteb · #26 10-13-2012, 03:21 PM

If there is an old-time, friendly good reputation Gunsmith in your Area, you could call him and explain your situation, and, likely he could then correct the Serial Number condition and not charge you much for his trouble.

He'd have Stamps of the right size, and, be familiar with how to use them.

He would know any ins and outs of the procedure as respect the requirements of the BofATFandnowalsoE, and in affirming your position then being clearly one of good faith.

glowe · #27 10-13-2012, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muley Gil

"I would then lightly polish out the grind mark on the butt of the grip frame....wipe this disturbed area down with a little cold blue to blend it in and call it good. ..."

Gil - did you see the grind mark? I looks to be half way through the frame.

Oyeboteb · #28 10-13-2012, 05:51 PM

Would not be hard for the 'Grind' mark-depression to be filled in via TIG Welding with an appropriate Alloy stick...or even MIG with some close-enough Alloy of Wire, then, it could be dressed down flat, and ( by appropriare procedures, with appropriate blessings, ) the Serial Number re-applied.

But heck, the de-farbing on the Butt IS part of the Revolver's History, even if the details as to how it came about, are not known.

If it was mine, I would leave the 'grinding gouge' just as it is, and, simply request of my Gunsmith that appropriate powers be respected however that needs be done, and, that the numerals be applied to the Grip Frame front Strap, in a nice, neat, presentable sort of way.

Best of all possible Worlds then - preserve hard-won honest and real old History, and, via a Licensed Gunsmith, show respect to the BofATFandnowalsoE so they may be happy according to how the Gunsmith sees fit...so, if they are happy, you can be definitely happy. and no violations or re-dos then to the Gun's character and past.

This is not a Gun to restore in my opinion..it would be a complete bore then, compared to how, with merely a routine liberal Lube and light cleaning, it can remain itself, and, have it's own individual uniqueness.

Like that...

Muley Gil · #29 10-13-2012, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glowe

Gil - did you see the grind mark? I looks to be half way through the frame.

What Oyeboteb said.

DaSandmanCometh · #30 10-13-2012, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oyeboteb

Would not be hard for the 'Grind' mark-depression to be filled in via TIG Welding with an appropriate Alloy stick...or even MIG with some close-enough Alloy of Wire, then, it could be dressed down flat, and ( by appropriare procedures, with appropriate blessings, ) the Serial Number re-applied.

But heck, the de-farbing on the Butt IS part of the Revolver's History, even if the details as to how it came about, are not known.

If it was mine, I would leave the 'grinding gouge' just as it is, and, simply request of my Gunsmith that appropriate powers be respected however that needs be done, and, that the numerals be applied to the Grip Frame front Strap, in a nice, neat, presentable sort of way.

Best of all possible Worlds then - preserve hard-won honest and real old History, and, via a Licensed Gunsmith, show respect to the BofATFandnowalsoE so they may be happy according to how the Gunsmith sees fit...so, if they are happy, you can be definitely happy. and no violations or re-dos then to the Gun's character and past.

This is not a Gun to restore in my opinion..it would be a complete bore then, compared to how, with merely a routine liberal Lube and light cleaning, it can remain itself, and, have it's own individual uniqueness.

Like that...

Well I'm going to check out a few local gun smiths and see if they can stamp the SN into the inside of the frame so it's on there but not visible. From what you guys have said that should suffice. I really don't want to fill in the the area and have it stamped as that would take away from the gun and story as a whole IMO. The missing SN adds a bit of mystery to the whole thing and my grandmother has been racking her brain to try and remember who her dad might have got it from or where it came from. But as said, even if it never comes out it's kinda a cool thing that you don't know why it was removed.

I never take any of my guns on any base, it's such a hassle to begin with and I really don't trust those guys with my guns. I have a friend already there that's going to keep them for me until I get a place set up and my safe.

When I get a chance I'll keep you updated and post some pictures of it cleaned up.

Again, thank you all very much for helping us with this. And I'm not a one time posted on here. I found this site looking for info. on the gun and it's a great site with a lot of good info. and you guys, that's the hardest thing to find online is good people. So once I get done with my trip and get settled you'll find me on here more. I moderate another forum and I hate one time posters, only post when they need help and they they are gone.