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10-27-2012, 06:55 PM
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Triple Lock sn# 2747 chambered in .22 Long Rifle
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29aholic, 410bore, 992B, Bat Guano, Camster, charlies, clang444, Combat, COYOTEHUNTER, CptCurl, dacoontz, Dan M, Dave from Pa, Dave_n, DCWilson, DeathGrip, delta-419, DGT, DHENRY, ditrina, dmthomp32, Donald Paul, Doug M., Duke426, fdover, GCH, gdogs, GerSan69, gjamison, glowe, gmiller0737, Goony, gunfish, H Richard, HKSmith, Hondo44, Iggy, JayCeeNC, jaymoore, Jebus35745, Jim R, keith44spl, kennethg, kritter, Lee Barner, LEO918, long colt frazier, lowhog, Mike McLellan, Mike Q., mkk41, Muley Gil, Nedroe, Ol' Drover, olskool, opoefc, Pig Hunter, racoonbeast, rburg, rhmc24, RKmesa, roger bartlett, sceva, SDH, silvertip43, singleshot1, Sprefix, tom32, TripleLock, Widetrack, Wiregrassguy, zipty6 |
10-27-2012, 06:58 PM
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Very Cool Custom N22!
I'd bought that in a heartbeat
Congrats!
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10-27-2012, 07:14 PM
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Most conversions ruin guns but that has every appearance of a first class job by a true craftsman. It was a ton of work to do but makes a very cool revolver, congrats!
Good score on the book as well.
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10-27-2012, 08:48 PM
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That's one of the neatest old guns I've seen here, even if it isn't a factory job.
Great score.
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10-27-2012, 09:13 PM
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Excellant workmanship. I've seen quite a few of the British conversions on S&Ws and must say that the time and effort they put into these convesions is amazing. Nice find.
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10-27-2012, 09:14 PM
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Chad,
That is a very cool find. I agree that the work looks very, very well done. Gosh, if it were possible to find out who did the work then that would be some interesting info. Thanks for sharing this one. Daniel.
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10-27-2012, 09:22 PM
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So Cool that I need my Shades...
Thanks for sharing the great pics of a very well done conversion. An N-Frame 22 LR would have come home with me as well.
Super Cool!!!
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10-27-2012, 09:42 PM
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That is simply outstanding.
Thanks for sharing.
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10-27-2012, 10:20 PM
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Now that is a special gun, and cool beyond description. Hats off to the anonymous and excellent smith who did the conversion, and congratulations to you for jumping on it the moment you saw it.
An N-frame .22! Now my heart burns for one of those. Surely if there can be one, there could be another someplace. Right?
The overlong sleeves that permit counterboring the charge holes are very clever. And I love the hammer treatment. That is exactly the modification to a centerfire hammer that I have been considering if I am unable to find the prewar .22/32 hammer that I need.
"Like" isn't strong enough to express my appreciation for this gun. "infatuated" or "besotted" would be closer to describing my state of mind.
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10-27-2012, 10:24 PM
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Why did I pass that up? I saw it, but was fixated on finding something else, I guess. This show is a lot of fun. It is a "country show" for sure; free parking, and $2 to get in. You never know what you will find. Most times I leave empty handed, but one stellar Saturday I scored a Terrier, a Second Model .44 five inch, and a Savage 99T in 30/30. Talk about a blind hog finding an acorn!
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10-27-2012, 10:35 PM
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Very nice!
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10-27-2012, 10:45 PM
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That's one Smith conversion I would be proud to own first rate.
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10-27-2012, 10:54 PM
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The craftsmanship is just impeccable. Can you imagine what it would cost today to have such a conversion done to that standard?
I'm especially intrigued by the ejector star, and wondering just how that was engineered, fabricated, and fitted.
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10-27-2012, 11:01 PM
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That's got to be one of the heaviest .22 revolvers made!!
Neat, but I don't think I would want to sacrifice an original to make one.....
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10-27-2012, 11:53 PM
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Nicely done. I imagine that it would stand up well to the pounding of the .22 LR round.
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10-28-2012, 01:01 AM
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Fantastic! Definitely would have walked out with that one. Great find.
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10-28-2012, 02:59 AM
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I can understand why someone would build something like that, but I have no clue why they would ever let it go-------maybe because they could build another one anytime they wanted to do so. Count your blessings!!
Ralph Tremaine
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10-28-2012, 03:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rct269
I can understand why someone would build something like that, but I have no clue why they would ever let it go-------maybe because they could build another one anytime they wanted to do so. Count your blessings!!
Ralph Tremaine
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Ralph, I asked the seller if he had any history on the gun. The only information he had was that it was out of an estate of an older gentleman. It's my understanding there were a number of high end Smith's and Colt's in the estate and all were original and unaltered except for two, this gun and a 1917 Colt. The Colt had the same exact .22 cal conversion. It's certainly possible the older gentleman was a competent enough gunsmith to do it himself or knew someone that was, especailly if he had two guns with the same exact conversion. I was hoping someone here on the forum would chime in and say they had seen this conversion before and have a little information on who may have done the work, but maybe this is the only instance of this style of conversion being done. I'm sure I have read something in the past of a large bore centerfire converted to .22 rimfire, but I don't recall if it was the same style as the above gun. The Colt had already been sold or I would have brought the pair home.
Chad Gripp
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10-28-2012, 04:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigolddave
Why did I pass that up? I saw it, but was fixated on finding something else, I guess. This show is a lot of fun. It is a "country show" for sure; free parking, and $2 to get in. You never know what you will find. Most times I leave empty handed, but one stellar Saturday I scored a Terrier, a Second Model .44 five inch, and a Savage 99T in 30/30. Talk about a blind hog finding an acorn!
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Dave, You are correct, it is a true "country show" for sure. I think years ago it was $1 dollar to get in, but don't remember for sure. I do know it's been $2 for years and years. Like I said it's always been hit and miss for me, yet I always enjoy it. I only live 18 miles away and it's a drive through the country, so I go over in the morning, rub shoulders with the crowd, and then go back in the afternoon after the place has emptied out. Always a good way to spend the day.
I wouldn't feel to guilty about not buying the gun as it took me a few minutes to digest the whole thing. I knew the work was fist rate, but the whole British proofed, refinished, wrong stocks, conversion thing can be a little hard to swallow without chewing on it a bit. The true appreciation for the gun came when I got home, shot it, and found it to be very tight and accurate. Then when I cleaned it up and took pics and especially the close up pics, I found it to be just a great example of some very fine gunsmithing on a very good old Triple Lock.
Chad Gripp
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10-28-2012, 05:15 AM
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Chad I too am enamored with such a fine and unique piece. As David and Goony said the conversion has such creative solutions to the typical challenges of conversions. I studied that extractor star as well. I believe the original star has been retained albeit machined turned down with a newly created star plate affixed behind the original ratchet teeth.
I also regret the loss of the original gold medallion and checked stocks but would obtain a pair post haste and put the ribbon on that classy triple lock package!
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10-28-2012, 06:48 AM
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I tried to buy one like that.......
about 5 years ago off one of the auction sites, I think Gunsamerica. My funding ran out at $1700. I don't know if was the same one, but it was done like that. I, too was intrigued by the ejector star. That is truly an outstanding piece of work, congrats on pickin' it up.
Ned
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10-28-2012, 08:12 AM
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The gun laws in England came incrementally. At one point law-abiding citizens were only allowed to own 22 caliber firearms and you see a bunch of guns converted like this one. Eventually, of course, the guns were simply all banned and many were sold to exporters who shipped them to the U.S.
It is a well done conversion. Must be the heaviest 22 revolver in the world. Well, maybe the one Reg Mag in 22 has a longer barrel making it heavier.
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10-28-2012, 09:19 AM
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That is one beautiful gun. I'm surprised Saxon Pig didn't mention it, but you can fire high velocity ammo in that one.
Bob
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10-28-2012, 11:32 AM
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Genius artists are where you find them. I once had occasion to visit the home of a retired gentleman for some long forgotten business reason. The house had an attached garage---and another detached garage----or so it seemed. It was a COMPLETE prototype machine shop!
He could (and had) make anything----from scratch! His passion at the time was steam engines----small, medium, and large. He gave them away as presents----to his friends, also to schools and whatnot.
Now, if I could only find someone to make a .22 caliber Triplelock for me!!
Ralph Tremaine
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10-28-2012, 11:33 AM
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Wow just stunning beautiful revolver and machine work! My Dad and I were just talking about converting a cute little nickle 3 inch .32HE I picked up the other day cheap. It has a crack over one chamber in the cylinder. I also have the perfect TL donor gun to do one just like this. Mine is a cut down 4 inch nickle gun that was refinished, over polished, etc... Was going to letter it and restore it. If the letter came back as just a plain jane TL I was going to convert it to a 4 inch target model, already have the pre war rear sight for it. If the letter showed it was something a little more rare I would restore it to original specs. After seeing this I have to start one of these projects! I will do the first one on the little I frame, also might add target sights to it, but would be kind of cool to have it in .22 and in a config that S&W never made. That is pre war round butt .22 I frame, fixed sights and 3 inch barrel.
Matt
If there is enough interest I might take a break from knife making and do a few of this conversions.
Last edited by Pontiaker; 10-28-2012 at 11:35 AM.
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10-28-2012, 01:49 PM
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WoW!!!! Would have bought it in a heartbeat...
That is outstanding work and a great find!
Couple of years ago I saw a S&W 1917 converted to 22LR, the
work was no where near as nice as yours.
Congrats on the find...
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10-28-2012, 08:30 PM
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That is without a doubt the coolest gun I've seen in a very long time.
Well done, Sir!
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10-29-2012, 12:17 PM
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you sir, are ready for squirrel season. that is truly awesome. if there are others i'll bet not many. thanks for sharing. lee
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10-29-2012, 05:33 PM
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Same theme but not a S&W, my conversion of a repro Colt '51 Navy to .22RF. Sorry I don't have better pix because I gave it to my Son, a couple states away.
Barrel and cylinder are sleeved, a conversion ring made that fills the gap in cylinder length where nipples were removed and has the loading gate. Most metal removal was opening the frame for the loading gate and making a long slot to receive the ejector.
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10-29-2012, 07:43 PM
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Very nice conversion job.
FWIW, blank NOS extractor 'stars' used to be available some years back for the older revolvers. Numrich sold them in the US
They were available in K and N frame IIRC.
They still sell extractor blanks for newer models.
Extractor Blank - Needs Chamber Cuts. For Guns w/ Left Hand Ejector Rod Threads
Could be what was used in that part of the conversion.
Certainly no 'drop-in' part,,but a good start none the less and saving much machining time for the craftsman.
There's other ways to the conversion of course.
Looking at the proofs and markings,,I think the conversion was done outside of the UK on a surplused exported 455.
Just my opinion of course. Doesn't mean much,,and doesn't change the fact that it's one great looking revolver!
A nice job all the way around.
That too would have to come back home with me if I had seen it at a show.
Congrats.!
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10-29-2012, 08:17 PM
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Outstanding!
Given the opportunity, I'd have bought it in a New York minute.
Don
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10-29-2012, 08:38 PM
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Very Nice, I have seen at least 2 New Model # 3 Top breaks that were converted to 22 LR also in the same style and configuration that this Triplelock was done in. The owners of those guns valued way too much for me to chase them. I may have some pictures of one of them somewhere in my archives. I think maybe the Handejector (Lee) may have seen one at a Tucson show a few years ago when he came out to the SWCA convention in 2010, I cant remember if it was there then.
Dan
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10-29-2012, 09:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2152hq
Very nice conversion job.
FWIW, blank NOS extractor 'stars' used to be available some years back for the older revolvers. Numrich sold them in the US
They were available in K and N frame IIRC.
They still sell extractor blanks for newer models.
Extractor Blank - Needs Chamber Cuts. For Guns w/ Left Hand Ejector Rod Threads
Could be what was used in that part of the conversion.
Certainly no 'drop-in' part,,but a good start none the less and saving much machining time for the craftsman.
There's other ways to the conversion of course.
Looking at the proofs and markings,,I think the conversion was done outside of the UK on a surplused exported 455.
Just my opinion of course. Doesn't mean much,,and doesn't change the fact that it's one great looking revolver!
A nice job all the way around.
That too would have to come back home with me if I had seen it at a show.
Congrats.!
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Thanks for the link. They have the date partially wrong; left hand thread is correct as 1951 for J frames but it’s 1961 for K and N.
The OP's gun has bluing on the grooves of the ratchets but the plate does not, and I believe I see brown soldering flux residue if it's not grease from when the extractor plate may have been soldered on.
The gun should be stamped "Not English Make" if sent out of the UK as surplus which it looks like it is but then X'd out.
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10-29-2012, 09:40 PM
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Gripper,
I'd like to see one of your excellent photos of the hammer side of the frame mounted firing pin if it's not too much trouble.
thx,
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10-29-2012, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo44
Gripper,
I'd like to see one of your excellent photos of the hammer side of the frame mounted firing pin if it's not too much trouble.
thx,
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Here ya go Hondo44.
2152hq, Here is a pic of the underside of the ejector star.
Note the above matching serial number on the extractor star and below on the barrel. It's kind of cool this conversion was made from an all original gun and not one all cobbled up with mix matched parts.
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10-30-2012, 02:27 AM
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Thank you Gripper. Your photos are masterpieces, it's like looking thru my 5X gunsmith glasses.
I truly like what you pointed out, the fact that all the original numbered parts of the gun have been utilized and with the least possible modification. I was very curious if the original slot for the hammer nose (firing pin) had been welded up. But no, not necassary. And a simple extractor plate added to the original again to work with the protruding cylinder sleeves to close up the cyl/breechface gap to .22 dimensions.
A very unigue acquisition, indeed.
Thanks again for not only grabbing it but sharing it here as well.
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10-30-2012, 04:48 AM
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Gripper, I'd like to add my thanks and appreciation for your post & pix. I've been a shooter for 50 yrs, a machinist for 35, and a tool & die maker for 15. This piece was right in the middle of my cup of tea !
Enjoy it well !
Larry
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10-30-2012, 11:09 AM
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What a beautiful gun and what a wonderful talent to make such a conversion. I am totally amazed. I have worked with some guys like that. They can see the finished product in their mind before they start. Genius.
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10-30-2012, 11:21 AM
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I've stumbled across a few .22 conversions myself. Here's a post about a converted Model 10, shortly after I had joined the forum: Model 10 - chambered for .22LR
Here's a thread showing a converted big-bore break top that I picked up at the Wanenmacher show last year: Tulsa gun show haul - Nov 2011
I've also posted before about a S&W 1917 converted to .22, but I don't think I've ever shown pictures. I bought it at a gun show in 2007. The seller also had a Colt 1917 similarly converted and I did not get it - probably should have. Here are some pictures. You can click on the pics for larger versions.
The underside of the ejector star has the same serial number as the frame and barrel, 30133. So it's the original ejector but modified with a plate added to it. The cylinder appears to be sleeved and with a ring added around it on the breech end, for correct head spacing. The hammer nose is original but modified in shape, and the breech face has been modified as well.
The rear sight looks to be slide adjustable for windage, and the front sight blade has been replaced with a narrower blade, presumably of appropriate height. All very interesting, a lot of work nicely done, and the gun doesn't shoot worth a flip as far as I can tell.
Last edited by Tom K; 09-06-2022 at 09:52 AM.
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10-30-2012, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo44
Thanks for the link. They have the date partially wrong; left hand thread is correct as 1951 for J frames but it’s 1961 for K and N.
The OP's gun has bluing on the grooves of the ratchets but the plate does not, and I believe I see brown soldering flux residue if it's not grease from when the extractor plate may have been soldered on.
The gun should be stamped "Not English Made" if sent out of the UK as surplus which it looks like it is but then X'd out.
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It sure does look like they used a plate soldered onto the original star. Great pics.
What proofs & marks are on the revolver would indicate to me that it was Surplused ,,Sold from Service' mark >/<,,,but the conversion not done in England.
The 'Not English Make' stamp was a proof house required stamping.
It was placed on all non-English mgf firearms proofed at their facilitys (London and Birmingham).
Everything was proof fired, so foreign arms got that mark in addition to the required proof stamps.
In use from 1904 to 1925.
But sometimes you see it on arms proofed a little later than that.
The other proof marks are Birmingham View 'BV' (frame & bbl), Nitro Proof 'NP' (bbl), and third on the bbl I can't read but is probably the Birmingham Military Arms proof ''BM'.
All (each) of the proof marks are inside of a circle,, indicating the proof of a non-English made firearm.
On English made firearms, they stand alone,,no circle around the mark.
Then the application of the 'Not English Make' (corrected) marking to complete the process.
All those would have been applied when the revolver went to the English Military from the US.
If the revolver had been converted after surplus sale while still in England, the 22 conversion process would have required it to be presented for re-proof.
A new set of proof marks would be stamped on it indicating the caliber, again nitro proof, and depending on the time it was done, the cartridge length and pressure in tons/sq in ('54 law).
The laws and markings changed in 1925 and again in 1954, with updates to both.
Better it wasn't cluttered up with all those stamped markings.
It looks great just the way it is.
I like the 1917 and the 1851 repro conversions too. Custom projects always catch my attention.
Last edited by 2152hq; 10-30-2012 at 07:44 PM.
Reason: corrected wording
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10-30-2012, 06:52 PM
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Great proof mark info, thanks.
Maybe I misunderstood what you wrote about the Not English "Made". I understood that it was not stamped until the firearm was being exported by the government. Please clarify.
Thanks,
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10-30-2012, 07:42 PM
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I miss typed 'Made' there,,should be Not English 'Make'.
Thanks for catching that.
I'll correct the mistake.
'Not English Make' was marked by the Proof Houses in England.
It was applied on any foreign mfg firearm received at the proof house.
Everything went through the proof house.
English Proof Law did acknowledge some other country's proof laws, Commonwealth and a few European countrys generally just to confuse things further.
In those cases the 'Not English Make' would be the only mark applied at the time.
This shows up mostly on commercial sporting arms brought into England from the few 'acceptable' Countrys in Europe to be sold during that time.
A simple 'England' stamp is often seen on both surplus and commercial firearms.
That was a export/import ID stamp for Country of origin.
You commonly see Spain, Italy, Germany, W.Germany, Austria and others stamped in the metal or even the wood sometimes.
That hasn't been used much passed the late 1950's I don't believe.
Last edited by 2152hq; 10-30-2012 at 07:51 PM.
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10-30-2012, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom K
I've stumbled across a few .22 conversions myself. I've also posted before about a S&W 1917 converted to .22, but I don't think I've ever shown pictures. I bought it at a gun show in 2007. The seller also had a Colt 1917 similarly converted and I did not get it - probably should have. Here are some pictures. You can click on the pics for larger versions.
It's hard to tell from the picture but the underside of the ejector star has the same serial number as the frame and barrel, 30133. So it's the original ejector but modified with a plate added to it. The cylinder appears to be sleeved and with a ring added around it on the breech end, for correct head spacing. The hammer nose is original but modified in shape, and the breech face has been modified as well.
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Tom,
Thanks for posting excellent pics of another neat conversion. It's interesting to compare the two. I like the simpler way your firing pin was adapted. I would pop out the recoil shield and replace with the Smith 22 version. The old centerfire hole is just another entrance that allows crude to get in there. JMHO though.
The star plate seems to have extra work involved compared to the OPs conversion. But still very creative and very professional craftsmanship.
Thx for showing that one!
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10-30-2012, 08:07 PM
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Gentleman, Thanks for showing your conversions. I appreciate the proof mark info as well. We may never know when my Triple Lock was converted or why it was choosen for the conversion. Speculation would lead me to believe my gun was considered a used, surplus, military gun and at the time held little or no value for the sportsman or target shooter, especially being chambered in .455. So obviously a good canidate for a project as opposed to a 1st, 2nd, or even 3rd model chambered in .44 or whatever was available at the era of the conversion. Who knows when the work was done. It could have been done pre or post WWII. In any case the gun was done by a gun savvy individual that knew he could turn an unspecial gun at the time into something unique.
I appreciate everyone's interest, information, and participation in this thread. It all makes for some interesting reading.
Chad Gripp
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10-30-2012, 08:21 PM
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Chad, I just noticed your avatar pic. Would it be fair to say that you have an interest in Triple Locks?
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10-30-2012, 08:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom K
Chad, I just noticed your avatar pic. Would it be fair to say that you have an interest in Triple Locks?
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Tom, I do like Triple Locks, but I think everyone that hangs out on this section of the forum likes them also or at least has an appreciation for that third lock. For a gun that was made a century ago and with tooling we now could consider almost crude to todays standards, I think the Triple Lock is an incredible piece of work.
Chad
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10-30-2012, 09:36 PM
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Looks like a 'Notable Thread' to me!
Well done to all above. I love threads like this.
One of those sneaky things that entertain and teach at the same time.
I think I'll drop a line to the great ape on that 'Notable' thingy.
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10-31-2012, 02:17 AM
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The American Rifleman magazine for Nov. 1953 has a letter from Mr. John Hammer, Secretary of the Florida Gun Collector's Assoc., with a picture of a S&W Triple Lock revolver. The gun is in .22RF caliber, has a 6.5 in. barrel, blue finish, with a ten shot recessed chambers cylinder. Bead type front sight and adjustable for windage, but not elevation, rear sight. The letter states that officials at S&W could not furnish any info. on the gun but suspected it was made up on special order. The picture also shows the gun does not have the groove on the left recoil shield that allows the locking bolt at the rear of the cylinder to slide home without catching on the frame.
When I saw this letter, I called Mr. Hammer, got the name of the gun's owner, called him and got the serial number. I called Carl Hellstrom, at S&W, and asked for more info. As I recall, I got a call back that said ten guns were made on a special order invoice, for target purposes, and they would send me a copy of the invoice. I'm still waiting. Ed.
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11-01-2012, 10:03 PM
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I had planned to make the Princeton show, but plans changed. Now I'm not sure whether to be thankful I didn't go and be tempted by something I clearly can't afford, or regretful that I didn't get to see it in the "flesh".
Congratulations on a superb purchase.
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11-01-2012, 10:26 PM
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And Parts Is Parts...
Interesting re-use of a Remington 742 rear sight....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom K
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