There are already a few wonderfully informative threads on this weapon here so I apologize if this one seems redundant. My gun has some very interesting markings that I hope you can help me to understand.



I assume this one is the proof marking. Above it though there seems to be a sort of chevron.



This has the two crossed swords. In between it looks a bit like a "2" and on the right it looks like a "B"



This inscription looks a bit like "LTc Englishmake". Which can't be right. The first part could be a rank I suppose.



I have no idea about these markings. There a couple around the cylinder as well.



"J.R. Brown , Oxfords" 17481

It's exciting to hold a piece of history like this. I anxiously await your wisdom. Thank you!

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I can tell you a couple of things but others with more expertise will come along and give you all the right information. If you do a forum search, you will pull up many threads where your questions are answered. The chevron you refer to is called a Broad Arrow. It is characteristic of British Commonwealth guns made for WWII. The two crossed swords is an inspector's mark. The 2 and B indicate where it was inspected. The phrase "Not English Make" was stamped on guns exported from Britian after the war. That's as close as I can get and I'm sure if I have misstated anything, it'll get corrected. BTW I would like to see more of the complete revolver, please.

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

First off, what you have is not a M1917. It started life as a .455MKII Hand Ejector 2nd Model. If it is currently in .45ACP (with clips) or .45Auto Rim it is because someone has converted it. wiregrassguy has pretty well hit it on some of the various British property and inspections marks, However it was WW1, not WW2.
The other marks on the barrel and the"Not English Made" are commercial proofs that English law required when the gun was surplussed and was offered for civilian sale.

The name on the bottom of the grip panels is not common. I can't make out what is on the the one opposite the name.
Might be interesting to try to trace the name, but "J. Brown" is not going to be easy....

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

Welcome to the Forum billyclyde. You have a 455 Mark II Hand Ejector Second Model made from 1915 to 1917, with about 70,000 total manufacture. These guns were sold to England through Remington to support the Great War effort. About 14000 went to Canada and some went to other British Commonwealth nations supporting the war effort. With the Not English Made stamp indicates that this gun went to England.

You have a full complement of stampings. The barrel stampings indicate that the gun was inspected and proofed in Birmingham. Included in the stampings are BP is Definitive Proof, BV is View Mark, NP is Nitro Proof. Guy has helped with other markings. The name is interesting and if you can make out the other stock butt letters, it might help nail down where the gun was used. Serial number on butt indicates this gun may have been shipped the first year of production. The hole would have been where a lanyard ring would have been originally. Now we need to see the whole gun - post more pics.

The 'not english made' mark was used from 1925 to 1955.

Regards

AlanD
Sydney

Billyclyde, welcome to the forum!

You have the "MAKE" correct in Not English Make. Is the serial # on the rear face of the cylinder? If not, it's been modified probably to shoot 45 ACP/AR as was indicated above. Have you tried chambering ammunition in it?

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Jim
S&WCA #819

There are several web pages in Great Britain that have links to the military archives and you can research J.R.Brown and the Oxfords and obtain copies of Brown's service records, any battles he might have fought in and any medals, orders or decorations he might have been awarded. Google British service records for WW1, etc. The Brits are very good about records. There was a lengthy thread on this Forum several years ago about researching a revolver similar to yours and the amazing amount of information that was turned, including the officer's daily dairy of life in the trenches with his trusty S&W! , etc. Good luck. Ed.

Some great comments here so far. I appreciate your time and expertise. I've added a few more pictures for those who are curious. It has been converted to .45 and uses the half-moon clips. It is functional as well. It seems to be in quite good condition and is really a beautiful weapon.

I am especially interested in the personalized markings on the grip. In the most cursory of searches I've discovered the "Ox & Bucks" light infantry unit based in Oxford that had a long service history.

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Here's a website you might explore:
Home - Soldiers of Oxfordshire

A possibility from the SOFO database is Lt James Raitt Brown - 43rd and 9th Battalion.

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

The crossed sabers/swords with a B on the right is the Birmingham Proof House Date Code.
There is a letter stamped on the left. It started with A in 1950 and went through Z in '74 ( Letter 'I' was not used.)
The number in the bottom position is the inspectors ID number.

The proof marks on the bbl and frame ring are Birmingham Proofs and are the normal seen View, Difinitive Proof and Nitro Proof.
They are each stamped inside a circle, as that signifys the proofing of a foreign mfg'r firearm. English make firearm would have the same proofs, but none would be inside a circle.

The 'Not English Make' was an additional Proof House mandated stamping applied at the time of proof to further signify that the firearm was not of English mfg.
That was used till 1955.




Since the date code stamp was used starting in 1950, that unreadable small letter code on the left side of the crossed sabers should be a A, B, C, D, E or F,,,,,if all the planets are a in line.


The crossed flags or pennants is the original English military proof mark done to the revolver in WW1 when it went there for service .

Would this weapon have only been issued as an officer's sidearm by the army? Could it have been privately bought and carried by an enlisted man?

Is it likely a weapon that was decommissioned after WWI and shipped back to the U.S. for commercial sale? Is there anyway to know if it was shipped back to Britain after Dunkirk and served in WWII? It made its way into my grandfather's custody in around 1967.

First things first. get a S&E factory historical letter for the gun. It will tell you if the gun was a British purchase under their contract with S&W for these guns ( which it probably was, due to the military acceptance/proof stamps.) or whether the gun was sent to a commercial dealer/distributor in England and sold commercially. British military regulations provided for issuance of these handguns to Officers, in most cases. That's not to say an enlisted rank could not have acquired one from various sources due to the events of combat. If your gun had been privately bought it would not have the military stamps. As I said above, if you wish to research the British records, there will be all you want to know, and more, available on J. R. Brown, I'm sure.
There's no records of guns donated to Britain in the "Gun for Britain" program of 1940-41.

Just as a footnote: The broad arrow was stamped on all equipment used by the Defence Ministry, whether it was guns, knives, truncheons, or ARP (Air Raid Protection) whistles.

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Why, I aughta.....

I think all British and Commonwealth officers bought their sidearms until about 1920, but they could buy from commercial sources or Out of Stores, from military weapons. If the latter, a second, opposing Broad Arrow was usually stamped, signifying Sold Out of Stores, meaning that it was no longer Crown property.

Other sources for buying revolvers were Wilkinson Sword, where officers could shop for revolver and sword in one place, and they had Webley make up special Wilkinson-Webleys that were finely finished, with honed actions. Also popular was the Army and Navy Cooperative Society, a store system for officers that sold all manner of things from camp gear to you-name-it. They sold well made sporting rifles and shotguns as well as SMLE's and handguns.

Of course, any commercial dealer could also be utilized, and some had guns or nice leather cases for them, with their retail names on them. You can see examples in the British Gun Pub on Gunboards. I hope that I can mention them here. Members there can also often find the owner in regimental records. You were given one source here, too, of course. As far as I know, enlisted men were supposed to carry only issued handguns, but of course, many were "acquired" and some commanders simply ignored regulations about that. Colonial troops often stood the best chance of taking home captured or "acquired" Allied pistols. In Robt. C. Ruark's books about the Mau-Mau "Emergency" in Kenya in the 1950's, the author noted that "the lads were sticky fingered" and produced all sorts of Allied and enemy handguns when they needed to arm themselves against the native terrorism. Ruark was in Kenya at the time, and reported on what he saw. In a, "Life" article called, "Your Guns Go With You", he had a photo of a Kenya farmer in his bathtub, an S&W like yours nearby, in case a houseboy secretly involved in Mau-Mau try to murder him in his tub! I've also seen a photo of Kenya cops standing by the body of a white farmer who was mutilated by terrorists. One cop is wearing a US holster and belt with a M-1911 or 1911A-1 .45. Probably his personal gun, as Webley and S&W .38's were the issued item then.

If you can find a copy of, "Something of Value", maybe in a library or used book store, you'll find it very informative about guns there, as well as various aspects of life in that colony during the 1950's. I think Ruark was the ONLY US newsman and novelist who understood African issues well and was honest in reporting about them. He was also a safari hunter there and that experience was reflected in his novels. His white hunter pal, Harry Selby, was probably the basis for his book character Peter MacKenzie.

Anyway, those .455's and other surplus handguns were sold by the UK during the 1950's and '60's. The prices for them in ads then seem cheap, until you recall that many men were then earning min. wage of maybe $1.40 an hour! A Webley that then sold for $14.95 will now often draw $500-600 from collectors! If it is a Wilkinson model or a WG, the cost may reach $1,000 or more in top condition.

In 1966, I bought a .455 MK II like yours in Denver for $31.58, inc. sales tax. Today, that gun would sell for about $1100-1200! I saw one in lesser condition in a store here this year for about $1100. Another member was with me and can confirm that. (Ask Bob Bettis.) I said that I thought it was overpriced, given the condition, but Bob pointed out that it was still in the original .455 and not in too bad a shape. (I'd say NRA Good condition.) It has probably sold since. There were only some 70,000 made, and war and time and conversions to other calibers have taken their toll. Prices will probably rise.

Remember, these guns appeal not just to S&W collectors, but to British martial arms collctors, worldwide.

Bear in mind that accuracy with your undersized .451-.452" .45 bullets may be marginal. Handloads in .45 Auto Rim cases with .455-.457" bullets of lead may be much better. BUT...your cylinder WAS NOT heat treated, as were M-1917 US .45 cylinders! And .45 ACP normal pressures approach PROOF pressures for .455 ammo! Load with that in mind. A 250 grain bullet at some 650 FPS is probably ideal, but check old loading manuals or correspond with those who load for these guns.

The US Govt. REQUIRED S&W to heat treat M-1917 cylinders, so those were "done." Most other S&W guns were not heat-treated for added toughness with smokeless powders until roughly 1920.

Finally, I was about 8 years old when I saw that photo in, "Life", but already very advanced for a child. I am almost sure that that gun by the bathtub was a .455 like yours. But it may have been a .38 -200 from WW II. Both found their way into private hands after those wars and were very widely distributed in British lands. I know that if I had to stop a Mau-Mau terrorist, I'd have preferred the heavier .455.

This took a long time to type. I hope that some here find it interesting. Those .455 MK II Hand Ejectors are certainly interesting guns, as is their history. If someone has one in .455, Hornady and Fiochhi make the ammo.

"Finally, I was about 8 years old when I saw that photo in, "Life", but already very advanced for a child."

What happened???

You know I'm teasing TS. I always enjoy yore posts.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

It was an interesting post Texas Star. I appreciate you taking the time.

I got into a bit of searching on some of the suggested sites and the available records on the UK National Archives site. It's certainly possible that this was Lt. James Raitt Brown's sidearm. The other "J.R. Brown"s that were in Oxfordshire units were enlisted men. But there's no conclusive proof and I did not find any further information about him specifically.

billyclyde,
Have you determined what the gun is chambered for?

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Gil-

I just saw your post. What I meant was that as a lad, I was more cerebral than most of my friends, who didn't think much in world terms. They had the Texas obsession with football and were later into cars. Some hunted, but few were really serious gun enthusiasts, although some had guns brought back from WW II by male relatives.

I think I was the only one who really studied firearms and bought books and magazines about them. Or who read books by the African adventurers or by Ruark. Of course, I got more out of those books when I read them later as an adult but for an 8-year-old, I was was pretty capable of ID'ing guns even in magazine articles, or would try to find out which gun I saw.

I read Hemingway's, "The Old Man and the Sea" at eight. My aunt had it in a Reader's Digest Condensed Edition. You know any other eight-year-olds who've done that?

Thanks for the kind comment on my posts. I also read yours.

Interesting sidelights!


I remembver the 'Mau Maou period having been in the NEws quite a bit. The original Jack Parr Show had focused or paused on it many times during that period.

There were concerns over the safety of Albert Schweitzer and his Clinic during that time, also.

I have the Robert Ruark Book "Something of Value", but I have not read it yet.

+1 on "something of value", & all of Ruark's works.

rayb

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"cumplo pero no obedezco"