I came across this 4th change model 1905 today and had a few questions. Specifically the caliber, "C*" to the left of the serial number and generally what is the story behind this gun. I believe it to be a pre war lend lease made late 1940-early 1941. It does not have the upgraded safety and all numbers match. The grips are not original obviously. Any information that can be provided about any of the markings would be appreciated. Thanks,
Lee

The BNP and barrel stampings are consistent with a ex-British or Commonwealth service revolver that was proof-tested prior to sale on the commercial market. I would not be surprised if the stocks are original, as the earlier K-200/"pre-Victory" guns had this style - check the inside of the panels for a penciled or stamped serial number.

The "C*" on the bottom of the grip frame may indicate Canadian use, but I'm not sure. Another interesting item is the "Special" on the barrel scratched out, but the gun being proofed for .38 Special (1.15" case length, as opposed to .787" for the .38 S & W). Do you think it is an original Special, with chamber shoulders in the cylinder bores, or a conversion from .38 S & W?

__________________
Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

I think it was originally a special as it is marked as such and a 38/200 will fit. I will have to do some measuring to determine the depth and diameter of the cylinders and shoulders. I am really curious about the "C*" as a lot of times a "*" indicates factory rework, however, there would be another gun out there with this serial number starting with a C prefix. The special has been scratched out, prior to the final finish being applied and it almost looks like vice marks on the cylinder maybe where it was held to stamp it. Surely someone else has one of these and will chime in,
Lee

PS It definitely has shoulders as it would have been a .38 SPL. I will take some measurements today when I am at the shop and post.

Might this be a a US Victory Model that somehow found its way into the UK? The dull gray finish and four-inch bbl. and the .38 Special bbl. marking make me wonder.

Some .38 Special chambers have been bored so sloppily that a .38 S&W cartridge will fit. I had two M-19 .357's during the Bangor-Punta years that'd accept FIRED cases from a .38-200. There was some swelling of .357 brass and slightly difficult extraction. Just sloppy QC at the factory. I never tried to actually fire .38 S&W ammo, as I knew it was too wide for the presumed bore.

The .38-200 cases were fired in my brother's pre-Victory Model .38-200, which had a six-inch bbl. and checkered grips with the silver S&W medallion. It had the usual UK proof marks and Crown property Broad Arrow.

I tried the fired .38 S&W cases in the chambers because they seemed a little loose when I loaded .38 Special or .357 ammo, and I was having hard extraction.

The cylinder is 1.566" long and the chamber is .394" for 1.190" then tapers to .359" for the final .376" nearest the forcing cone.
Lee

Seems to be .38 Special length on the chambers, not sure on the diameter.

How strange if it was reverse-converted, from .38 Special to S & W?

__________________
Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

The bore is hard to measure as it is a 5 land 5 groove right twist. From land to 180 degree out groove it measures .351" I don't have the desire to slug it and put it on "V" blocks to find the actual diameter

Lee

There have been several previous reports on this forum regarding legitimate .38 Special chambers being found as sloppy enough to accept .38 S&W, so I guess those exist. None of my .38 Specials will. Firing lead bullet .38 S&W cartridges in such chambers would be OK, as the bullet would simply deform enough to go down the bore.

The SN is just before the dawn of the 1st South African order, May 1940 serials at around 685XXX. Conversions from Special to .38-200/.380 Mk II are generally marked .38/.380 or simply /.380. During this period Brits bought anything on the shelf. I own a Police Positive converted to .38 S&W/-200/.380 MkII however you call it. I am not familiar with the C* but am prepared to accept it as an early but discarded conversion mark.

Still don't have anything definitive on this one, can anyone shed some light?
Lee

The gun has obviously been refinished.
That MAY be the only good news.
The barrel and cyl should have serial numbers that match the butt number- back of cyl where charge holes are, bottom of barrel with cyl open.
Do they match?

If I read you correctly, it will chamber 38 Spec and 38 S&W?
If so, it is positively a parts gun.

If so, I'd leave it alone. Many guns rechambered from 38S&W to Spec have very hard extraction that takes all the fun out of shooting.
There are plenty of good WW II guns available.
Why buy a parts/junker that may have problems?

__________________
Regards,
Lee Jarrett

All SNs match on this particular gun. Yes, it will chamber a .38SSW and a .38spl. I am tempted to get this gun lettered to find out if some light could be shed on this weird configuration. I am inclined to think it is not a parts gun, how could it be if the barrel and frame SN match the cylinder? It is clearly British at some point and clearly proofed for .38 spl at some point. I would love to hear how this could have possibly happened.
Lee

Hi again, a few things I can share. 225 Blue 4" .38 specials were shipped to Britain on 6/17/40. Your gun went through Birmingham in 1957. It also went through Briitsh military acceptance evidenced by the Broad Arrow to "lazy E" acceptance/inspection marks. I assume you have have crossed pennants as well.

I see no reason to alter my original thinking. You have a "Battle of Britain" era conversion to .38-200 with original grips (or equivalent). Although the majority of .38 Specials shipped in this period were 5 and 6 inch, we have confirmation on the 4"s. We know there were conversions, just no reference on the C*. We have seen (I own) British S&Ws made it through the entire war and were returned to the US without acquiring any post factory markings, or only military markings, or only commercial proofs.

It was 1940, the war was going very badly, weapons were rushed into service. Perhaps yours was converted outside normal depot circumstances? (lacking the 38/380) I.E. issued to the Home Guard as a Special, later collected for regular service and converted? One can only speculate. Its a great piece of history!

Thanks for the reply. I will most likely pick this one up once a few work things settle down. I think the price will probably between the 300-400 range. Not sure. Is the type that would probably be worth lettering?
Lee

I see $300 as close to top end. Too many nice commercial grade British Service Revolvers with good finish and nickel medallions have gone for that recently. Since they are not i.d.'d as Victory Models they do not appear to inflate. A letter most likely show it was either shipped to Grant and Lacy in Britain or more likely the British Purchasing Commission. I would not bother.

Thanks for the insight.
Lee