Pre war K frame grips with large medallions are a scarce commodity. I was fortunate to aquire a great representation of these grips numbered to a equally good representation of a .38 M&P 1905 4th change. I have only seen two other sets of grips like these. One set was pencil numbered and the other stamped. I believe both were in the 611,000 serial number range. The serial number of this gun is 610355 and was shipped March 1931. Please share any other large medallion grips you have.

Chad Gripp

I don't have any at the present time to share but have long argued that they exist. Great post.

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

I don't have any at this time, either. And I'm equally convinced they do exist. In the past I've had several sets that I'm convinced were original. And I've had a set I'm also convinced were made from N grips that were refitted to a K frame gun. If you've got a set, look closely at them. It seems a good workman can alter a set of N's to fit a K and its hard to tell they've done it. They seem to sand the border up near the top of the back of the grip.

__________________
Dick Burg

And all along the forestrap to make them fit. They actually make a more hand filling Magna for a K frame because of the extra thickness.

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

I really like those grips. A member here on the forum (I can't remember who now), showed a picture once, that had a couple of sets of the pre-war large medallions that had not yet been installed in a set of grips. I would love to have a pair!

__________________
Miss My Buddy crsides!!

Those are absolutely gorgeous, and a perfect match, condition wise, for that beautiful M&P. Thanks for posting. That gives a novice S&W collector something to aspire to.

I am curious why these stocks would be so rare? According to Supica's SCSW, the Diamond Walnut-Large Silver Medallion were made from 1929-1941. There must have been hundreds of thousands of square butt Model 1905s made in those years. I would admit that are probably few left that are as nice as the OP's. Is Supica wrong in his assesement?

these don't number to the gun, got them in a trade.

__________________
George Jamison

Times change. 10 years ago you could attend almost any large gun show and pick up a set of 1937 Contract grips and harvest the metal. The wood was just trash, so the price was pretty darn reasonable back then.

Guess I've got to go digging in my piles of junk. For a while I had a few extra sets, enough to attempt to convert them to buttons on a Woolrich Chamois shirt. I never bothered, but should have. Someplace I've even got a set of replacement items made from Sterling Silver. A jeweler had a die maker produce a stamp that would knock out either Sterling or 14K gold, you choice. Cost was fairly high, but not unreasonable. I should still have the set of silver ones...someplace.

__________________
Dick Burg

During the pre war period Smith apparently shifted to simplifying things and switched to the smaller I frame size flat silvers in K frame stocks soon after introducing them c. 1928-29. And continued post war by making all medallions the same small size even on N frame stocks.

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

Hi Glowe, The large medallions were available as early as 1929 and as late as 1941. I just don't think Smith & Wesson produced many K frame grips with the large medallions or at least we as collectors see darn few. Without looking up the facts and figures on the number of N frames produced in that time period and shipped with large medallions, I would say we are looking at somewhere between 25,000 to 30,000 sets were manufactured. This would include some 2nd and 3rd model .44's, but not all and of course 99.9% of all RM's, Heavy Duties, and Outdoorsmans were shipped wearing large madallions. So large medallions are a common as far as N frames. So with the above taken into consideration and the hundreds of thousands of K frames manufactured at the same time it would make us think the large medallion K frame grips are as common as the guns themselves, but they are just not. To add to that, the only ones we have found so far are in the 610-611000 serial number range and there are only a handful. This is what leads us to believe that Smith & Wesson only manufatured a small quantity of these grips for a very short time, hence the rarity. Very good question and thanks for asking......As time goes by more may surface and more conclusions may be drawn.

Chad Gripp

M&P's are fun to collect. There are a number of variations to chase and it won't break the bank to put a few nice ones in the safe.

Chad

Here's a good comparison shot

May I ask the serial number on your large medallion grips? Thanks for the pics.

Chad

I've posted these before in several threads on this topic. And I have seen more than a handful of these large medallion K-Frame prewar grips, all of which have been in the 611XXX range (one set was in the high 610XXX range). Here is the only set that currently I own - I'm still looking for that perfect M&P Target (like Chad's) somewhere near that range to mount them on.





For comparison with a "standard medallion" set:





They are very cool...

__________________
Richard
Engraved S&W fan

Can't recall if I have posted these previously. I got them from Lee Jarrett a year and a half ago during the great Handejector accessory sale.




No. 611127. Interestingly, the numbering is hybrid, with the last three digits stamped into the wood under the hard-to-read pencil equivalent. The first three pencil digits are easy to read.



Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought the large medallion K-frame stocks were limited to 1930. I had supposed that the silver medallion magnas were introduced for the N-frames, then the design was ported to the K frame guns. I bet a lot of wood was split and wasted getting those larger medallions properly seated in the smaller K-frame half rounds, after which the decision was made to go to smaller medallions for the K guns. Both my K-22 ODs have the smaller medallions; the earliest one is from 1932.

My hypothesis is that any large medallion stocks numbered 610xxx or 611xxx will be original, but that large medallion stocks with later serial numbers may not be. I'd like to see a census of all serial numbers from stocks that have large silver medallions.

__________________
David Wilson

Just to put some numbers out there for consideration, I will report that my Internal and Mostly Subconscious Statistician suspects that no more than 1500 sets of large-medallion K-frame stocks were produced. My IMSS also expresses the opinion that no more than 20 sets have been identified over the years.

Under the Delphi Principle that the average wisdom of an informed (or even semi-informed) group is more accurate than the wisdom of any single member, I invite others to add their best guesses to this thread. Let's see where our average wisdom lies.

__________________
David Wilson

David, Your a genius! Best explanation I have heard.....for anything.

Chad

So David, what stocks were used on most of the square butt K frame revolvers from 1928 to 1941?

Service stocks with small silver medallions -- almost exclusively. And towards the end of the '30s we begin to see K-magnas with small silver medallions.

__________________
David Wilson

David, Your figures may very well be correct. We may be able to narrow it further by using the 5% survival rate theory. If we do that we are looking at 400 sets manufactured. I don't think a figure between 1500 and 400 is out of line at all.... Between your IMSS and my calculations we could get this thing figured out. :-)

Chad

What we call the survival rate is in real-world terms an observation rate, and to be precise an observation rate limited by the number of people who are actually trying to observe the item of interest. As time goes by the observation rate will approach the actual (but undetermined) survival rate, but only in the rare case of small initial populations will it ever converge with it.

The observation rate will be higher for charismatic collectibles like the K-22 Second Model, the prewar K-32 Target Revolver and K-32 Masterpiece, the Prewar .22/32 Kit Gun, and the 320 Revolving Rifle simply because more people are looking for them; even less obsessive collectors may be able to recognize one when they see it. The observation rate may be lower for smaller and less attention-demanding items like large-medallion prewar service stocks simply because a lot of handlers can miss the fact that there is a difference in medallion size in the stocks they have before them. As these stocks change hands, they will eventually move into the field of view of those who are sensitized to them. There they will be noted and recorded, and through time we will get to the five percent neighborhood. But right now, and assuming the the 20-sets guess is accurate, it may be that we have noted only two percent (or even less) of what was originally produced.

So there is much room left for further speculation.

__________________
David Wilson

This is interesting stuff. Now what I am understanding is that the K frame large medallion stocks were limited to around 1930. After that date, S&W went to the small medallions until the Magna stocks became available in the late 1930s.

If the large silver medallions were available in the 611xxx range, that would place their use in the mid 1930s using the SWCA database. Supica states that large silver medallion stocks were used from 1929 to 1941 and the small silver medallions were introduced in 1946.

Since I have been using SCSW3 data to identify the proper stocks for various years of manufacture, is there enough information to add corrections to the SCSW3 database for page 21? The SWCA K Frame database lists only one large medallion stock on a 596XXX gun. The stocks were not numbered and the gun was not dated. There is a 587XXX 1934 SB gun with non-medallion stocks listed. Also of interest is that there are 15 RB guns identified from 1929 to 1941. There were 20 SB guns and 27 Targets in the same timeframe, so I would assume that there were more square butt guns made in this era than round butt?

The Great Depression seems to have distorted S&W production and shipping schedules, and we need to look at large spreads of serial numbers to see what might have been happening when. It looks to me as though the serial number 600000 was reached not later than 1929, as there are a few guns known with 60xxxx numbers that shipped in that year. At least one 60xxxx gun is known to have shipped in 1934, so it is certainly possible that many guns languished in inventory before leaving the security of the S&W vault. I believe the 610xxx and 611xxx guns are best interpreted as originating in 1930 regardless of when they may have been shipped.

The 587xxx gun you mention might have been manufactured as early as 1928 based on other known serial numbers. That is consistent with the observed non-medallion service stocks, as that was the style in the 1920s.

I think the info on page 21 of SCSW is not wrong in any major way; it just doesn't recognize the uncommon large-medallion variant of the K-frame service stocks at the beginning of the silver medallion period. If we can use this thread to tease out a number of serial numbers for these large-medallion stocks, we may be able to offer a reliable amendment to what is reported in SCSW.

I wish I could see a picture of the stocks on 596xxx in order to confirm that they are large-medallion stocks. I do not suspect an error in description, but I would like to exclude the possibility that one might have been made. Pictures of later guns reported to carry large-medallion stocks would also be nice to have.

__________________
David Wilson

On an off chance, I looked at a few of my remaining Old Town Station Dispatch catalogs and there it was. Catalog #53, page 55 has the revolver. It has some factory rework in 1946 and maybe the stocks are not original, but here is a scanned image.

Attached Images

S&W.jpg (103.9 KB, 194 views)

I hope I am not opening a giant can of worms if I observe that those look like small medallions to me. There is just too big a ring of wood around them for me to accept them as large medallions. Compare the relative diameters of these medallions to the diameters we see on the stocks posted higher in this thread.

__________________
David Wilson

I would call them scarce but not rare, I've had three sets in my hand in the last year and have observed at least that many more on guns for sale on the net or in auction photos. They are very cool IMO and I've wanted to make up a set for quite some time. Making a set of Ks from a set of Ns can be done but is not a simple as sanding to fit. It would require in addition to fitting wood to metal that the top portion of the checkering border be recut along with checkering being recut in this same area, doing this work will expose clean fresh wood making the area stand out like a sore thumb, resulting in more work needing to be done to blend the new with the old. Not really worth it unless ya just got to have a set and do not mind ruining a set of Ns. The set pictured at the start of the thread are probably the nicest I've laid eyes on.

Keith

__________________
kbgrips.com

David, I thought that too. The large medallions jump out at you right away and almost look out of place or at least they do to me.

Chad

A poster earlier asked about 1928 and 1929 grips. Those were almost universally non-medallion grips. At one time I had an M&P target with a 598,000s serial and it came with what appeared to be original non-medallion adornment. I'm also going to guess the .32-20s were almost all produced in the late 1920s even if shipped into the 1940 range. I've never seen one I felt had original medallion grips. Yes, I own several. One came to me with later 1930s vintage wood, but it wasn't original to the gun.

I've owned a bunch of K22s, and looked at literally thousands of them. None came with non-medallion or large medallion grips. But then that fits well with the theory postulated here.

My guess is the large medallions just look unbalanced on the smaller models. There is a significant size difference in the wood right where the stock circle ends, with the N frame is at least 1/8" wider. While the K's don't look bad, the smaller medallion does look better to me. Could have been an influence on the factory. They made very nice looking guns back then.

__________________
Dick Burg

David,
I agree and have no doubt the subject stocks have small flat silvers.

Now, to open another can of worms, have any large silvers been observed on any pre war K Magnas? The era of the large silvers in K frame stocks dates c. 5 yrs earlier than Magnas but you know S&W......

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

I agree, the checkering modification for the proper proportion of the checkered field would be required to look right. But if not done, the novice would not be able to tell if just fitted to the K grip frame. To a non-novice, yes it would be detected but then the extra bulk of the N frame stocks is already a dead giveaway.

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

It is very hard to read the numbers, they are pencil and look they they may be 61545(?) or 61575(?) or in other words in the 615,000 range ?

Hello Gripper, judging by your handle, I think you may be able to help me. Where would I start to look to find a set of N frame stocks for a 2nd model 44 Hand Ejector Target? Ser.# is 319** so it dates to 1929. I am thinking either the plain or medallion round tops would be proper for that period. I would prefer the plain, but I will very happy to get either. Thanks OD.

Yes, Non medallion grips for your gun. Check ebay, GunBroker, and last but not least, post your wants and needs in the "wanted"section of the forum. Good luck!!!

Thank you. The quest begins...OD

Couple of different theories here about why these stocks are so uncommon. I know somewhere between diddly and squat about the minutia of S&W stocks, but David's theory is what came to my mind as a possible reason (before I had seen his post) when I saw the first pictures posted above of the large vs small medallion K-frame stocks. Does anyone have a picture comparing the large medallion K and N frame versions?

Just shot a couple of photos just for you

N's on the Left and K's on the Right:



N's on the outside and K's on the inside:



My $0.02 - all of the Large Medallion K's (LMK's) I have seen mounted to guns, were on M&P's in the 610XXX to 611XXX range. Makes me believe that they were the earliest SILVER medallioned K stocks and that they were placed on less than 1500 guns. I think that the difference in the amount of wood surrounding the LMK's and LMN's is insignificant. Therefore, I think that it was an appearance decision made by some aesthetic "expert" (most likely with the last name "Wesson"). I however for one, really like the appearance of the large medallions in the K stocks - but maybe that is because they are relatively unique...

This has been a fun discussion.

__________________
Richard
Engraved S&W fan

Richard,
Great comparison photos that answer a question I've always wondered:
Since the large medallions are the same diameter and the arc cutout .745" in the grip frame are the same in both K and N frames, why is there a larger wood margin above the medallions on N frames?

From your photos it appears that the N frame stocks have the medallion mounted slightly lower than centered in the arc.

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

I have a beautiful set that came from S N 61073X. Just have the grips and no idea of what they were shipped on, but they are really nice. Maybe some day I'll find the gun!

I was wondering about these grips when I came across this thread. Here's a picture of my model 1905 4th M&P #6103xx range.

Attached Images

Picture 010.jpg (144.5 KB, 179 views)

I read this thread when it first appeared and the 'bells' failed to go off. Re-read it today when it popped back up and thought maybe I should take a look at my assemblage of M&P's to see if I have anything in the 611xxx range. Sure enough - I have M&P, Model 1905, 4th Change S/N 611490

So I scroll over to my computer's gun inventory to take a look at the pictures and, there they are, large medallion grips. Run upstairs to my gun room and pull the grips (probably did this before but failed to note it in my electronic file) and they number to the gun

I have not lettered the gun nor asked Roy for a ship date. I purchased it off GB for $385 from Vermont where I was born and lived till age 34. Double Karma. Not the best picture quality!

Attached Images

	pix718463648.jpg (78.5 KB, 133 views)
	pix766632041.jpg (84.1 KB, 111 views)
	Gun hand1.jpg (98.0 KB, 124 views)
	Gun serial#.jpg (84.6 KB, 88 views)

__________________
Dennis
SWCA #2409, SWHF #353

Yup, large medallion.



And Dennis, you have just officially used up your luck issuance for the year. Nice gun! Great price!

I like Vermont, where some early Wilson ancestors who tolerate cold better than I do spent a few generations a couple of centuries back.

__________________
David Wilson

About 18 months ago found the K frame in the upper right on GB -serial 610953. It's lettered to August of 1932 and was shipped with "walnut silver medallion square butt grips". The grips are not numbered but fit so well and are in comparable condition to the revolver, I believe they are original. Shipped to Bluefield Hardware in Blue Field, WV. Though the picture is poor, its in very nice condition.

[/URL]

The other "nickles" are a 22/32 and 2 ladysmiths

Beautiful gun and large medallion stocks. Check the back of the stocks under bright light for hard to read pencil notations. The first digits should be 610 or 611.

Can you check the first digit of the serial number again? A gun with a number beginning with 8 would be a wartime contract gun that shipped in 1940 or 1941. I bet it is a 6, in which case those might be the original stocks.

I love that Target Ladysmith. There just aren't many of those, and the ones that exist usually don't look that nice. I have one that needs a little work. But even after I get it fully tuned up, it won't look anywhere near as good as that one.

__________________
David Wilson

Thank you! Yes the first digit is a 6 not an 8. I've looked but the wood is dark and I do not see any writing on the R grip...

Rick

I have a large medallion S &W 38 special with a SN of 610033, Pencil markings on handles match the butt plate. However,it also has a stamped hammer with Reg. US Pat. Off....Mike wrote:
"the patent markings on the hammer (and the trigger) refer to the case color hardening technique used on S&W revolvers. It was a fairly short-lived practice to mark those parts in this way and was discontinued shortly after it began."

Wondering if there is any correlation with the large medallion and the stamped hammer? Does anyone else have a stamped hammer with their large medallion 1905 m & P?

Attached Images

hammer.jpg (132.9 KB, 63 views)

I can't at this moment recall the actual beginning and ending dates, but the era of patent registration stamps on hammers lasted for several years. You see them on most revolvers produced in the 1930s.

__________________
David Wilson

What kind of estimated value would having these large medallion's add to the gun? Esp if serial numbers inside handles match the gun?

Or how much do these handles sell for by themselves?

I know little of such subtleties, but are the large silver medallions the same size of the older gold ones?

I'm thinking that S&W may have found some remaining K-frame stocks originally made for the gold medallions but which had never been completed with the medallion installed. Could have been due to the pressure of tooling up for WW I, etc.

If they realized that the large silver medallions would fit, they'd use them and avoid wasting those grips. Or, maybe they had extra large ones from a time when fewer N-frame guns were being sold and needed K-frame grips when small medallions weren't in stock. They'd use available resources.

Is this totally unlikely? Just a thought from an admitted non-collector...