S&W 38 Special 4 digit serial?

[Rob01]

I am trying to purchase this handgun from a family member and don't have a lot of info on it. I am uploading a photo to get some help identifying it. All I know is its a 38 S&W special, serial number is 2571.

[P&R Fan]

Welcome to the Forum.
You have a Military and Police 1st Model. It was made very early in production, probably either 1899 or 1900.
I would have it checked by a gunsmith before you shoot it, and then only with light loads.
Jim

[Rob01]

So is this a model 10?

[Rob01]

The finish is not the best, but do you have an approx. value?

[P&R Fan]

Revolvers did not get model numbers until 1957. The Military and Police then became the Model 10.
Not sure of a value.
Jim

[DCWilson]

Originally Posted by Rob01

So is this a model 10?

No, though it can be considered an early precursor or ancestor of the Model 10. The term "Model 10" did not come into existence until late in 1957; it was applied to the current model of the .38 Military & Police, which had been introduced in 1948. There are many engineering and design changes in the half century that separates your revolver from the M&P introduced in that year.

Value is often a hard call for some older S&Ws. I would think that the gun I see in the photo has collector interest that would keep its value above $400 for just about anyone and possibly $500 to some. How much higher it might go depends on operational condition and whether there is any serious rust or pitting in the bore and chambers or under the hard rubber stocks. The gun does not look refinished to me, but if it has been refinished its value to collectors is undercut.

[Wiregrassguy]

Also, keep in mind that the Model 1899 uses an action that differs considerably from later M&Ps. If something breaks...like a trigger return spring...it will have to be custom made by a machinist.

[JP@AK]

Moreover, the purists will tell you that the Model of 1899 is a .38 Military Model. The "Police" part of the name was not adopted until later. The equivalent gun chambered for the .32-20 was called the Winchester Model.

[DWalt]

The S&W First Model, AKA .38 Hand Ejector, Model of 1899, can always be visually distinguished from the later K-frame revolvers as there is no locking lug on the barrel directly ahead of the extractor rod. First Models are often missing the knob at the end of the extractor rod, and they are difficult to find and expensive to replace, so see that yours does not get lost. If in any reasonable condition and without any mechanical problems, a minimum $500 value is not at all excessive. These are historic revolvers, the very first of the long-running line of K-frame S&Ws, and made by the millions. It almost certainly shipped from the factory in 1900. If it is in operable condition, it could be fired, but I would recommend against it. As earlier stated, any broken parts are almost impossible to replace without having them custom-made. And that is expensive.

[Rob01]

Thank you so much for all the help fellas! Looking forward to holding this piece of history.

[JSR III]

Also interesting to note that it has what looks like a modern thumblatch however, this style predates the several styles of flat latch that many collectors go gaga over.....

[jsfricks]

Originally Posted by JP@AK

Moreover, the purists will tell you that the Model of 1899 is a .38 Military Model. The "Police" part of the name was not adopted until later. The equivalent gun chambered for the .32-20 was called the Winchester Model.

Jack, I'm alittle confused by this. How much later was the Police name adopted? Here's a link to a completed auction for a 1899 in its original box and the label says S&W Military & Police.
Smith Wesson 1899 M&P Orig Box History NO RESERVE : Revolvers at GunBroker.com

[DCWilson]

After years of study I have concluded that the catalog and marketing division of S&W never talked to the box label writers, and neither of those groups ever talked to the production supervisors to learn what the models were called in the rooms where people had to shout to be heard over the machinery. That's why you sometimes find a new inconsistent rubber stamp name inside or on the label of a box that already had a name on it that had also never been nor would ever be encountered in the promotional literature.

Basically, everybody is always right, though of course there is a corresponding sense in which everybody is also always wrong. I'm glad to have had the opportunity to help clear this up.

[DWalt]

By their advertising, sometime just prior to WWI was when the "Military" changed to "Military and Police." I don't know the exact date, perhaps 1914-15.

[highpower3006]

Originally Posted by JSR III

Also interesting to note that it has what looks like a modern thumblatch however, this style predates the several styles of flat latch that many collectors go gaga over.....

That was one of the first things I noticed on my 1899, the latch is exactly the same as that on the late models.


Wasn't the flat latch only on the short barreled I and early J frames?

[JP@AK]

Originally Posted by highpower3006

That was one of the first things I noticed on my 1899, the latch is exactly the same as that on the late models.

It depends on what you mean by "late models." The latch remained pretty much the same until after WWII. Then several subtle changes began to take place.
If you look down or up at the edges of the latch on your gun, you will see that the edges of the thumb piece are beveled toward the frame with the outer edges flared out. In about 1947, this went away and the thumb piece became flat on the top and bottom edges. This is one of the features that I'm tracking on the S prefix M&P revolvers because it was during that period that the change took place.
After that the "pinch" between the screw hole and the thumb piece began to disappear, so that by the 1950s there is no pinch at all. I'll post some photos to show these changes.
I think Hondo44 may have some pictures in one of his albums that show the gradual disappearance of the "figure 8" pinch.

Beveled edge:


Flat edge:


No figure 8:

Wasn't the flat latch only on the short barreled I and early J frames?

Actually, no. The postwar I and J frame guns did have flat latches until about 1966 - and not just on the short barrels (the .22/32 Target also had it). One exception is the very earliest Baby Chief, which had the "standard" thumb piece. But there was at least one K frame which had a flat latch and that was the postwar .38 Military & Police Airweight, which became the Model 12.
And, BTW, there were three variations of the flat latch.

[Hondo44]

Originally Posted by highpower3006

That was one of the first things I noticed on my 1899, the latch is exactly the same as that on the late models.

When the modern 'Classics Series' was introduced, an exact copy of the pre war and very early post war style was introduced on them but is an MIM cast part.

Shown here retrofitted to my earlier Model 30-1: