44HE First Model - Unknown Caliber

HoundDog316 · #1 12-30-2012, 10:49 PM

Can anyone help me determine the caliber of my 44HE 1st model? There are few markings, just the 2-line patent on the top of the barrel, and the S&W trademark on the right side of the frame. Looks like the S/N is in 2 places, Cylinder & frame inside cylinder, and is 97xx. Also marked on cylinder looks like 2 crossed swords. The revolver has a lanyard ring.Two other markings, one with G Y and some lines also on the right side of the frame, the other is small & I can barely make it out, but it appears to be an up-arrow, a crown, U4, and E stacked. Not sure that any of this helps the caliber determination, but just in case. I'm 99% sure it's a 44 S&W Special, but I need to be 100% before I shoot it.

This is my first post, and I just joined this forum due to numerous hits when searching for S&W info. After reading a few threads, I learned much and discovered facinating information. I can't believe I didn't find this earlier. Not quite sure yet how to attach pictures, but will give it a try soon.

Muley Gil · #2 12-30-2012, 11:00 PM

Welcome to the Forum.

The caliber should be stamped on the side of the barrel. These revolvers only came in a few calibers-.44 Russian and Special, .44-40, .455, .45 Colt, and conversions to .45 ACP/AutoRim.

Can you post pictures? A 1st Model .44 would have a barrel shroud that protects the ejector rod.

Lee Barner · #3 12-30-2012, 11:06 PM

hounddog, welcome to the forum. the U4 over E means the revolver was inspected at the Royal Small Arms Factory at Enfield, England. the broad arrow is a government ownership mark. the crown is his majesty's crown. could the crossed swords be crossed pennants with split tails? these marks are also observed on colt 1911s. lee

handejector · #4 12-30-2012, 11:07 PM

Almost certain it is a .455 made for Britain. It may/may not be altered to accept 45 ACP or 45 Colt.
Pics of the back of cyl and angled into the chambers would help.

HoundDog316 · #5 12-30-2012, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lee Barner

hounddog, welcome to the forum. the U4 over E means the revolver was inspected at the Royal Small Arms Factory at Enfield, England. the broad arrow is a government ownership mark. the crown is his majesty's crown. could the crossed swords be crossed pennants with split tails? these marks are also observed on colt 1911s. lee

They do look like crossed pennants--my eyes aren't as good as they used to be, even with jewelers lenses to help. I'll try some pictures as soon as I can get the camera & lighting set up. be back in a few...

HoundDog316 · #6 12-31-2012, 12:38 AM

OK, pictures attached in .PDF file. Had to keep the size down but still be able to see the detail.

No markings on either side of barrel, where every other S&W I own has the caliber marked. Also, there is one other number on the frame inside the cylinder hinge, and again on the hinge itself. 1881, see last picture. This is different than what I think is the S/N which is printed on the cylinder & the ejector housing attached to the barrel (two places as well). Any chance this went to England & has parts from 2 different guns? Not a big concern as this gun has limited collector value due to condition--probably less than $500 I would guess. But I like it, and want to shoot it--just need to pin down the caliber. Thanks to all who have contribued!

handejector · #7 12-31-2012, 12:52 AM

It is a Brit 455.
The serial number should also be on the butt beside the swivel.
1881 is just an assembly number to keep that yoke(hinge) with that frame.

It appears to have been rather brutally reamed for 45 Colt. They did not leave a shoulder in the chambers.

I would assume they have also filed on the recoil shield to allow room for 45 Colt rims.

opoefc · #8 12-31-2012, 02:04 AM

Lee is correct. It's a 1st Model 44 New Century ( Triple Lock), originally in caliber .455, that went to Great britain in WW1 and accumulated the various stampings the Brits love to apply. Many of these were not caliber stamped on the barrels. Unfortunately this gun has had the "Bubba" conversion to .45 Colt. Ed.

HoundDog316 · #9 12-31-2012, 02:24 AM

I think you're right--.455 Webley Seems most likely. And thanks for the info on the assembly numbers--that makes sense, but was new to me. Also, looked again--no numbers on the butt, just the swivel.

While I am loath to try sticking cartridges in a gun to "guess" it's caliber, I did check a few to see if it was bored out, and I don't think it was. Probably hard to see from the pictures, but the shoulder in the cylinder holes remains. Also, all of my 45 ammo slides in part way, indicating a .45 hole, but stops short of dropping all the way in. Same with Schofield, although it came a little closer. .44 drops in all the way, but is loose, so not .44 cal. However, the .44 won't allow the cylinder to close. Also, doesn't appear that the recoil shield has been modified in any way, so perhaps just a run-of-the-mill .455 brit.

Thanks again, will do a little more checking just to be sure (I have a great local gunsmith) and go from there. All the info has been extremely helpful!

delta-419 · #10 12-31-2012, 12:41 PM

When you decide what caliber it is and take it to the range give us a range report. I love those old triplelocks! Have fun! and Happy New Year.

DCWilson · #11 12-31-2012, 01:10 PM

When Lee and Ed both talk about a .45 Colt conversion, I'm almost afraid to open my mouth. But those chambers look to me to be grimy in front of a cleaner short-case zone, and I think that gun may still be in its original .455 chambering. The back of the cylinder was not planed because the serial number is still there. I looked closely at the photos in which you can see or deduce headspace, and it doesn't look to me as though anything was removed from the recoil shield to open up rim depth for .45 Colt cartridges.

If that were mine, I'd get some decent cleaner like Kroil or CorroxionX and go over the surface with some superfine bronze wool, toothbrush and soft cloth to get the trace rust out of the low spots. I would probably also give it a teardown cleaning, but if you are not up to that you should at least go through the barrel and chambers with a bore brush and swab to get out the grime that I think must be there. The gun is a little neglected, but I think it is worth a lot more than just $500.

If additional cleaning and investigation make it clear that this gun has been modified to take a different round, I am certainly willing to eat crow. But based on these photos I just don't see the evidence. Actually I think the gun looks pretty good under the nicks, scratches and trace rust.

I have a couple of .455s that were converted to .45 Colt, one a TL and the other a second model. They are both great shooters, and I don't think the less of them for their modifications, which occurred at a time when guns were personal tools that were often modified to fit their owners' wishes. If I am wrong and this gun turns out to be modified, you will still have a great entertainer on your hands.

HoundDog316 · #12 12-31-2012, 01:32 PM

Thanks--and Happy New Year to all as well. I'm definitely itching to get this to the range. Looks like the .455 ammo is backorder-able, but won't deliver until Mid February. Either way, I'll be sure to give a good report! I have another HE I'm going to take out & shoot as soon as the ammo comes. It's a 32-20 Model of 1905, 4th Change in excellent shape. The Black Hills loads I have on order show 115 grains @ 800fps, so should be just the ticket. That ammo should arrive sometime mid January...

I do have one correction to make--I was looking at a very similar gun posted by gunfish back in March of 2012, it turns out he has a gun very similar to mine, including markings, that does have a British stamp of the caliber .455. Very close S/N’s as well. He showed a picture of the butt of his gun, and his lanyard ring is missing, but it shows his S/N is stamped there, with a hole for the ring right through it. I then had to take another look at mine, and sure enough I can see a bit of one number on one side of the ring, and a bit of another number on the other side. They punched the hole for my lanyard ring right through the S/N as well. So handejector, you were right once again!

Incredible information available here!!!

handejector · #13 12-31-2012, 01:53 PM

I could well be WRONG on the reaming as David says. It was late for my old eyes when I looked.

Your serial number is listed in N&J as one of the 44s that were converted to 455. That explains why the serial number is drilled through- the frame was already numbered. It may have already been a finished gun in 44 Spec.
If you pull the grips, the full serial number will likely be stamped on the left side under the grip.

IF that gun is not reamed, it is easily worth $1500 or more.

Be VERY cautious using even bronze wool on that high luster blue. Even bronze can put micro scratches on it.

I have altered my cleaning method to start with a good bath in Ed's Red. I find it really dissolves lots of gunk and varnish I used to think was corrosion. That saves scrubbing and scratching. Sometimes, I now simply leave tiny freckles, making sure they are soaked well and therefore not progressing. I have seen a gun look worse after removing every freckle than it did with them.

HoundDog316 · #14 12-31-2012, 01:56 PM

In response to DCWilson, I must admit that the gun is dirty. I will hit it today with some Kroil & post some additional pictures. I'm trying to get to some of my old guns in my collection & clean them up--it has been a few years since I touched them, and then only applied oil to keep back the rust. Since I have a little time off over the Holidays, I was trying to make a dent in my collection. My 33-20 is all cleaned & ready to go, as well as a few others, but this one stopped me due to the lack of a caliber marking. Hence I joined this forum & started this post--with a tremendous amount of information gained for my efforts!

I'll be sure to post a picture of the inside recoil shield, which I didn't do earlier. However, I'm curious about the potential value--I have a number of fairly recent gun value books, and none of them show a value much higher than $375 for the .455 caliber. Same condition in .44 S&W Special, which is the most common, would be closer to $500. Now I know these books can only 'guess" since there is no real standard, and a used gun value usually depends on what a seller & buyer agree upon. But barring something out of the ordinary, have values for old S&W's gone up dramatically in the past 5 years? If so, perhaps I need a new Blue Book...

While I am aware of the values in general, for the most part I just want to take care & enjoy my collection, which means shooting the ones in proper condition from time to time. It seems to take me back to a simpler time, but it also amazes me at the engineering marvels of a century or more ago. Be back soon with more pictures, I've got some cleaning to do...

handejector · #15 12-31-2012, 02:09 PM

I'll buy every S&W you have at the values in your book.

It is VERY important to know how to PROPERLY use the Blue Book for values on S&W, so I'm going to share it with you-
Tear all the pages pertaining to S&W out of The Blue Book. Get some good oak and kindling, and use the pages to start the fire. If you don't need that much paper, be sure to burn them all anyway so that you won't be guilty of accidentally leading someone astray. Once all pages pertaining to S&W are removed from a Blue Book, it is WAY closer to being correct!

Sorry, but I've been looking at them for 30+ years, and the S&W section has always been way off- either high or low. I buy one about every ten years to look up guns I know little/nothing about, and for the serial number tables.
When I look a gun up, I look at the values, and say to myself- "OK, I wonder how close that really is?" and start looking elsewhere- gun shows, the net for completed sales and/or asking prices from 'sane' dealers, and people I KNOW.

HoundDog316 · #16 12-31-2012, 04:01 PM

Well, tried a new approach to attaching picture files--I'm sure there's a better way, but this should work for now. Did my best to clean things up without a good soak, and I think it came out pretty well. The bore is mint--I'm a little surprised, but couldn't get a picture. Will try that craft again sometime--I'm learning as much about photography, lighting, and uploading as I am about guns!

Anyway, I think you can clearly see the shoulder in the cylinder holes. And although there are tooling marks on the recoil shield, they appear to be factory. I'm no expert, so if anyone sees something else, please let me know. I really appreciate all the information!

As for value, I guess I never really paid THAT close attention, since I don't have any plan to sell anything. Mostly a curiosity and a benchmark against what I paid. And I can attest that the values vary widely among different publications of the same year, so I think "guess" was an appropriate description. I think I'll round up some matches--it's rather chilly here today anyway!

Texas Star · #17 12-31-2012, 04:28 PM

I have heard that many of the .455's were not caliber marked, but those I've seen were.

Is the .455 ammo you're ordering from Fiocchi or from Hornady? Your gun should also accept .455 MK I, sometimes sold as .455 Colt. But I don't think it's been loaded in years. Dominion (CIL) in Canada may have been the last producer. Current .455 ammo is probably all loaded in the shorter MK II cases.

Do yourself a MAJOR favor and stalk a copy of Geoffrey Boothroyd's, "The Handgun." I think Amazon sometimes has copies. It was from Crown Publishing, about 1970. It will tell you about your gun and a LOT of others, better than any other single book I know. You will thank me for this, once you get a copy. People who haven't seen this book are usually amazed at the wealth of information and the excellent photos.

lowhog · #18 12-31-2012, 04:58 PM

The only thing I can figure your looking at the 455 2nd model values.You sure can't be looking at the 1st model 455 values in your books.

DCWilson · #19 12-31-2012, 05:06 PM

The new pics of the recoil shield and clean chambers reinforce my belief that this gun has not been modified. It still retains its original chambering in .455 Mk II.

Nice!

tops · #20 12-31-2012, 05:13 PM

I was told years ago that the book doesn't buy or sell so it doesn't matter what it states about price. Larry

Buford57 · #21 12-31-2012, 05:47 PM

Re: caliber markings A .455 HE 2nd I sold recently had no original caliber markings, but was marked after its cylinder shaving as "45 A.P.". It had at minimum 4 times the British markings the OPs revolver shows, but S&W had definitely left it innocent of any indication of chambering.

Texas Star · #22 12-31-2012, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buford57

Re: caliber markings A .455 HE 2nd I sold recently had no original caliber markings, but was marked after its cylinder shaving as "45 A.P.". It had at minimum 4 times the British markings the OPs revolver shows, but S&W had definitely left it innocent of any indication of chambering.

Might that have been .45 AR, for Auto Rim? The R may have been poorly stamped.

Hondo44 · #23 12-31-2012, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoundDog316

As for value, I guess I never really paid THAT close attention, since I don't have any plan to sell anything. Mostly a curiosity and a benchmark against what I paid. And I can attest that the values vary widely among different publications of the same year, so I think "guess" was an appropriate description. I think I'll round up some matches--it's rather chilly here today anyway!

HoundDog,
Congratulations on a very sweet gun. And also for the photos which have improved to near perfect.

The value confusion can stem from confusion of your gun with the other 455s in the many publications:
1. The 44 Hand Ejector Ist Model or New Century Triple locks in 44 Spl re-made into 455s.
2. The "455 Mark II HE 1st Model" " (also built on the triple lock frame)
3. The "455 Mark II HE 2nd Model" (not triple locks)

As you correctly stated, yours is the 1st above. As Lee indicated these were 44 Special guns, either partially completed or completed and in inventory, that the factory changed at the factory to the 455 chambering before ever having been sold. It's recorded that there were only 808; 666 for the Brits and the rest for commercial sales.

I'm not defending the Blue Book because I agree with Lee. But just to show the disparity in published values, last year's edition shows your gun valued in the other direction as high as $4650. It lumps the 455s together with truly very rare calibers like the 38-40, 44-40 and 44 Russian. And most other publications I've seen are confused worse than that.

Sorry if this redundant.

HoundDog316 · #24 12-31-2012, 11:34 PM

$4650?? OK, now I actually might sell it!

I've seen the 666 number before, as well as 525 from the first edition of N&J, probably due to limited records access in 1966. I've just ordered the latest edition (1996 I think) of N&J, as well as Geoffrey Boothroyd's, "The Handgun", thanks to Texas Star. (Amazon had a copy for $2.99 + $3.99 shipping, but the condition was suspect--I got one for $12.00. Thanks for the tip!)

If a number of these were 'bored out' to another caliber, one wonders how many original are left. I'm having second thoughts about shooting it... But if I do, the Fiocchi Ammo Mk II 265 grain at 655 fps is what I'm planning to use.

Also, just to close the loop, the S/N is stamped on the left side of the grip frame, and is also penciled on the inside of the right grip. Further confirmation it is likely one of the 666.

On another note, I mentioned that I have a HE in 32-20 that I estimated (by the same BAD book method) its value at around $750, so wasn't concerned about shooting it. However, second thoughts there, too. It is the finest piece in my collection, and a target model to boot. I've included a few pictures. I'd be real interested in what the REAL value might be.

Thanks again to all who contributed & provide tips--it was all very helpful, and is greatly appreciated. Happy New Year!

Muley Gil · #25 12-31-2012, 11:48 PM

That is one PURTY .32-20!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Buford57 · #26 12-31-2012, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Texas Star

Might that have been .45 AR, for Auto Rim? The R may have been poorly stamped.

My understanding is it was a Britishism: ".45 A(utomatic) P(istol)". They just left out the 'Colt' in ACP.

My point was that there was no evidence of a factory caliber marking, as on the OPs Triple Lock.

handejector · #27 01-01-2013, 12:03 AM

Good for you on the TL!
I'm glad it turned out to be all original. They are neat old guns.

That 32-20 is stunning. Somewhere in the 60,000s??
If as good as I think it is, it could go $2000-2500.

Where you been hidin' all these years?

DCWilson · #28 01-01-2013, 12:54 AM

That may be the prettiest .32-20 target model I have ever seen, and I have seen pictures of some nice ones. The features I see in your photos (or in some cases, don't see) suggest manufacture around 1919.

What a beauty!

HoundDog316 · #29 01-01-2013, 01:14 AM

HMMMmmm... That's a pretty good value. I still like the idea of occasionally shooting guns in safe condition, but now will have to think about it for a while. In the meantime, no issue for me to take out my Model 1917, as soon as I find some half-moon clips. One of the previous owners also owned a file, and expressed a dislike for factory sights...

Hopefully I can start spending some time here--never one to be on facebook or tweet, etc. Time always an issue, seem to be working my years away. But also never thought something like this existed, the internet being what it is. I know a few folks who are SWCA members, but never joined them either--that is about to change. So many of you who have posted are members, so it must be a good org!

I have a few more questions, none as pressing to me as the caliber determination, but may be of interest to the forum members. So, I'll definitely be back! Thanks again.

HoundDog316 · #30 01-01-2013, 01:28 AM

A bit more on the 32-20. Probably not visible in the pictures, but just a bit of blueing rubbed on either side of the end of the barrel, but that's it. All original, matching numbers, perfect bore, etc. I just wish some of my other pieces were half as pristine--I think I could retire!

The S/N puts it 1918-1919, just prior to the heat treating of the cylinders. 79xxx if I remember correctly. So David, that's a pretty good eye! The credibility and accuracy of the information here is really exceptional.

Hondo44 · #31 01-01-2013, 03:03 AM

Well you have two very fine pieces! The TL is no doubt one of the 666, as someone said above, it's serial # is on the list.

Do you have the Standard catalog of Smith and Wesson, by Supica and Nehas? If not, that's the next one to get!

happy New Year!

Texas Star · #32 01-01-2013, 04:56 AM

Hound Dog-

I am pleased to learn that you ordered the book by Boothroyd. I think it will be the best $12 that you ever spent for a book. Please let me know if you find it informative. The author is the man on whom Ian Fleming based his "Maj. Boothroyd" character in the novel, "Dr. No."

I think he was little known in the USA and the book somehow never was picked up on by gun fanciers, and sells for far less than classic books by the better known US gun writers. But its wide historical scope and the solid information it contains eclipse most works of its kind.

BTW, welcome to the board.

kcub · #33 01-01-2013, 06:39 AM

Std Catalog indicates crossed pennants are Canadian.

HoundDog316 · #34 01-01-2013, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hondo44

Well you have two very fine pieces! The TL is no doubt one of the 666, as someone said above, it's serial # is on the list.

Do you have the Standard catalog of Smith and Wesson, by Supica and Nehas? If not, that's the next one to get!

happy New Year!

Shame on me for not being complete, and thank you for keeping me honest. My Amazon order was for 3 books, and included the S&N for $28.xx (new), the 1996 version of N&J for $40 (used-very good), and the book by Boothroyd. First one is to arrive by 4 Jan 13!

Also, handejector recommended Ed's Red as a good solvent, and right now Brownells has it on sale for half price. I ordered a case. I'm an old Hoppe's #9 man, but lately have been less than impressed by it's performance. Seems like I do all the scrub work. Got some Kroil a few months back, and like it much better, but a little pricey for a complete soak. Will give Ed's a try, and let you all know how it does. Thanks again for all the great info & tips!