Legit Victory Snub?

[FG211]

Thanks in advance for any help on this. This is the bedside pistol of my late grandfather. He was an Air Force Ordnance officer in the pacific, mostly post-war, and part of the occupying forces in post war Japan. I have no idea where this particular revolver was acquired but it appears to have enthusiastic, if poorly rendered, "engraving" covering most of the frame. I know the grips are much later and the lanyard loop is missing, what I don't know is does it appear to be a factory Victory snub? Any information is appreciated. Thanks again - Matt

[JP@AK]

Very difficult to see with those tiny pictures, but the hammer doesn't look right to me. Of course, the stocks are clearly not correct.

Can you post better photos?

[JP@AK]

Ooops! Sorry!

Welcome to the Forum.

[Hondo44]

Welcome to the forum.

You'll have give us the serial number and letter on the butt, photo won't zoom in enough to read it. And any stampings on the left side of grip frame.

The stocks look correct, early post war with pre war sharp cornered borders on the checkering field. But don't guess, check the # on the back of the right panel to verify if they match the gun butt.

Does the serial # under the barrel match the gun?

[JP@AK]

Originally Posted by Hondo44

The stocks look correct, early post war with pre war sharp cornered borders on the checkering field.

Okay, Jim. I'm confused. I agree they appear to be early postwar stocks. But if this is a Victory, why would it have postwar Magna stocks? This style didn't show up until 1946.

Take a look at this picture. The top gun has the prewar checkering pattern. The bottom stocks are early postwar. The style on the OP's gun look like the bottom pair - top peak of the checkered area isn't as high and the checkering has the postwar heavy border.


But I will grant that the OP's pics are small and my eyes are not what they used to be. So perhaps I am wrong.

[Hondo44]

Honestly, I don't know anything for sure about this gun except that it does have a 2" barrel. So I could be completely wrong.

[FG211]

Sorry about the small pics, something about cell phones and photobucket. I'll work on getting bigger pics posted tomorrow. S/N on butt is V180306, matching S/N on underside of barrel. Inside yoke (??) is "W" over 27545. Thanks!

[Absalom]

Well, despite the tiny pictures it is obvious the barrel is a legitimate 2", not cut down, and if the barrel serial matches the butt, your basic question can be answered: you do indeed appear to have a legitimate short-barreled Victory. As has been discussed above, any kind of magna stocks are later replacements for the original smooth stocks.

I can't discern the "engraving" you mention, or the general finish. I have no idea what the effect of that on value would be.

[opoefc]

The yoke numbers are just work/assembly numbers used too keep parts together during fitting,finishing, etc. and have no relevance to anything after the gun left S&W. The "W" is a fitter/assembler/inspector's stamp. There were 300 2 inch barreled Victory Models made in 0ct. 1942, originally for the Dep't of Justice, all in the the serial range of V179,000 to V181,000. Many of the top straps are marked "United States Property" A factory letter would be needed to verify if this gun is one of the original 2 inch barreled guns made in this serial range. Ed.

[murphydog]

Welcome! Here is the link to ordering a history letter:

Smith & Wesson Historical Foundation - Letter Process - Insuring that the rich history of Smith & Wesson will continue for generations to come

My guess is (with the matched barrel number) that it will letter as an original 2".

[FG211]

Thanks for everyone's help and interest thus far. Here are more and larger pictures which give a better idea of the stocks, crude "engraving," and the absence of any "US PROPERTY" markings. From what I understand, they could have been defaced - Matt

[Absalom]

Aha, those pictures add much clarity.

The amateur decorator did indeed attack this gun's original condition rather enthusiastically. Besides the "engraving", which looks decidedly non-professional, the gun was reblued, and the hammer and trigger also received some treatment that resulted in a different appearance.

But the serial numbers do look legitimate. Victorys with 2" barrels are rare and, in original condition, in high demand by collectors. There are people on this forum more qualified than I who can better judge whether in its present condition it retains much value beyond its inherent importance to you as your grandfather's gun.

[DWalt]

It does show that the engraver comes from the "Pawn Shop" school of engraving, but is not as accomplished as many. And the grips are of the "PC" style, from no earlier than the mid-1950s. It does have some value simply because it is one of the relatively small number of Victory Snubbies made, but it wouldn't be very attractive to any serious collector in that condition. I couldn't estimate a value, but I'd guess not much more than that of an original postwar M&P snubby in average to good condition.

[Hondo44]

Well, here's what we see;

1. The serial # matches in the two places shown and it's within the proper range for a snubby Victory Model.

2. he date on the grip frame indicates it went back to S&W in 8/52. But it doesn't have the stamps very typically used in that era for indicating a refinish or parts replacements. Another indicator the 2" barrel is original to the gun. So we don't know why it went back.

3. You still haven't told us what's stamped on the back of the right grip, so perhaps there might be a clue there if it went back for new grips. They were introduced in 1952 and are therefore contemporary with the 8/52 return date.

4. The US Property stamp could very well have been removed from the top strap.

Absent more evidence or additional specific detail, that's the best I can do at this point.

5. The engraving is fairly novice, clearly not factory, and detracts substantially from it's collector value.

[DCWilson]

I agree that this might well have left the factory with an original two inch barrel, but a letter (link provided above) would be necessary to confirm that. The cylinder finish seems inconsistent with the rest of the revolver. Does the V180306 serial number appear on the rear face of the cylinder?

[tlay]

Someone ruined a Victory many of us would love to have with this engraving! It looks like someone did it with a ballpeen hammer and a chisel!!

[FG211]

Thanks everyone for the input so far. Here are some requested pictures of the inside of the R. grip panel and cylinder. The Cylinder S/N matches the grip and barrel.

Can anyone point me in the direction of how to get a realistic idea of the gun's value (sale to collector not insurance)? I understand the defacing of the finish has a large impact but I have no concept of how to quantify that without actually offering it for sale!

[DCWilson]

Thanks for the additional photos. Just to start a conversation, I would say that it might be worth a thousand dollars or a bit more to a few people who respect the rarity of two-inch Victory models regardless of what they look like now. My own sense is that a $2000 price is probably not achievable, and maybe not even $1500. For reference, bear in mind that these guns in like new and unmodified condition have sold for as much as $5000 to $7000. Some collectors feel that the overall market is a little soft at the moment, so if a pristine snubnose Victory showed up at a national auction, it might go for less than the high values I just mentioned.

Others here will have different ideas about the value of this one. In any event, you would need a letter to establish that the gun was originally shipped with a two-inch barrel. If the letter could identify a specific individual who received it, the price might go up because of the link to someone possibly well known. For example, there is a known Victory snub with a number about a thousand lower than yours that was delivered to Victor Wesson. So far as we know, all 300 of the original 1942 order were shipped to the military, with perhaps a few to the DOJ. I'm just going to leave that last statement as a generalization while acknowledging it may suggest possibilities that cannot be confirmed. There are threads about these interesting guns in the archives if you want to dig into the matter further.

I forget how many of these have turned up and have been validated over the years. Four or five dozen, maybe. Production was authorized for at least 800 (and possibly 1300) units. It's not clear to me if all of them were actually assembled and shipped. It's just a mysterious model.

[Absalom]

David's assessment is likely as educated as you will get. With a gun as unique as yours (both in the positive as an originally very rare model and in the negative as a gun much disfigured from a collector viewpoint), you may not be able to ascertain actual market value unless you actually put it out there on an auction site and see how high the bidding goes.

PS: There are ways to do this without actually committing you to selling the gun to the highest bidder, but these methods are somewhat unsavory and will make people hate you .

[Frank46]

When I was in Japan there were a bunch of folks that did engraving on trinkets sailors bought. I did have a cigarette lighter that was engraved at a most fair price. Since you mentioned that your grandfather was stationed in Japan after the war may I suggest he knew whom to take your revolver to and have the engraving done at which point the U.S.Property markings were removed. Just a suggestion. Frank

[DWalt]

As I said earlier, I am in no position to estimate a value, about like everyone else. It would be a rare collector who would want to pay more than a small fraction of the multi-thousand prices these have realized in the past, as all those were in good original condition. Refinished, with non-matching grips, missing swivel, and topped off by very amateurish "engraving" would cause value to plummet. Nonetheless, there may be a few out there who would want to buy a Victory snubby in any condition, and if two or more of those guys were in the same auction room, no telling where it could go. As above, this is one of those situations that the only way to accurately value it is to offer it up at an on-line or live auction.

[opoefc]

I've recently sold, and bought, better specimens that were lettered or verified 2 in. guns, in the $1200 - $1850 range. If this gun letters as a 2 in. shipped Victory, I would put it around $1000- $1200 tops retail. Ed.