I have pulled this information together from various sources. As I have been, in most cases, unable to get exact serial numbers, I have designated them as approximate. Please correct my information if you have better numbers or information than I have provided, as I make no representation that this information is authoritative or correct.
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Timeline of WWII S&W pre-Victory, Victory, and S-Victory S&W M&P Revolver Models

1940: The Pre-Victory Models – The S&W .38 Hand Ejector, (sometimes considered the Model of 1905, 4th Change) M&P revolvers as made beginning in 1940 for the British Commonwealth military in caliber .38 S&W are often called .38/200 revolvers, the "K-200," and sometimes the "BSR" (British Service Revolver) to distinguish them from S&W's commercial production revolvers chambered for the .38 S&W Special cartridge. The official designation used by the British military for this revolver was: "Pistol, Revolver, Smith & Wesson, No. 2". Military production began at serial number (approximately) 670000, or slightly greater, ending the year 1940 at serial number (approximately) 720000 or slightly higher. On February 19, 1940 an order for 21,347 .38/200 military revolvers was placed by the Union of South Africa. Production under this contract began on March 11, 1940, with shipments beginning in May 1940. It is possible that some of the earliest South African military contract revolvers had SNs as low as about SN 612000 (from Pate), using numbered frames in S&W's parts inventory which had been produced early in the 1930s. It has been stated that these early South African revolvers had 4" barrels, so this may be a means of identification. Many revolvers produced under the first South African order were diverted to England under the stress of wartime needs. British .38/200 revolver production was intermixed with S&W's commercial production of M&P revolvers in .38 S&W Special until October 1940 , at which time (in the high SN 690000 range) S&W's production capacity became devoted almost entirely to the production of British Commonwealth .38/200 revolvers, chambered for the caliber .38 S&W cartridge (British designation - .380 Revolver Mk 1 or Mk 2 cartridge) until late February 1941. Ultimately 590,309 (some sources state a slightly smaller number) .38/200 M&P revolvers were produced through March 1945. Most went to the British Commonwealth and allied nations, but some went to the OSS for distribution in enemy-occupied countries for use by partisans, etc. The standard metal finish applied to all revolvers during 1940 was the bright Carbonia high-polish blue, as used on civilian revolvers for many years prior to the war, along with checkered wooden stocks. S&W factory notes indicate that some use of the hot dip Black Magic oxide finish (a commercial metal finishing process) may have started as early as August 5, 1940, possibly on a test basis, but this is unsubstantiated.

1941 – On February 27, 1941, production of the M&P revolver chambered in caliber .38 S&W Special resumed for civilian sale at a SN in the (approximate) 730000-740000 range, in addition to continuation of .38/200 revolver military production for Great Britain. Serial numbers reached (approximately) 890000 at year-end 1941. M&P revolvers chambered in both .38 S&W and .38 S&W Special were serial numbered in the same series throughout WWII. Until December 4, 1941, all (or most) production continued to use S&W's high polish Carbonia "Bright Blue" finish, which was then changed to a brush-blued hot dip black oxide finish (Black Magic, a commercial metal finishing method) until March 4 or April 10, 1942 (date unclear), at (approximately) SN 940000, when sandblasting began prior to Black Magic finish application. The finish change was made to reduce the hand labor required, thereby increasing production rate. In the early part of this period some revolvers may have continued to receive the earlier commercial Carbonia bright blue finish. Most earlier military and also commercial M&P revolver production during 1940 and 1941 used 1930s civilian-style round top checkered diamond wooden stocks having small S&W silver medallions. The U. S. "Lend-Lease Act of 1941" required marking of the British revolvers by stamping "United States Property" on the topstrap. While the exact date and serial number when this started is unknown, it is certain that the stamping appeared on some pre-Victory revolvers shipped in late 1941 at a SN around 880000. Pate indicates only that property stamping was absent on some revolvers produced from 10/41 to 4/42.

1942: The Victory Models - Revolver production continued, reaching serial number 1000000 on April 24, 1942, whereupon the V-prefix (Victory) serialization was started at V1, reaching (approximately) V210000 at year-end 1942. Grip panels were changed sometime early in 1942 (in the low 900,000 SN range) from checkered wood with medallions to simpler smooth round top wooden stocks without medallions. A sandblasted Parkerized (phosphate) finish replaced the Black Magic oxide finish beginning in early May 1942 at serial number (approximately) 940000 to further speed up manufacture. Due to royalty payment issues, Parkerizing was soon replaced by a similar proprietary phosphate finish. The new S&W phosphate finish was phased in, completely replacing the earlier Black Magic blued finish by mid-August 1942. S&W factory letters refer this S&W phosphate finish as "Military Midnight Black." Whether this was an "official" name is unknown. It has been stated that the majority of all 1942 revolvers produced in the serial number range of V6 to V40000 will be found chambered in .38 S&W caliber, but without any doubt, some in this range were also produced in caliber .38 S&W Special. The first five 1942 Victory-series revolvers (V1 to V5) were made up in .38 S&W Special caliber as presentation pieces, having the earlier commercial Carbonia bright blued finish.

It has been stated that there were approximately 85,000 revolvers (both late pre-V series and V series) having factory U. S. Navy markings on the top strap, shipped from about April 1942 (starting at a SN of approximately 982000) through March 1943 against two Navy contracts and one Army contract. Thereafter, revolvers produced for the U. S. Navy, starting at (approximately) SN V267000, were obtained from S&W through U. S. Army-administered contracts and were no longer given factory U. S. Navy property markings. Some Navy revolvers are found having paint-filled U. S. Navy markings engraved on the left side of the frame under the hammer. Some revolvers with the engraved frame markings have been reported as having no topstrap Navy property stamping. Such frame engravings were not applied by S&W, and no authoritative information concerning their origin and purpose has been presented.

Beginning in late 1941, some significant revolver production throughout the war (which has been stated to be approximately 74,000 units) was directed toward essential U. S. civilian use (in caliber .38 S&W Special), intended for security guard use at defense plants, and for various civilian law enforcement agencies, civilian government agencies, etc., through the Defense Supplies Corporation (DSC) contracts (Note: DSC was a U. S. government agency established August 29, 1940, to finance and administer programs to stockpile strategic and critical war materials. DSC was dissolved on July 1, 1945). Except for the absence of any military-related property markings, such non-military use revolvers were identical in form and finish to contemporary military production. Additionally, some revolvers having no property markings were also shipped to the United States Maritime Commission (for Merchant Marine use), beginning in the high SN 900000 range (just prior to the early 1942 changeover to the Victory-series serial numbering), continuing until at least the V500000 range. The exact number is unknown. Unmarked M&P revolvers made for the OSS and a very few for the U. S. Coast Guard are also stated to be known.

1943 – Victory production reached serial number (approximately) V490000 by year-end 1943. Property marking of Navy-contract revolvers in caliber .38 S&W Special by the factory was discontinued about March 1943 at a serial number of (approximately) V267000. Navy revolvers with serial numbers above that will be marked the same as all other military Victory-model revolvers (UNITED STATES PROPERTY or U. S. PROPERTY), so it is not possible to identify late Navy revolvers, other than by obtaining a factory letter establishing where they were sent. However, it has been stated that most "U. S. Property" - stamped Victory models chambered in .38 Special were shipped to the U. S. Navy during the War, principally for use by Naval flight crews. While a precise serial number is unknown, the earlier "United States Property" topstrap stamping was replaced by the simpler "U. S. Property" probably at around SN V278000, in early 1943.

1944 – Victory production reached serial number (approximately) V740000 by year-end 1944, with few changes made in features and finish.

1945: The SV-series Victories – An improved hammer block drop safety design was developed and incorporated during the late 1944 to very early 1945 period, identified by changing the serial number V-prefix to an SV-prefix, beginning at a serial number stated to be SV769001 (this serial number is debatable, and may be lower). British .38/200 revolver shipment ceased on March 27, 1945, and it is believed that none of the SV-series revolvers in .38 S&W were shipped to the British, only V-series. Production of the SV-series revolvers in .38 Special caliber for U.S. military use continued, but "officially" ceased at serial number SV 811119 on August 27, 1945. However, higher SV-prefix serial numbers are known to exist, beyond SV 813000. At least one factory letter indicates that the SV series could have continued to approximately VS(sic)825000. Some late wartime production SV-series stamped revolver frames and components remaining in factory inventory at war's end were assembled and finished by S&W during late 1945, and sold by S&W through its normal distribution channels into the civilian market, apparently starting early in 1946. Those SV revolvers will usually have the lanyard loop hole plugged and will have a commercial blued finish and checkered diamond Magna-style wooden grip panels. There are a few such civilian SV-series revolvers said to have been factory nickel plated. The number of SV-series M&Ps with civilian features shipped is unknown, but may well represent the majority of those produced. Some earlier (pre-1945) V-series serial numbered revolvers were later converted to use the improved hammer blocking safety, and those will have "S" stampings on the upper sideplate limb and on the butt to indicate that such a conversion was performed. It is likely that only a relatively small number of such conversions were performed starting in mid-1945, as it was an expensive procedure. Furthermore, all Victory-related military revolver contracts were cancelled on V-J day, so any hammer safety conversions in progress at that date were terminated. Post-war M&P civilian revolver production is stated to have been "officially" resumed starting at serial number S 811120 (on 9/12/1945), with commercial blue finish and checkered wooden Magna service stocks. But there is some evidence to believe this starting serial number of the S-series is incorrect and may well be somewhat higher than S 811120. The details concerning transformation of serial numbers from the SV-series to the S-series during the immediate postwar period is incompletely defined and requires more research, as there are definitely serial number overlaps.

There is no method to determine if a specific M&P serial number is associated with the caliber or to where the revolvers were shipped by the factory, other than by obtaining a factory letter. The caliber (.38 S&W or .38 S&W Special) will be stamped into the right side of the barrel. Revolvers made for wartime U. S. service (for both civilian and military use) in caliber .38 S&W Special will most commonly have 4" barrels. Production for the British Commonwealth military in caliber .38 S&W will most commonly have 5" barrels, and as previously stated, the early South African revolvers may have 4" barrels. There are exceptions, as both shorter (2") and longer (6") factory barrel lengths are known. Victory-series revolvers chambered in .38 Special having 2" factory-original barrels are unusual and of very high collector interest. A few were made up early in the war for possible military use, the details of which are unknown, but most (an unknown number, but likely less than 500) were made up starting in 1944 for DSC distribution to essential civilian users. After 1941, revolvers intended for military use (both U. S. and British) will normally have property stampings on the top strap such as "United States Property" (until about SN V 278000, possibly higher), "U. S. Property" (balance), or "U. S. Navy." The former two property markings were used on revolvers made for the British Commonwealth because after the passage and implementation of the U. S. Lend-Lease Act of 1941, all revolvers (and most other items of war material) supplied to the British Commonwealth (and other Allied) forces during the war technically remained U. S. Property.

Many wartime production British .38/200 revolvers chambered in .38 S&W (and, in some cases, U. S. revolvers in .38 S&W Special) may be found having non-military modifications. During the post-war period, from the late 1950s and extending through the late 1960s, the .38/200 revolvers were declared surplus by the British government and sold to various U. S. arms importers for domestic sales. Modifications were made to them by the importers, involving shortening of barrels, re-boring .38 S&W chambers to accept .38 S&W Special cartridges, replacing wooden stocks, and re-finishing (including bluing and nickel plating), in order to enhance customer appeal for their mail-order sale on the U. S. civilian market (legal until 1968), and also sale through U. S. retailers. These post-war modified surplus .38/200 revolvers have neither collector nor significant monetary value and are best avoided by the collector, even though they do retain some utility for both casual shooting and personal defense for those interested in them.

Thanks that clears up the division of what I think of as Pre-Victory, Victory before V and the Victory. I have a certain fondness for a before-V 954XXX that bears U.S., British, New Zealand, German marking. Its a 5" BSR Victory.

Dwalt--

Thanx for taking the time to compile & post this timeline. I think it's excellent information & very helpful. I'm wondering why there isn't a separate category for Victory Models to receive all available info for the V-serial M&Ps. I see a title for a separate thread regarding a database for Victories & will have to read it to see how one gets that info.

One question: What is the reason for the term, "Pre-Victory?" I'm open to correction here, but it seems to me that 38 caliber fixed-sight M&Ps numbered from 1-999999 are simply Military & Police Revolvers, period. Many of this group were sold commercially, others were mfd & sold under contracts to police depts & foreign governments. Naturally, such contract guns would have variations in bbl length, finish & features such as lanyard loops, but they are still variations of M&P. Imo, the ONLY revolvers that should be called Victory Models are those with the V, SV or VS prefix to their serial numbers. Opinion--no offense intended.

Great information, thanks a lot. My V72xxxx seem to be produced sometime in the fall of 1944, lather served as a sidearm to the police or politzei in Freiburg Germany. It sure adds to the history. I bought it at a dealer in Denmark. A made a joke at our local shooting club, that it was good thing I finaly got a M-10 since there is only about 6millions in circulation. The Victory modell been infrequent enough, I am happy to have secured one!

It's purely a collector's term, due to the production time proximity and similar features to the Victory Models. The factory did not refer to them by this.

__________________
Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

I agree with the above. I personally consider pre-Victory guns to be those 4th Change M&P revolvers shipped for British military use in 1940-41, starting with SN 685000 (approximately). But any M&Ps made before SN V1 certainly could legitimately be considered as being "pre-Victory." Likewise, any M&Ps made at any time prior to the start of the Model 10 designation in mid-1957 could be called "pre-Model 10," but in my mind, only those C-series and very late S-series revolvers having the "high speed hammer" and SNs below about C438000 properly deserve that description.

I believe the pre-Victory designation is useful to distinguish the the wartime military contract guns from commercial production.

In the same sense a pre-model 10 isn't a model 10, but shares the same characteristics.

Thanks for updating and posting this info!

Rick

We have Pre-Victory Models and Pre- Model guns. And collectors quickly know which guns they identify. How about a new term: "Pre-Double Actions ?" That would cover all S&Ws from the Iron Frames up to the Model 3 .44DAs with one label. Any opinions? Ed.

Every or almost every S&W firearm will have an official factory Model name or model #. Any more than that was superfluous for S&W to sell and advertise it's products.

They will also have many collector nicknames which along with the model name or #, much more specifically identify the exact gun referred to without having an entire conversation complete with Q&A.

Examples of descriptive nicknames just for hand ejectors (which can include in-factory-only terms):

Triple Lock
Pre war
pre Victory
Post war
Postwar transitional
Pre model
a 5 screw, 4 screw or 3 screw
P&R (pinned and recessed)
MIM gun
pre lock
'mushroom', 'barrel', or straight ejector rod
double pinch, single pinch, and flat latch Thumbpiece
1 or 2 screw pre war rear sight
'coke' stocks, non-relieved, football cutout, or relieved target grips
Diamond vs. non-diamond stocks
Baby J or Baby Chiefs Spl
Improved I frame
rebated square butt
'One liner' for MADE IN U.S.A. frame stamp
Snubby for a 2" barreled model
1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th model
1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th or 5th change
service model
lend/lease gun
Post Ofc model
Reg or non-reg Mag
K/200
22/40
Bug screw
etc., etc., etc.

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

This is remarkable information, and should be a sticky here. It should also, with suitable photos, be printed in a gun magazine. I suggest offering it to The American Rifleman and if they refuse, to Man at Arms.

Better yet, bounce it off the editor at, Gun Digest. You might win the John Amber Award the year they print it.
You will need relevant photos (at least six) and to state sources consulted for your information. They can probably send current writer's guidelines.

You will need to explain why some of your figures differ from what Roy Jinks has said. In his History of Smith & Wesson, he claims that only somewhat (a few hundred) over 568,000 .38-200's were made. I'm too tired to walk into the next room and get the book now. That's a ways short of your figure, which may be based on later, improved info.

Good luck!

It was not my intention to put together anything for publication, just a condensed treatment of what's out there from numerous sources, such as this and other websites and various books and articles. Much of that information is inconsistent, thus my caution that the information provided by me is not authoritative. Also, just because Roy Jinks says something in a book, that is not necessarily the last word. For example, Jinks speaks of the 1945 improved hammer safety beginning at "V769000" (sic), but the Carl Hellstrom factory notes place the changeover SN somewhat earlier. Who is correct? I have no idea.

The best approach to doing this correctly would be to develop a documented Wikipedia article about the wartime (WWII) M&Ps that would allow anyone having verifiable data and information to include it. Having no access to factory records eliminates many from doing this, as that's the only place most such information resides. Publication of the entire Victory database (which I have never seen) would also help resolve some issues.

Without using something like the Wiki approach, you will always end up with suspect information - sort of like the endless debates about who used what guns in the ambush of Bonnie and Clyde.

So if I understand the data correctly, my gun would have a 1942 manufacture date? Thanks for compiling all the info.

A likely shipping date for that SN would be March 1943, but it could be a month or two later. The manufacturing date, as opposed to the shipping date, would be a bit earlier, possibly late 1942 or early 1943, but that information is unavailable.

Thanks for clarifying that for me.

Just acquired a U S Navy marked Victory. Serial # V190373, 4" bbl, 38 special. All number match, with the exception of grips. They were changed to a set of imitation stag magna type (currently looking for a good set of issue grips to take it back to "as issued".

According to the posted information, I believe this gun was produced in the 42-43 time frame. I'll try to get some pics to post ASAP.

Thanks,

Snipe

You are right - V190373 would probably have been shipped during the late 1942 to early 1943 period. Try eBay for smooth grips, they usually have some there, and not too expensive.

Friends,
I have been offered this revolver.

S&W Victory, Serial Number V 675448.

The first posting on this Victory forum gives this information:
1944 –
Start: (approximately) V490000.
Victory production reached serial number (approximately) V740000 by year-end 1944, with few changes made in features and finish.

First question:
What does "C of K" refer to?
What does C.H.D. refer to?
Is there anything remarkable about this revolver?
I have been quoted a price of $560.
This seems high to me, but I do not follow S&W prices.
I attach iPhone images for your information.
MQP

Attached Images

	C of K marking 1.jpg (220.2 KB, 244 views)
	C of K marking 2.jpg (220.6 KB, 242 views)
	C of K US Marks.jpg (143.3 KB, 291 views)
	C of K Barrel Marking.jpg (69.5 KB, 212 views)

It's not CHD, it's GHD - (Col) Guy H. Drewry, commander of the Army's Springfield Ordnance district. I'd guess "C of K" might mean "City of K____" possibly a former police gun. SN would make it from about September 1944. Not too much detail given in pictures to assess its worth, but the price strikes me as being on the high side. At least it's in .38 Special, and finish looks pretty good.

DWalt,
Thank you.
I do appreciate the clarification of the initials.
The finish is good, but not great, with light scratches here and there.
MQP

I found another S&W and couldn't pass it up, it's a 1905 4th modification at a pawn shop in really good condition, I put money down on it and he's holding it for me. I looked it over and checked out the bore, looks really clean. The serial number is 982xxx, was curious when this was made, any other info would be appreciated. I'll post images when I get it in my possession. Thanks

If it does not have any letter prefix, it would be a late pre-Victory, probably from late spring (April/May?) 1942. Does it have a lanyard swivel? And is the finish blue and the stocks checkered or does it have a Victory-type finish and smooth stocks? And is it marked .38 S&W or .38 S&W Special? And what's the barrel length?

From what I saw it had checkered grips and was a very dark blue. I'm pretty sure it was .38 Special, but I'll clarify that tomorrow.

That SN would almost certainly put the shipping date as being in late May 1942. At that time, the original finish would most likely have been blued (changeover to phosphate finish started in May 42) but not necessarily, but the original grips would almost certainly have been smooth wood as that changeover started in very early 1942. The .38 Specials would have 4" barrels, and there should be a lanyard loop. Some Navy contract pre-Victories (stamped U. S. NAVY on the topstrap) exist in that SN neighborhood, and if this is one of them, that would increase its value somewhat. This is a situation that calls for a little more in-depth research on exactly what is being sold before any money changes hands. It always helps in striking a better bargain if the buyer knows more than the seller.

I went up to drop some cash on it, it has a lanyard loop hole on the bottom, the lanyard loop is missing. I suppose I could find a replacement. It's definitely in .38 Special, I didn't look for the U.S. Navy stamp on the frame since I didn't see this until a bit ago. He did say the grips may have been replaced. Here's a picture:

It's not too difficult to find replacement lanyard swivels and grips. They show up often on eBay, and the gun parts houses may have them. I have a strong suspicion that yours may well have been re-blued. The margin around the side plate is too prominent, often a sign of an inexpert reblue job.

The grips look like aftermarket (unless the lighting is really playing a trick on my eyes), and the finish looks very much like a re-bluing job; all the edges are quite washed-out. But this does look to have been a standard 4-inch .38 Special pre-Victory with butt swivel.

The lighting is bright, it doesn't look like that in person. I'll try to get better pictures soon. The logo on the grip is silver and the hole on the butt of the grip looks like the lanyard loop was removed, not plugged or broken off.

Regarding those grips, you might want to look at this: White Ivory-Like molded grips

The grips on the pistol are wood, the lighting washes everything out :/ They are a light brown actually.

I wouldn't have believed it. I've not seen factory wood grips that light in color. In that case, they are Magnas from the mid-1950s or later. Or some copy thereof.

I'd still suspect the "copy thereof". That diamond looks awfully large and a bit awkwardly shaped and seems to have a differently-shaded trim around it.

Since you're getting the gun, it's probably best we wait until you can post a photo or two taken in natural light. That'll preclude any optical color or light distortions.

...excellent research data, thanks.
I 'adopted' S&W V707507 (.38 SPECIAL caliber, 4" bbl, military 'dry satin black" finish, rolled 'FLAMING BOMB' U.S.PROPERTY G.H.D. stamped, 'P' proof on top left near cylinder, and smooth grips) at the TULSA GUN SHOW yesterday. Two questions:
1. General month and year of manufacture?
2. Should the smooth wooden grips have 'V707507' stamped on both inner sides should I remove them? All else 'matches'.
Thank you in advance for your expertise and generous 'knowledge sharing'.
This a fantastic forum...
Ron Woods

That should place the gun in the second half of 1944; DWalt will have a closer date.

Generally, the serial number is only stamped on the inside of the right grip panel.

thanks...!
RON

There is a major error in post #1 regarding South African orders. I see that this was posted over two years ago; there are a number of more recent threads that address this matter. The first SA order was for 8800 guns and, immediately post Dunkirk, SA allowed the first 4000 odd to be delivered to Britain. Production for SA then started afresh. The quantity given in post #1 is the total ordered and delivered direct to SA from S&W before the establishment of the London Munitions Assignment Board with the coming of Lend Lease. The first 13847 had 4" barrels and the rest 5".

Peter

1. General month and year of manufacture? Likely shipped in 10/44
2. Should the smooth wooden grips have 'V707507' stamped on both inner sides should I remove them? Grips should be smooth wood, with SN stamped on back side of right panel.

...thanks, DWalt.
The grips are very good and the edges fit flush on all edges, however, do not match the pistol SER #. All pistol numbers are correct/ matching.
I am still very proud of my 'adoption'...!
RON

Does anyone know the significance of the letter "P" used as a suffix to a "V" prefix serial number of 6 numerals (between the V and the P)?

thank you in advance.

Does this P appear in only one or multiple locations? It was not a suffix that I'm aware of. But the P was used as a military proof mark, usually on the side as pictured below. According to Pate, a solitary P just on the butt was used for guns shipped on a "Navy contract administered by the Army". I'm fairly certain that's what you have.

Attached Images

image.jpg (45.0 KB, 100 views)

Thank you for the reply.

The S&W that we have has a letter "V" followed by a space, followed by a 6 digit serial number, followed by a space, followed by the letter "P". We assumed, and yes, I know what that means, that the string of characters taken in total constituted the serial number. See photo.

The cylinder is stamped with the letter "P", then the letter "V" and then the 6 numbers of the serial number, as shown in the second photo.

What do you think?

Appreciate the help.

Merry Christmas!

Mike

Attached Images

	IMG_8056.JPG (138.8 KB, 118 views)
	IMG_8062.JPG (123.1 KB, 101 views)

forgot to mention the the revolver is 99% engraved and any other stampings such as additional "P"s are not present.

Yes, your photos confirm what I said before. The P is not part of the serial, but the proof as I explained. You can notice how it is struck differently, even though it happens to be in line with the numbers under the barrel. Probably a fluke that it didn't end up in all places. There were inconsistencies during wartime production.

I have an additional tidbit to add to the Pre-Victory paragraph of DWalt's timeline. My letter from Mr. Jinks states my Union of South Africa example was part of a 1,800 unit shipment to South Africa. The shipment date was Dec. 1, 1940.

There is a chart on page 118 of Pate's publication showing the shipment of 8,800 of 4" barrel revolvers to S. Africa on Feb. 19, 1940. This is likely the reference made by Peter. The chart also states there was another shipment of 5,047 revolvers with 4" barrels to S. Africa on Oct. 9, 1940. Pate's publication does not reference the shipment of Dec. 1, 1940 mentioned by Mr. Jinks in my letter from S&W. This shipment was also probably 4" barrel revolvers since this is the barrel length of mine. Back to the chart in Pate's book since it also mentions a shipment of 7,500 revolvers with 5" barrels on Jun. 7, 1941 to S. Africa.

To another discussion about the "P" stamped marking: Mine has the P mark on the butt to the far right of the lanyard whereas the serial number is to the left of the lanyard. This is the only place I can find the "P" on my example.

To follow on lamarw's post regarding South African Pre-Victory models, here are mine with their factory letters.

This latest information raise more questions than answers. Here is what I come up with on S&W shipment of Pre-Victory Revolvers to the Union of South Africa:

DATE BARREL QUANITY SOURCE

Feb. 19, 1940 4" Barrel 8,800 each Pate's Book

May. 3, 1940 4" Barrel Unknown S&W Ltr. on SN: 685147

Aug. 1, 1940 4 inch* 1,800 each S&W Ltr. on SN: 720058

Oct. 9, 1940 4" Barrel 5,047 each Pate's Book

Dec. 1, 1940 4" Barrel 1,800 each S&W Ltr. on SN: 720730

Jun. 7, 1941 5" Barrel 7,500 each Pate's Book

Here are some assumptions on my part:

1. * - The revolvers delivered on Aug. 1, 1940 were 4" barrel revolvers since the S&W Letter was on a 4" revolver. Shipments seemed to consist of revolvers of the same barrel length.

2. There is something amiss since one of the revolvers in the Aug. 1, 1940 shipment was serial number 720058 and one of the revolvers in the Dec. 1, 1940 shipment was serial number 720730. This is a difference of 672 revolvers. Yet Pate's book states a shipment of Oct. 9, 1940 of 5,047 revolvers between the above two serial numbers.

Are we to surmise the numbers published in Pate's book are incorrect?

While Pate isn't perfect, my first suspect would be irregularities in the sequence of serial numbers shipped. By that time, the factory was mostly filling large institutional official orders and accumulated guns for larger shipments. I had a Victory which, extrapolated from other serial numbers, was made in October or November 1942, but didn't ship until April 1943, together with another lettered gun to the same destination about 30,000 (IIRC) or so serial numbers later. That kind of issue is where I'd surmise the reason first, not Pate using wrong numbers.

Got it! Thanks for the help, Absalom.

Merry Christmas!

Yes Absalom, You and DWalt have both pointed out your observations of shipments out of serial number order.

This possibly explains the "amiss" part of my assumption. I do find it interesting that of three Letters associated with the revolvers of LOBO, two Letters, and mine, one letter, none corresponded to the shipment dates printed in Mr. Pate's publication. This is not to dispute Mr. Pate's data; although it is interesting he was not aware of the additional shipments. I am sure if he had been made aware of it, they would of been published. The data possibly was simply not readily available at the time of his research.

The shipments to South Africa I mentioned in my early post total 24,947 Pre-Victory Revolvers in 1940 and 1941. This is without knowing how many were in the May 3, 1940 shipment. We could make a very "questionable assumption" it was another 1,800.

Maybe Peter can advise us on the number he is aware of having been directly shipped to the Union of South Africa. It appears he has done a lot of detailed research in this area. He may or may not be surprised at the above numbers.

I have not researched squat other than to count the eggs in the basket as a result of Mr. Pate's excellent publication and the numbers referenced in this forum thread.

Hello Chaps

There are numerous errors in both Pate's book and the factory letters. I need a few days to find the time to explain further, but for starters would point out that the first SA contract order was placed in mid Feb 1940. Clearly none could have been shipped that month in what was a new calibre for the model!

Peter

Peter, I look forward to your research results and personal analysis. Lamar