I picked this revolver up from an old friend sight unseen. Its a 6 shot 38 S&W , ser #7080** with some cheesy plastic grips...No emblems on the frame, has 4 screw(one missing) and square butt. Any guesses on model/ year and value would be appreciated.



Hard to read in this pic is "38 S&W CTG"



Also has a nickle plated trigger and hammer

Welcome! This is most likely a .38/200 British service revolver from about 1940. It has a 6" barrel, which is uncommon for this type (5" was the standard length). The number on the bottom of the grip frame should be on the rear cylinder face and barrel flat (near the ejector rod) if it has original parts. The trigger and hammer would have been case-colored.

It may have had a bright blue finish from the factory but this one looks refinished. A Parkerized-style finish was the most common. It probably had checkered walnut service stocks as standard. Hope this is helpful.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

That is correct - yours is one of the S&W pre-Victory .38/200 revolvers made for the British before the US entered the war. Yours would have been shipped very early in 1941. There are some issues. At that time, the original finish would have been blued, and grips would have been checkered wood with S&W medallions. Many had 5" barrels, but 6" is not that unusual at this time. There would also, probably, have been a lanyard loop on the butt. Your finish appears to be a reblue job from your pictures, but I am not 100% sure. It just does not have the crisp appearance of a revolver with its original factory finish. You might also check to see if the chambers have been bored out to accept .38 S&W Special cartridges. That really does affect value. Many were bored and many were refinished after the war. I note you are missing one sideplate screw, but those are available. You often see the term "Lend-Lease" - yours is not a Lend-Lease gun, too early.

The revolvers sent to the British Commonwealth at this time were essentially identical to commercial civilian revolvers made by S&W before the war, with the exception of their being in .38 S&W caliber, which was the standard British military revolver caliber of that period. At the time yours was made, the S&W factory was doing little else besides building these .38/200 revolvers for Britain.

I forgot about the nickeled hammer and trigger. That would not have been original, and that fact also makes re-bluing more probable. The collectible value of yours is very little in that condition. If the chambers have been bored, it is even less. You might be able to sell it for $150-250, but sight unseen, and not knowing the chamber situation, it is not possible to be very precise regarding market value. I hope you bought it cheaply.

It originally looked like this. This one is 709xxx.

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Dennis

Hello
We heartily welcome you to the Forum. You have found the best place on the Internet to obtain good, factual information about S&W handguns.

Regarding the part of your message that I've quoted here, you actually have what we call a 5 screw frame. As you have correctly noted, there are four screws holding the sideplate on. But there is also a screw in the front of the trigger guard that retains the spring for the cylinder stop. It is counted as a frame screw, making your revolver a 5 screw gun. The top sideplate screw disappeared from this model revolver in the mid-1950s. The screw in the trigger guard was eliminated in the early 1960s, when S&W changed the design of the cylinder stop.
Regards,
JP

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

Welcome to the forum! Just to add a bit to what you have already read, the missing sideplate screw is also the screw that holds the cylinder in place (you may already have noticed that!). Personally I wouldn't fire it until the screw is replaced. If you post an add in the Wanted section, I have little doubt someone here can help you with locating the proper screw. Congratulations on a cool revolver!

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Even older, even crankier....

Can anybody give me an idea of the age of a Chiefs Special snubby with Serial # J3284XX. It's been in the family for over 25 years and I believe it was purchased used.

1975-76 according to the Standard Catalog of Smith and Wesson. Welcome to the Forum!

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Even older, even crankier....

Welcome to the forum finstr.

I can mostly only second the information you’ve already been given.

These details strongly indicate that your M&P was refinished: the upper side plate screw hole is dished and the left hand end of its hammer pivot and rebound slide pins were polished flat.

My guess is that rather than being nickel plated the trigger and hammer were polished to remove rust at the time the revolver was reblued.

Now I have a question for the forum’s experts: why were no stamps applied before its acceptance into military service and no proof marks applied before its resale into the civilian market? I’m biting my tongue to keep from speculating.

Thanks gentlemen, this info sheds some light on the subject. I've been reading quite a bit on the web about these guns but the more I read the more confusing it gets! Now that I take a second look at it I can see the witness signs of a polish and reblue job. I thought it looked pretty good for it's age. I must say that the blue looks like a good job and not a basement cold blue.The numbers all match & there is a hole in the butt where the lanyard loop was removed and the cylinder does tend to fall out in my hand from the missing screw. You guys nailed it all I bought this gun because my friend was going to have it destroyed before going into the retirement home. So not really an investment piece more of a "$75 rescue shelter" project.

One question; will the stock K frame grips fit this gun? Seems I read that somewhere.

Yes, replacing the forward sideplate screw will keep the cylinder in place, and you can also find a replacement lanyard ring. Any square butt K frame stocks should fit, perhaps with minor fitting, but gunfish's photo above shows the style of the original stocks.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

I wouldn't be surprised if the only official acceptance stamp on a gun of this era was a "P" on the butt. As far as it having no British proof stamps, perhaps it stayed in Canada during WW II, or came back from overseas through "unofficial" channels (a duffel bag or trunk)?

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Hello,
To answer your stock question, K frame grips should fit your revolver.

for K22fan: I have a M&P in 38S&W caliber with 5" barrel and lanyard swivel, commercial blue finish and checkered medallion stocks. Its SN is 810738. It has no military markings of any sort, either acceptance marks or sold out of service stamps. I believe that these guns were bought through Remington for the British and shipped directly to some commonwealth country which didn't do all the stamping that England did. I briefly owned an identical gun which also had no markings to indicate military service. Neither gun had importers stamps, so they were brought back into the US before that requirement went into effect.

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Tom
1560

For $75, it's great. But a set of original stocks will cost you more than that. As it wil be a shooter, not a collector, I would recommend getting either Pachmayr or Hogue rubber grips for a K-frame Smith, should be less than $20 from eBay. Lots of other used K-frame grips can also be found there. Have you checked the chambering for modification to .38 Special? But the first duty would be to replace the missing sideplate screw. I don't believe the screw from a postwar S&W will fit, as the thread was changed sometime in the 1940s, or at least I think so.

Thanks for the assist.

A10 gave important advise when he discouraged firing this revolver without a front side plate screw. That screw doesn’t just prevent the yoke from being removed while it is swung open. Also at lock up it holds the yoke/cylinder assembly back for correct headspace and barrel cylinder gap. If it’s fired without the screw the front of the cylinder will drag on the back of the barrel rubbing bluing off the cylinder face. The drag will create a terrible double action pull. Also the excess head space might cause missfires. As a temporary fix either the rear or lower side plate screw could be moved into the front hole.

I’d start a new thread in the S&W-smithing forum asking about when or if the front side plate screw thread or dimensions were changed. The only change I’m aware of occurred in the early 1990s when a spring loaded hardened pin with a cone shaped end was added inside the end of the screw.

Here is an older thread about sideplate screws:

Screw pitch for K side plate screws?

Wouldn't a Victory Model screw fit? Might be easiest to find. But most will have Parkerized-looking finish.

Can you order gun parts from the USA? Can you guys even have gun shows up there?

BTW, those screws on the gun are not interchangeable. The yoke screw is a special one. Each screw needs to go into its correct hole.

We do have gun shows up here approx every 8 weeks or so. I'll look for one there. It really doesn't matter to me whether the screw is parkerized or blue as this will be a shooter and not a collection piece. I found some wood K frame grips for $5 a pair so I bought 2 pairs This would be a good project gun so it may get a parkerized finish as well as the 38 spcl conversion...maybe

The conversion to 38 special, may lead to some problems. Others will chime in to explain, I am sure.

Converting it to .38 Special is an excellent way to cut its current value in half. In addition to the conversion cost loss. Parkerizing is not a good idea either.

Man! You guys drive a hard bargain,lol. I guess I'll leave it the way it is then. I like it the way it is but I thought it would be a candidate to modify or mess with since I saved it from destruction. Can you believe I bought a set of RCBS dies for it for $15 (used) in mint condition? I had to dig thru about 80 sets of used pistol dies before I found the only set of 38s&w they had.

You have exactly the right idea. For a shooter, loading your own .38 S&W is the only way to go. You should use .360-.361 lead bullets, but .357-.358 will work OK, and I used them for many years. Or use HBWCs seated out. .38 Super dies work OK, and that is what I have always used. I understand some people use .38 Special or 9mm dies, even though those will size the case diameter down a little. With your gun, you can load .38 S&W up to .38 S&W Special levels and be safe, unlike having one of the old top breaks.

Here's an updated pic with the new wood. Makes me wonder why anybody would want those cheesy Franzite grips.
Total investment as is - $80
Now if I could just find one of those screws....

Well!
That looks a lot better.
You do understand, I hope, that those stocks would not be what your gun came with. Those stocks come from the post-1968 period. But they look a whole lot better on there than those plastic grips did!
Jack

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

Yes, I do Jack. This gun is past being collectable I think because of the reblue and the fact that the sharpness of the roll stamping is gone. So now its just a shooter, which I'm perfectly OK with. My daughter thinks it's really cool and has shown some interest in wanting to shoot it. This is a first in alot of years so maybe I can get her hooked on the shooting sports now while she's still interested.

I did check into the thread pitch and it certainly is a #5-44.

It looks much better with the walnut stocks. I like using magnas better with a grip adapter. A prior owner probably went to the plastic stocks to get the same feel. The bluing also looks very nice in your pictures. Despite picky collectors' objections it makes sense to me to reblue most common worn guns just like it makes sense to repaint an old house.

My Lyman carbide .38 super die set is marked for both cartridges. If you get around to reloading it enough you'll probably want a carbide resize die. Any brand .38 super resizer should be the correct diameter. It will likely be easier to find a .38 super carbide die or set than one marketed as .38 S&W.

The 5th top side plate screw has its own thread size, but disregarding whether they are round head or flat head the other three are the same. The rear one changed from round head to flat head after service stocks were completely dropped and replaced by magnas. The factory traditionally gave the front yoke retaining screw a tiny grind on its end solely to identify it and encourage owners to keep it in its original hole. It's generally best to keep all the screws in their original holes but most of us have bought used S&Ws in which they were switched around.

Great! Do it. And be very patient with her. Let's hope she gets addicted to it. Lots of worse things to do with her time than spending time at the range. My daughter and I have a date at the range coming up soon (she's pushing 40 and shot with me more in the old days, before she got married). She recently decided she likes my Combat Masterpiece. It's now on the list for her, specifically, to inherit when I croak.
Jack

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318