Haven't posted any new photos in quite a while so I thought I'd start with this one. I've had it for a good year now and just haven't gotten around to taking it's official portrait!

As you can see from Roy Jinks' letter, it's a USMC contract M&P that shipped in December of 1953. There was an excellent article on the "Victory Officer's Model" as it was called, that appeared in one of the past SWCA Journals written by Max Hayward. A special thanks to Kevin Williams in helping me identify this one... it had been on my radar for a while but I didn't realize what it was.

These M&P's were procured for the U.S. Marines by the U.S. Army at the Springfield Ordnance District. From what I understand, there was only a handful of orders for these models and they were shipped to both the west coast (Barstow, California) and east coast (Camp LeJeune).

This particular M&P is both roll marked on the backstrap with "U.S. Property" and bears the "P" proof mark on the left side frame. It was originally shipped with a blue finish, however this one, as well as another known Barstow gun, is parkerized.

Enjoy... OORAH!

A special thanks to all our past and present armed service folks!

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Linda
SWCA #1965, SWHF #245

I take it there's nothing on or about the gun itself that distinguishes these as USMC pieces?

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SWHF #448

db, that's correct. This particular model does fall within a known serial number range. A good indication is the military stampings and lanyard ring, however these can be faked. The only way of knowing for sure is by getting a factory letter.

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Linda
SWCA #1965, SWHF #245

Linda, Great find! These are seldom encountered and when they are, they get over looked unless you are really aware of this variation. We all know what a "Pre-Victory" is and, of course the true V stamped Victory Model. I call this variation a "Post Victory," as the frames have the 4 line stamp, not just the "Made in USA" Victory Model stamp. It does have the first two variations as ancestors in it's DNA. I must disagree with Max Hayward's label ( Max is a very knowledgable K frame collector) of "Officer's Model Victory." I was at Barstow,CA. in 1953 and I never saw any USMC Officers with "Officer's Model Victories" although at that time stateside Marine enlisted personnel ( except MPs) were not generally issued handguns, only officers. I think he should have called it a "Post-Victory." I notice Roy's letter says the finish is blue. I think he meant "Sand Blast Blue" unless the gun was refinished by the Marines to the military dull blue finish. Just my 2 cents, Ed.

I hate to disagree with you, Uncle Ed, but they were originally blue, not sand blast blue. Also, Max used the term Victory Officer's Model because that is how they were labeled in the USMC Technical Manual TM-00538-24.
Regards,
Kevin Williams

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Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

Kevin, I have to pull Max's tail every now and then to keep him in line. Linda's pictured gun appears to be sand blast blue in the photo, that's why I commented on it vs. the finish cited in Roy's letter. Maybe the Marines refinished the gun? What you have to consider here, is the fact that the Tech manual was probably written by Marines, who have zero knowledge of the proper name for Smith & Wesson revolvers, nor the benefit of us collectors pointing out to them that the guns were "Post-Victory" models, not "Officers" models. They probably had long and boring debates each evening in the 29 Palms "O" Club whether to name them "Officers Models" or "Enlisted Mens' Models" Ed.

I would be more likely to consider the most legitimate post-Victory model (a term which I have never used) to be those having an S-prefixed SN, as that was the group which went into production immediately after the Victory series ended in late 1945. The C-prefix series did not follow until 1948, so those would be a post-post-Victories, by my logic, extending into 1967.

Ed,
I'm sure you're right and that you are safe in ignoring those MEU jarheads climbing over your back fence to discuss the matter further. ;-)
Regards,
Kevin

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Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

I have a question - Why is the U. S. Property stamping always inside quotation marks? You see the same on Colts.

I saw this particular gun 3 or 4 times at various shows on the east coast. It was tagged as a "Victory".

At quick glance, I knew it wasn't the "Victory" model I'm used to seeing... it had a post war hammer and a C serial number prefix. I passed on it, thinking that someone got real creative, parkerized it and added a lanyard ring.

I later found out (thanks, Kevin!) that there were some legitimate military shipments within this serial number range, having the same markings. Lucky for me, the gun made it to another show and I bought it along with a WWII Victory.

From Max Hayward's article, I learned that at least one other known USMC M&P was also parkerized..... originally they were shipped from the factory with a blued finish. It's very possible that the "parkerized" finish was done at a military installation.

I'm not completely sure how many were originally shipped to the USMC or how many known examples have been located. From time to time, I'm sure some will pop up... hopefully, they'll be recognized and not passed over!

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Linda
SWCA #1965, SWHF #245

Kevin, I think DWalt has a point I hadn't considered. The gun is truly a Post Post Victory if we want to keep the Victory DNA lineage correct, right? I have great respect for the Marines. They were always the best source for a midnight requisition of any small arm ordnance my unit was short of in Korea. You could count on their weapons being in top condition. :-) Ed.

Here's another example - "We have researched your Smith & Wesson Military & Police revolver, with serial number C265559, in company records. Our records show this handgun was shipped on January 25, 1954, to Marine CPS Annex., Camp Lejeune, NC. The records indicate that this was a 4 inch barrel and blue finish. It was part of a large Military order for the .38 Military and Police Model." How did the Marine Corp use these sidearms? Were they replacements for the 1911's and Victories? Or were they used primarily for training?

Dave, 1134

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	USMC Pre-10 backstrap.jpg (130.5 KB, 270 views)

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Dave

Dave... That's very nice looking!

Thanks for posting!

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Linda
SWCA #1965, SWHF #245

Kevin, that's a very good looking one! I'm going to have to keep looking for a blue one!

Do you have a list of known survivors, in addition to the ones listed in Max Hayward's article? Just wondered how scarce they are.

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Linda
SWCA #1965, SWHF #245

I added a very few to the list from Max's article. He also notes two earlier shipments that do not have the US Property roll marks or the P stamp. I have one of these too that shipped to Camp Le Jeune on 6/29/53 as 1 of 1,200. There was a shipment on 6/11/53 to Barstow, CA of 484 revolvers. I don't know if all of them have the crude USP like mine.
Regards,
Kevin Williams

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Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

Interesting thread! Thanks for the memories...I won't crawl over any fences as wasn't in the MEU but did build 1911A1 MEUSOC pistols for them(:->) that being said, we saw many of these wheel guns while stationed at 1st FSSG Ordnance Maintenance Co Inf Weapons' Repair shop @ Las Pulgas on Camp Pendleton '87-'90. Most of the guns were from the Marine air groups...MAG-39 and others, but mostly MAG-39 helo pilots and air crew on Pendleton. The guns were mostly sand blasted and blued-not by us, but maybe @ Rock Island or Springfield or Anniston. Many of the revolvers I assumed @ that time to be original Victories and don't remember any USMC markings, but were stamped property of U.S. Govt. and all the Victory style we were seeing had the old smooth walnut panels with lanyard loops though. Funny,sometimes we would receive a pistol lanyard of maybe 10 or 15 guns on one lanyard from the Navy posted backside near Fallbrook on the NWS for their guards, and those were marked U.S. Navy as best recalled. Many of the .38's were model 15 cm's in both blue and the rough blue or park to include model 10 tapered and many m&p heavy bbl m10'so. We occaisionally would see some model 12's, and I saw a Colt cobra several times that belonged to NIS. NIS also had many 3" models by S&W and Ruger for plain clothes folks.
At that time, when Marines went through the Army/Marine Ordnance school @ Aberdeen, the Marines would split off from the soldiers for the revolver course that was about 3 days long to learn S&W and Ruger .38's. We did learn a little about the guns as we replace and fitted most parts that needed it. There were a couple of advanced Marine mos 2112 gunsmiths in the shop that had been to the armourer's courses @ S&W's school and they helped us with fitting/timing of cylinders and hands, etc. I later in '90 was fortunate to be sent to the advanced school @ Quantico too, where I eventually got my turn to go to S&W for pistols as well. Interestingly when there, we each set up 10 of the 1st Model 1006's that went to FBI academy, which is located right next door to WTBN on Quantico and our shop. We had more .38's and Model 19's there to support MSG at that time. Col. Walter Walsh was seen in our shop on some occasions as he used to be the Bn CO and was/is huge hero to all of us-and he knew something about Smith & Wessons too! :-> Beautiful revolvers posted here, thanks for sharing....Best, Mike

Thanks for your contribution, Mike. It is always interesting to hear from someone who has actually used or seen these old guns in service. And, we're practically neighbors!

Regards,
Kevin Williams

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Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

It has been known for years that the US military has ordered M&P/Model 10 revolvers, primarily for issue to security and air units.

All that we've established here is that some guns were eventually refinished (when needed) with Parkerizing and that some were sent to USMC units in a certain time frame.

I understand that some USAF M-15 .38's were also refinished that way, which is a typical military refinish. All of those Combat Masterpiece guns I saw in the 1960's were commercally blued and all had target hammers and triggers with U.S.A.F. marked above the trigger on the left side of the frame. Evidently all postwar .38 purchases had normal blued finishes when shipped.

These were used alongside Victory Models and (later) were joined by fixed-sight Ruger Security-Six and/or Speed-Six revolvers. These were also usually (if not always) chambered in .38. They had lanyard rings.

Marines assiged to US Embassy duty may have also had some .357 guns, as did US State security personnel.

I believe that the vastly greater number of the USMC .38's were issued to air units and Embassy staff. But some paymasters, etc. might have had one in lieu of a .45 auto.
Marine ground combat units normally used .45 autos until the Beretta M-9 became standard.

I doubt that the crudely scratched markings seen on one gun above are authentic. I'd have to see proof to be convinced they aren't just faked or placed there by some former Marine for sentiment's sake. They sure ruined the looks of the gun.

I'd be very surprised if any of these .38's were designated as Officers Models. Frankly, when I saw that thread title, I was expecting to see some nickled (outside the factory) gun being sold as a fake "Officers Model." I was very pleased to see what we actually have. Nice photos, if no real surprises about the guns, which have been procured off and on since WW II. Whichever variant was the norm in civilian production at the time was what was shipped. So, some have that "Speed" or squiggle hammer.

It was said that only MP's among enlisted Marines in the 1950's were issued sidearms. I'm pretty sure that couriers, crew-served weapons teams, tankers, etc. would also have had sidearms, although usually .45's.

I was interested to learn in one post above that USMC armorers at Quantico were also servicing M-19's. It would be interesting to know to whom they were issued. My guess is mainly to Embassy guards.

There are some nice pics here. And I enjoyed the letter about one of Linda's guns.

BTW, Army aviation units also usually had .38's. We've had posts here from their pilots who carried them. Some of the Army guns have round butts. Didn't know about heavy barrels, but see Mikeruns post above. He saw them, so some were used. And there were some Airweight snubs. I read an article somewhere that mentioned one pilot using his M-12 to shoot North Viet soldiers trying to enter his helicopter while it was downed. Many Army pilots also carried M-16's or other rifles or SMG's.

I noted in a recent photo from Afghanistan that HRH Prince Harry had not only a Browning 9mm on him, but a 5.56mm rifle in his 'copter. He has also been shown in news footage with that rifle in his quarters and carrying it out and about on his base. His combat helo unit often supports US troops on the ground. I think he flies the Apache attack helicopter. This is just a side note about 'copter pilots often carrying shoulder arms as well as handguns. I realize that the British practice has nothing to do with US sidearms or when they were procured.

Texas Star, the Model 19's were training revolvers for MSG (Marine security guard) school at Quantico, they trained at our range on weapon training bn as MSG had them as sidearms at most embassy posts, yet some were issued M9's shortly after in the early 90's. One of my bosses, a GySgt, was schooled then assigned to MSG Jamaica and was issued an M9 which stayed with him on and off duty in and out of uniform there during his tour he told me. The model 10's I saw from Marine air group mostly square butts, but also included many round butts in heavy barrel and taper configurations. We carried the 1911A1 for shop security when I first started my duty as armourer @ Pendleton as a LCpl, but changed our shop security weapon to the M9 in '89 and at that time most units were changing to same except MP's, who carried the 1911A1 for a couple more years at that base. Sergeants, E-5 and below at that time carried a sidearm as MP'S, machine gunner's, ammo techs & armourers, and some folks who had missions where they maybe were doing something where an M16-A2 would be unwieldly to their duty like infantry Navy Corpsman, etc. I never heard any of the revolvers referred to as officer's Victory either. I did see a General officer's 1911A1 combat commander once at Quantico, and it was the only pistol I've ever seen that was specific to rank structure.
As an interesting side note, I worked at a consolidated issue/recovery armoury near our Bn hq near the air group for a couple months, and one of the other armourers there show some of their weapons- of interest to me was a survival combo gun I believe to have been Armalite-it was .22lr over a .410 bbl which was stored in the seat of a Cobra I believe as part of the rescue/survival kit. Basically a steel frame stock over/under similar to Savage M24 with holes for spare ammo in the stock and it folded in two for compact storage. I've seen those before my service in gun rags and have seen them more recently being offered by another company I don't recall which manufacturer now. Another interesting pistol, that belonged to 1st force recon, was an old HS HD Military model which was complete with suppressor exactly like the one that the Russians retrieved from our downed U2 spy plane-we saw pictures of that somewhere and anyway I handled the one from recon-fun to see. Saw lots of other stuff including unissued Browning automatic rifles in foil/paper wrap with their complete basic issue kits, and some of the early sniper stuff from Vietnam and Korea. Saw some very early pre-war model 70's including serial #46. Any who, I thought you might find that interesting. Cheers, Mike

Mike,

The survival O/U you describe is an M6. A few were made by H&R but most of them were made by Ithaca. There was a civilian version made for awhile by Springfield Armory (the commercial outfit, not THE SA) called the Scout. The M6 replaced the M4 which was a little bolt action rifle in .22 Hornet with wire stock designed by Armalite but made by H&R.
Regards,
Kevin Williams

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Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

KWill-bang you nailed it! That is spot on, thanks for refreshing my memory! :->

My bet would be that the specifications stated "The weapon shall be marked "U.S. Property" on the grip frame" and someone at S&W knew government procurement procedures well enough not to gamble on some G-2 clerk rejecting the shipment because the marking didn't look EXACTLY like the spec sheet.

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I need ammo, not a ride.

There are a few of us here in Camp Lejeune town, Jacksonville, NC, who would love to get our hands on one of those "babies" shipped to CLNC. I wonder how many may still be out there on base, since they never throw anything away?

medxam

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Doc Garrett
Dead Man's Doctor

Mikeruns-

Thanks. I wondered about the M-19's. Glad I guessed right.

I was USAF. Saw a display of survival equipment in a building where I sometimes worked as access controller. They had both M-4 and M-6 collapsible survival guns. I never saw one fired, though. They fit into a seat pack below a pilot's parachute and were probably fitted in other aircraft, too.

I was very disappointed in the survival knife shown. It was a small Boker sheath knife that didn't look too sturdy or even very high quality. A typical Case or Western equivalent would be as good or better. If they needed something that small, they should have bought the Buck Model 102, I think, or a Puma Hunter's Pal. But both were probably too expensive for the budget. And the bureaucrats who buy such things seldom know the market well. Fortunately, many aircrew carried better knives.

We're guilty of some pretty serious thread drift here but....

TS, that little Boker 155 was chosen by Major (later Colonel) Burton Miller after evaluation by students in the survival school at Stead AFB. They also tested Randall Model 14 knives, which they deemed too heavy and clumsy. This was the first SAC survival knife and is a hard one to find. Thanks to our own ordnanceguy and knife expert Frank Trzaska for uncovering the story.

Regards,
Kevin Williams

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Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

An excellent pre model 10 USMC sold on GB for about 2700 for those looking for value range

I have a pre model 10 #C 264917 "U.S. Property" marked that letters being delivered to a USMC Supply Depot in Barstow California.

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Go West young man..

Wow. It appears is if my Pre-Model 10 may be one of these also. My serial # is C 264640, built only 277 units before 1-1917's.

While there is no lanyard on my gun, there is a recess in the bottom of the frame where it looks like a lanyard once lived (I wonder how hard would it be to source a correct lanyard?). And, while "US PROPERTY" is not stamped on the backstrap, there is a "P" stamped on the left side of the frame in front of the hammer.

Does it sound like mine is one of these? Does it absolutely have to have the "US PROPERTY" stamp on it or were there some shipped w/o it?

I guess I should spend the $75 for a letter from Roy Jinks?

What do you all think?

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Welcome from the Ozarks of S/W Missouri a year late.
Get the letter and let us know.

It is likely one of the USMC (or perhaps an Army?) contract gun.

It appears to have been refinished, so that may explain the loss of the backstrap rollmark. The butt swivel is readily available, along with the retaining crosspin.

I would recommend a letter because it will turn out to be an interesting gun, one way or another.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Your gun is refinished, as is clear from the trigger and hammer, so the property stamp could have fallen victim to that, especially if someone thought it wise to not be in possession of a government-property gun; people used to worry about such things

PS: Alan types faster.

Yes, get the letter. The lanyard hole and the P together with the neighborhood of the serial are more than enough evidence to justify the letter.

Looks like it was refinished, and U.S Property markings polished off backstrap (look at grip fit). It falls in the correct range only you can decide if it is worth it to you...

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Randy

Thanks for the replies guys. I guess my eye is not that good, as I cannot tell that the gun has been refinished. How the heck can you guys tell from pics? Good theory as to what happened to the stamp though. Does the fact that its been refinished diminish its value or desirability at all? I inherited this gun from a family member so I have no intention of selling it but I'm just curious I guess. Along those lines, are these "USMC" lot more valuable than the standard ones?

Yes and yes are the short answers

For collectors, both the refinish and even more the apparently scrubbed marking significantly reduce the appeal of the gun. But these are not common and (if original) will draw considerably higher prices than standard M&P’s of the same time, which are very common.

There aren’t enough of these out there for me to be confident about putting any actual dollar amount on this, neither an untouched original nor your modified one. Maybe others have a better idea.

The first order for the USMC were not US Property marked. Get a letter.

Forgot to answer that part of your question.

As I alluded to, the hammer and trigger. They always left the factory case-hardened, distinct in color, never blued like on your gun. So a finished trigger and hammer is the most obvious sign of a refinish, since no one in his right mind would just blue those two parts.

The attached photo is of a wartime M&P that was actually refinished, but the trigger and hammer were left in the original case color; this picture shows the contrast especially clearly.

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So I have decided to move forward with "restoring" this gun as best as possible. I have located a "lanyard" butt swivel/pin at Numrich and a fellow forum member is looking into a factory correct (finish) hammer/trigger for me. Thank you for all the input here, I appreciate it.

P.S. I will also be requesting a letter from Roy Jinks to hopefully verify that this gun is indeed one in the "USMC" lot. After all, it was purchased in a pawn shop several years ago (by a family member) in the Coachella Valley, which is right next door to Barstow.

Regards,
John Hopkins

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My Dad's gun. Issued to him. Called back to duty for Admiralty[IMG][/IMG] staff {Korean Conflict}