38 mp with adj. sights.

gregt1 · #1 03-20-2013, 10:39 AM

Can anyone help me with what I have ? the last pat'd is 1904 and the sn is 50xxx . it has round stocks and they are sn'd.
the letter B and E is also present near the # on the frame. any help would be great.

(locating parts).
thanks so much.

DCWilson · #2 03-20-2013, 11:53 AM

Something is a little inconsistent here. If the serial number you cite comes from the butt of the gun, and if the same number is found on the flat underside of the barrel and on the rear surface of the cylinder, you have a .38 Military & Police Model of 1902, first change. But the last patent date on the barrel should be 1901, not 1904.

I am not sure about the B and E on the frame. These are stamped on the butt next to the serial number? Or on the frame surface that is exposed only when you swing the cylinder open? In the latter location they are probably just fitter's marks. On the butt they may be agency or owner initials stamped on the gun after it was delivered.

A picture or two would help confirm this tentative identification.

Many parts for old S&Ws are available from David Chicoine (Old West Gunsmith), Jack First Gun in South Dakota, and Poppert's Gun Parts in Pennsylvania. The all have web sites.

gregt1 · #3 03-20-2013, 12:47 PM

Thanks David, the b and e are on the swing out part of the frame. 1901 is also correct. The next ? is about the 4 screw model.Is the cylinder stop spring in the trigger guard and only accessable after you take out the stop? and are the parts for the cylinder stop 5 screw the same for the 4. (spring ,stud and cylinder stop).called Jack first gun and no luck.

DCWilson · #4 03-20-2013, 01:13 PM

These early Hand Ejectors are sometimes called "pre five-screw four-screw" guns because the company didn't introduce the familiar fifth screw until a couple of years later. Yes, you access the spring (and plunger? -- can't remember if there is one on these early designs) that tensions the cylinder stop after removing the cylinder stop.

I wish I could give you a clear answer on the identical parts question, but there were lots of minor changes to these .38s from their 1899 introduction up to 1915, when the design stabilized for several decades. I don't know if the cylinder stop and spring had different specs for the 1902s and 1905s.

gregt1 · #5 03-20-2013, 01:34 PM

thanks so much .it looks like i'm going to have to make the part . popperts says no go and so did jack first gun. I think its a coil spring , just cant imagine why its not working cause it looks impossible to remove the stop .it doesnt clear the frame ,the only thing left is the stud but Ithink its threadded and the collar to take it out is under the stop ???.oh more fun.

DCWilson · #6 03-20-2013, 02:17 PM

Here are some pics of a 1902/first. This is what you should see with the sideplate off:

This is what you should see with the action removed.

I am not sure why you can't clear the frame with the cylinder lock. Possibly there is some grime in the open wedge between the body of the lock and the frame that prevents the lock from rotating down far enough for the lock arm itself to clear the frame. You might try digging in there with a needle and flushing it with spray lubricant. But I got this one apart several years ago, and I would think you could get yours apart too.

Sometimes just grabbing the cylinder lock with needle-nose pliers and wiggling will get it out if its tight quarters. Good luck.

gregt1 · #7 03-20-2013, 05:49 PM

great pics.BIG THANKS.do you remember if there was a spring within the cyl stop? maybe thats what is hanging it up? Ican"t tell but is there a cam on the stop pin?(groove or notch)

gregt1 · #8 03-20-2013, 06:07 PM

Hey David can you tell if there was a seperate lever riding on the cylinder stop? It looks like one sticking out of the trigger, RT>side.

DCWilson · #9 03-20-2013, 06:09 PM

There is definitely a coil spring. When reassembling, you need to insert it in its pocket, then use a tiny screwdriver to compress it while you drop the cylinder lock down on its stud and slide the body past the end of the spring.

I haven't been inside an early gun like this one for a long time, and I don't recall the exact shape of the different surfaces. I wouldn't be surprised if there was a low spot to trap the end of the spring, but I don't know that there is. Still, the coil spring is flexible and should give a little on side to side motion when you pull the cylinder lock off its stud, so I doubt that would be hang up in your case.

Keep the faith. You'll get this fixed.

DCWilson · #10 03-20-2013, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregt1

Hey David can you tell if there was a seperate lever riding on the cylinder stop? It looks like one sticking out of the trigger, RT>side.

The arm on the trigger engages the small boss on the side of the cylinder lock. That's the system in these early guns for forcing the lock to disengage the cylinder on cocking or DA trigger pull while the hand advances the cylinder to the next position. Towards the end of the rearward trigger motion, the arm on the trigger slides out of contact with the boss and disengages before cocking or trigger pull is complete, allowing the lock to spring back up and engage the next notch in the cylinder. There is no separate lever.

gregt1 · #11 03-20-2013, 06:36 PM

awesome help!!!
thank you again.

gregt1 · #12 03-21-2013, 11:44 PM

David, I just cant thank you enough for the help getting my 1902 1st repaired and running. the cylinder stop was stuck and rusted . without your encouragement to persue I wouldent have gone any further. It was rusted to the piont that the detent was stuck so thew plunger wouldent work . when I read your reply I decided to use alittle gentle nudge to free the cyl stop and now I have a wonderful working gun. thanks

DCWilson · #13 03-22-2013, 05:11 AM

Excellent news! Shoot it in good health. (But avoid +P ammo. And I would avoid even the hotter modern standard loads. I shoot only 148 gr wadcutter match loads in my older .38s. Similar handloads would of couse be OK as well.)

H Richard · #14 03-22-2013, 10:57 AM

I have an 1899, with nearly identical inards. The first time I disassembled it Mike Prewier (?SP) gave me several hints on how to disassemble it. A short wooden dowel rod to wedge in to hold the trigger return spring down, after removing the mainspring is the "third hand" you need to remove the hammer & Trigger which gives free access to the cylinder lock & spring. I saved his instructions, takes a couple pages in Word, so if that could help you, PM me and I'll email to you. (Anyone know when the reply notification is going to be working again?)