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03-15-2013, 03:47 PM
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My dads S&W 38 Special CTG
Cleaning out the attic today and ran across dad's old 38. He carried it in WWII. Was an engineer officer and according to him they didn't have enough 1911s so they issued revolvers. It has plain walnut grips and a lanyard loop on the butt end. The serial number is v141xxx. Can anyone give me some history?
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03-15-2013, 03:59 PM
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Welcome! You almost certainly have a .38 Special Victory Model with a 4" barrel, which as you know was a substitute handgun for the 1911A1 during WW II. Somewhere around 1 million similar guns were made from 1941-1945, in .38 S&W for the Commonwealth nations and .38 Special for the US.
Are there interesting war stories behind it? Hope this is helpful.
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03-15-2013, 04:10 PM
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Here is another writeup I did some time ago about these revolvers: Pre-Victory and Victory Model Timeline
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03-15-2013, 04:38 PM
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Thanks to both of you for the reply's and information. Oddly this one has no property mark but I do know it was issued.
Dad landed in Europe a month after D-day and was in the headquarters company of an engineer battalion. After the CO caught him smooching with a WAC stenographer, who happened to be the CO's girlfriend, he got transfered to an all black dump truck company that needed an XO. He finished up the tour with this posting and was waiting in Marseilles to start shipping the company to the Pacific when the A bomb was dropped on Hiroshima. He says everything stopped right then for a couple of weeks while they decided what to do with them. Eventually they went back to the states and the company was deactivated. Dad ended up in the Philippines after the war finished. He was considering staying in but decided to go back to college instead.
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03-15-2013, 04:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RodGD
Thanks to both of you for the reply's and information. Oddly this one has no property mark but I do know it was issued.
Dad landed in Europe a month after D-day and was in the headquarters company of an engineer battalion. After the CO caught him smooching with a WAC stenographer, who happened to be the CO's girlfriend, he got transfered to an all black dump truck company that needed an XO. He finished up the tour with this posting and was waiting in Marseilles to start shipping the company to the Pacific when the A bomb was dropped on Hiroshima. He says everything stopped right then for a couple of weeks while they decided what to do with them. Eventually they went back to the states and the company was deactivated. Dad ended up in the Philippines after the war finished. He was considering staying in but decided to go back to college instead.
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Regarding markings, you can find all sots of things. Who knows exactly what happened on the production/inspection lines under the pressure of wartime production? But I would think there would be some markings somewhere on your gun. Those destined for stateside civilian use were normally unmarked when they left the factory, but anything that went out the door for military use (US or British) would normally have a "United States Property", "U. S. Property" or Navy marking on it, along with inspector initials and the ordnance bomb, all of which are described in my earlier reference. You may want to get a factory letter ($50) to find out where yours was shipped, and that might well tell the tale.
By the way, remove the grip panels and see if anything is stamped on the backs.
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03-15-2013, 07:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DWalt
Regarding markings, you can find all sots of things. Who knows exactly what happened on the production/inspection lines under the pressure of wartime production? But I would think there would be some markings somewhere on your gun. Those destined for stateside civilian use were normally unmarked when they left the factory, but anything that went out the door for military use (US or British) would normally have a "United States Property", "U. S. Property" or Navy marking on it, along with inspector initials and the ordnance bomb, all of which are described in my earlier reference. You may want to get a factory letter ($50) to find out where yours was shipped, and that might well tell the tale.
By the way, remove the grip panels and see if anything is stamped on the backs.
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I have to correct myself now as to the exact provenance of dad's pistol. I just now talked to him and he bought it from a gun shop in Philadelphia before he sailed for Europe. So that's why no property stamp. He recalls he paid $50 for it.
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03-15-2013, 10:23 PM
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"I have to correct myself now as to the exact provenance of dad's pistol. I just now talked to him and he bought it from a gun shop in Philadelphia before he sailed for Europe. So that's why no property stamp. He recalls he paid $50 for it."
Well, I would surmise that this revolver was once issued to a defense related security guard that happened to "lose" it, as I don't believe any of the Victory revolvers were on the open market during WW II.
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03-15-2013, 11:35 PM
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Actually, that's not so bad. In equivalent condition, the wartime V-models for civilian use are considered more desirable than the military versions, as there are considerably fewer of them in circulation.
I agree with the prior assessment. It was very difficult for most private individuals to purchase new guns and ammunition during WWII, as virtually all production was directed toward military and essential civilian uses, not for sport shooters or hunters. So your father's revolver was likely sold to someone who sold to someone else, etc., by some cop or plant guard who needed money for something or other.
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03-21-2013, 10:58 PM
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Pictures
Here's some pictures of my dad's old Victory. As you can see it's got some freckles. I'm hoping they will diminish with cleaning. Oh in response to DWalt, the right grip has the SN stamped on the backside.
Last edited by RodGD; 03-21-2013 at 11:17 PM.
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03-21-2013, 11:46 PM
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There is a property stamp on your gun. Your gun has the ordnance bomb stamp, signifying military inspection and acceptance, on the butt, which is not normally seen on a Defense Supply Comm. gun. It is most likely that it is a military issued gun. I suspect your Dad is disremembering where he got the gun. That's not to disrespect your Dad, but he and I are about the same age and I'm not sure I can remember exactly where I got a gun I acquired 70+ years ago. He may have bought a gun in Philly before he embarked for Europe, but I doubt it was this one. Does he have a receipt from the gun store for this gun? No real gun store would have had an obvious military revolver for sale, in wartime. Since he was already in the military, he would have been issued a sidearm as an Engineer officer, either a Victory Model or a Model 1911. Ask him what he did with his issued sidearm? I have a good friend who was also at Marseilles at the time your Dad was there. He said there was a pile of small arms, of all kinds, about two stories high, where all personnel were required to toss their weapons, preparatory to shipping out to the US. MP's went through all duffle bags, foot lockers, etc. are removed any weapons they found. My friend lost a nice batch of Lugers, along with his .45 Auto. Officers could retain one sidearm for the trip home, so your Dad could have brought back his Victory Model and then "forgot" to turn it in when he got to the US.
A factory letter will tell you where the gun was originally shipped by S&W. Ed.
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03-22-2013, 12:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by opoefc
There is a property stamp............... where the gun was originally shipped by S&W. Ed.
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Well, dad's old but still sharp as a tack so I'm lending great creedence to what he says. I am going to spring for the factory letter as my curiosity has been piqued.
He actually brought two sidearms back from Europe. The other was a Roth Steyr M1907. He says he got it from a guy in a unit that was tasked with disarming the German public. They'd go door to door collecting weapons or so he was told. Here's a picture.
Last edited by RodGD; 03-22-2013 at 12:13 AM.
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03-22-2013, 03:37 AM
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The Roth-Steyr is a very interesting pistol, used in Europe and also Chile. You can still find ammunition for it (9mm Steyr) if you look hard enough, but reloading is easier. New brass that will work in it is still available from Starline. You may wish to do some internet research about it.
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03-22-2013, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DWalt
The Roth-Steyr is a very interesting pistol, used in Europe and also Chile. You can still find ammunition for it (9mm Steyr) if you look hard enough, but reloading is easier. New brass that will work in it is still available from Starline. You may wish to do some internet research about it.
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A number of years ago I acquired some ammunition for the Roth, actually it's 8mm,
however I've never fired it. Recently I saw some for sale on the internet. I should buy more in light of the current insanity, it's never going to get any easier to find.
What I would really like to find is a stripper clip for this pistol. I did a search some time ago and the only lead I found turned out to be a dead end. I'm sure there were tens of thousands made, but where they are, who knows.
Last edited by RodGD; 03-22-2013 at 07:45 AM.
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