I have a dilemma in that I inherited a pre-war outdoorsman s/n 657xxx. All references show outdoorsmans to have 6 " barrels. Mine is 4". Professional gunsmiths say that there is no indication this gun was ever re-barrelled. The letters, numbers etc on the barrel are identical to a six inch. No reference in the S&W Guide. A factory letter will tell me what barrel this was shipped with (for $50) but it will not say if it was a custom gun or part of a very short run. Does anyone know if S&W ever did a factory run of 4" barrels in the K-22 Outdoorsman pre-war series?

Post some good clear pictures of your gun on here from all
sides/angles and the more "experienced" members will be
glad to help you out. P.S. i am not one of those....haha

Chuck

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They hold no Quarter

Welcome! Anything is possible with S & W, especially with special orders. There was no regular production pre-war 4" K-22.

With that said, there would be little obvious evidence of a skilled aftermarket barrel replacement or shortening, but someone here may be able to offer an opinion if you can post photos. Left and right sides of the entire gun, closeups of the barrel stampings including the barrel flat above the ejector rod, and of the muzzle area. Hope this is helpful.

PS What Chuck said

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

I for one would love to see some photos - the more the better:

Front of Barrel (several angles)
Barrel flat (where SN will be - look for signs on rework)
Sides of barrel.
Of course the whole gun, both left and right side.
Grip frame without the grips.
SN on bottom of grip frame to check for "*"
And any more photos that you may want to post.

Here is a page from the K-22 Outdorsman's Brochure:



Please note that the barrel length is 6 inches only. But as noted above, with S&W you can never say never. They made all sorts of one-off's - some of which are very cool.

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Richard
Engraved S&W fan

Welcome to the forum. I have to disagree with that statement. Although that may be a possible outcome, it's not true overall. I've seen too many letters to the contrary. This is one case where the $50 investment has potential to substantially increase the value and rarity of your gun.

In addition, it's the first step for more thorough documentation of the factory history of your gun. You happen to be fortunate in the fact that The Smith & Wesson Historical Foundation (SWHF) has digitized and indexed records for the years, 1932-1941, almost all the years that your gun was produced! So if there is more to know with regard to the factory, it can be found.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-w...al-foundation/

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Jim
S&WCA #819

This is one case where the $50 investment has potential to substantially increase the value and rarity of your gun.

Yes Indeed...Post some pictures.... get a consensus. Then maybe a letter if all looks good

Hi
I only know of one or two that have showed up. Ed Mcgivern had one but I don't know if it was shipped that way or if the factory did it for him after it was shipped.
I agree you need a letter and a search of the SWHF but you need a ship date to search the SWHF. I think Mike Priwer mite have one.
Jim Fisher

I would be taking pictures and sending in a letter to Roy. Then exercising my patience over the next three months waiting for a reply. I'm waiting on one now to confirm id one of my # 1 1/2's 32 Single Actions is correct with a 4" barrel, (only 200 made). Your K22 would be a landmark find, one of a kind.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

Mikepriwer's K32 4" models:

4-inch K-32 Targets

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Jim,
Interesting you would mention McGivern. My grandfather used to know him. We are originally from Lewistown MT where he set his famous glass ball fast shoot record. Thanks for comments-will try to get photos-(not too bright with computer photos etc.)

The barrel is definitely not a cut down job. Has the proper taper, sight attachment, and marking spacings. Not saying that it couldn't be a "kit gun" barrel or similar model. I just don't know the models well enough without a side by side comparison. I am a semi-pro machinist myself and if it was a post factory job it was a magnificent. Thanks for comment. Check back I will try to get photos. May have to wait for my son to come visit---he's the expert

The fact that your family is from Lewistown, MT . . . and your grandfather knew Ed McGivern . . . makes us all that much more anxious to see pictures. That could be one very special and unique K-22 Outdoorsman your have there.

Just a comment on barrel markings . . . they don't always reveal a cut barrel. Here is a post-war K-22 Masterpiece that I had Bowen Classic Arms cut to 5" and attach a ramp front sight. The barrel markings would still appear centered even if I had it cut to 4" . . . only a factory letter would reveal this K-22 left the factory as a 6".

Thanks Alan,
All info is good. Appreciate the encouragement. I will request a letter on this gun and get some photos posted (as soon as I figure out how)

Thanks for the comment and I don't dispute anything you said at all but what fascinates me is that this is a round, non-ribbed barrel that has the front sight base machined in one piece with the tapered barrel. So my thought is--right or wrong--the front couldn't have been cut back (without re-welding and extensive meticulous machine work, in which case why not just buy a K-22 Masterpiece) and the back of the barrel still properly fits the frame. Just Weird?

Here are five photos of the gun in question in my original thread. Don't know how these will turn out. Maxxed out this reply message. Will send mor photos in another reply note.2012 - 8 and 9 270.jpg

2012 - 8 and 9 271.jpg

2012 - 8 and 9 272.jpg

2012 - 8 and 9 273.jpg

2012 - 8 and 9 274.jpg

Hey, I really like it and it looks right. I hope it is. What is the history of this gun as far as you know of? Thanks for sharing it. Kyle

More photos

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Letter it and let us know what the results are. Its a neat lookin gun. We posted at the same time. It looks in good cond. also. Larry

Sorry forgot to attach last p2012 - 8 and 9 275.jpg

2012 - 8 and 9 276.jpg

2012 - 8 and 9 277.jpg

2012 - 8 and 9 278.jpg

2012 - 8 and 9 279.jpghotos. Am re sending

2012 - 8 and 9 280.jpg

2012 - 8 and 9 281.jpg

Last two photos. Sorry this was a little messy but getting better with the help of my new friends on the forum

The "diamond" on the barrel flat and no serial number there doesn't bode well. Nor does the .22 Long Rifle CTG. markings without the + markings. It looks to me as though the barrel at least has been refinished. The front sight pin looks large.

Still a very cool gun...

First tip I notice is a diamond on the bottom of the barrel which indicates a factory replaced part. Nice photos too but the most important one is left out; do you have a shot of the left hand side of the grip frame. That's where the key info would be if there is any, like a star and a date.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

The recessed brass medalion stocks are nice, but are typically associated with guns from a much earlier period before WW1. Are they numbered to the gun?

The left side of the grip frame is completely bare except for a small "s" stamped near the grip pin.

Could be rarest of rare in K-22's. Right when we thought we'de seen it all, at least most of it.
You did a great job of posting pix, especially for someone who claims to be new to it! Looking forward to what the pro's have to say about the lack of serial # under the barrel. Congratulations!

one grip is serial numbered to the gun---in pencil.

The stocks have sunken gold medallions from the pre 1920 era. Stocks are 3d in pencil prior to c.1929 and stamped after that and during the period this gun should have been produced.

The small logo on the left side of frame indicates pre c.1937 production.

Whatever it turns out to be, it's a gorgeous gun and a very rare pre war "Combat Outdoorsman"! But there's a story behind it that I suspect is not too difficult to glean from the SWHF files following acquisition of a factory letter.

The next pre war K22 O I find with a bulged barrel will become a 4".

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Yeah the barrel finish does not look to match the rest of the gun. If S&W replaced the barrel would they let that go? Also if they did it, hence the diamond, could it be right with no frame markings? Like everyone says anything could have happened at the factory, cant say for sure one way or the other without the letter.

Talk about a puzzle!

The first thing I saw was that the barrel isn't serial numbered and there is a factory rework mark. Low and behold the grips number to the gun (great lookin grips) WOW.

Spend the $50 on the factory letter and please keep us posted.

What an awesome gun!!!

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George Jamison

I agree with the above observations . . . except I believe the caliber markings are correct. My K-22 Outdoorsman s/n 654997 is marked 22 Long Rifle CTG . . . without symbols.

In addition to the items already mentioned, the patent markings on the top of the barrel near the front sight base appear to be blurred. All lead me to believe the barrel length is not factory original . . . but are very well done.

While this Outdoorsman is as unique and neat as they come, we're all anxious to learn more about its provenance . . . particularly if Ed McGivern may have been involved. Here's hoping a factory historical letter will give us clues.

Russ

I believe the diamond stamped on the underside of the barrel (in the flat area) indicates the original barrel was replaced by S&W.

Bill

What rimfire model revolver did the four inch barrel come from?

Is this a "one off" from the factory, or a left over from an earlier time?

I've not seen a tapered 22 cal barrel like that before.

GF

This is my 4" K-22. It letters as the 20th K-22 made. It was presented to a Springfield MA Police Officer. I will be bringing it to KC. It letters as having a 6" barrel, and like yours has a diamond on the barrel.

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Don Mundell

Is the front sight base forged with the barrel or brazed on?

While we only have photos to go by, they are clear enough. Although there seems to be a seam showing between base and barrel in the left side view, I'm sure it isn't.

The base clearly appears forged one piece with the barrel. When I compare it to several of my pre war Smiths the base has the 4 corner web-like-flares that blend into and extend onto the barrel surface. These flares are impossible to retain or reproduce when re-attaching a base to a barrel.

Can't be a Kit Gun barrel, they had a smaller diameter thread.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

I'm convinced your gun was a special order. The 4" barrel was most likely installed on a new gun before it was shipped, hence the lack of a rework date stamped on the grip frame. If that was the case, it's more likely to be reflected in the letter IMO. Rework is never listed in the letter.

The missing barrel s/# stamping is a bit unusual, but the greatest consistency with S&W firearms is their lack of complete consistency.

The pre 1920 medallions in the stocks with penciled s/# are more anomalies. If indeed this was a special order gun, the earlier medallions may have been requested. Assuming it was a special ordered and special handled gun, it may explain the missing barrel s/n and missing stamped s/# on the stocks. Also the stocks could have been added later and the matching s/# re-penciled on the right stock.

This gun begs a factory letter!

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Jim
S&WCA #819

There were a lot of spare parts made in non-standard configurations for model variations that never came about. They were disposed of by the factory as obsolete years ago. I have several machined and stamped but unpolished and unblued barrels. Some of these include post-war configuration non-ribbed 6" I-frame barrels, a K frame 2" M&P .32 Long, some .38/44 Heavy Duty barrels in various configurations that were never produced. Popperts Parts still has a bunch of misc. strange configuration non-standard spares. They list some of them on Gunbroker from time to time.

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Chris
SWCA #2243 SWHF #292

Actually the markings are very clear, just lousey photography. Barrel is not as highly polished as rest of gun. Thought I would confirm that for the rest of you folks. Doesn't show up as well as hoped in the photos.

A clarification on the grips. I didn't intend to mis lead--just careless. The grip IS numbered in pencil BUT after closer examination (the writing is hard to decipher because of years of gun oil), the number appears to be 65772. Which would indeed place them to a much earlier production year. Thanks to everyone for the heads up--you know your stuff!

Just one last quick comment. This is the only outdoorsman I have ever held so bear with me but, the action on this gun is the most flawlessly smooth action I have EVER seen. I have shot many different types of revolvers, including different series of Colt Pythons and believe me---NOTHING compares. I guess this is why I am trying to find out as much as I can. I really love this little gun.

That would line up with a .32/20 Military & Police, I think. The .38 Special would have had a higher number than this well before 1910.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Nice! A very special gun. 20th made? Awesome

Hi
the question came up about where the barrel could have came from.
Smith & Wesson made 4 inch Targets in 38 Special I have one that was made for
a forman in the factory that letters that way. There were also 32 Cal Targets made
in the 1912 thru 1916. All of these barrel would have been forged with out being Bored for a Caliber and I am sure smith did not only make 10 or 12 there made a hundred or more.
So these barrels exist as unfinished and could be completed as any caliber.
Just my idea as to how these exist.
Jim Fisher.

Was reading through this thread again, any updates, letter?

Such a cool config!

When in doubt, ask for a letter. It might answer your questions.

I had what I thought was a very early Combat Masterpiece. Roy Jinks verified it's being manufactured as a Target Masterpiece which was factory-modified into the Combat Masterpiece.

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Frosty
S&WCA # 2816

Finally getting back. Got letter on gun. 1937 six inch barrel. As to questions on barrel length. S&W made four inch barrels for the M&P frame. None in 22. However they made blank barrels intended for other caliber a but would special drill and rifle for 22 on request. Took this gun to a couple of experts who own outdoorsmans. Consensus is this action has been reworked and polished probably when the gun was rebarrelled. Likely barrel was special made by S&W and sent to gunsmith.

Found the S&W letter. Gun was shipped with six inch barrel on June 24, 1936 to Burl Sons Co. In Detroit MI. Grips were checkered walnut but no mention was made about the grips in the photos I sent in. Only comment about the barrel was "added later". Didn't say if done by factory or elsewhere.

HI
Ed Mcgivern had one of the first K-22 outdoors man that shipped in 1931
he returned it to the factory and had a 4 inch barrel installed this is documented on letters back and forth between Ed and Douglas wesson.
This gun is in eds book and he used it to shoot a large amount of rounds.
The gun was sent back to the factory and checked for accuracy and returned to Ed with the targets showing excellent accuracy.
I displayed the gun at the NRA in 2015 and it won a silver metal.
There are a couple more 4 inch that exist but they will not letter
because these types of rework are not in the shipping records.
The only way they can be documented is by letters back and forth tothe factory.
Your gun if it was done by the factory would have a serial number
on the barrel that matches the frame number.
Your gun was done by a gunsmith that ordered the barrel as parts from the factory.
I hope this helps. You mite have some luck with the SWHF if the factory
furnished the barrel to a gunsmith but this is a long shot.
Jim Fisher