New member looking for id on 38 spec.

[Busyb]

I just got a Smith & Wesson 38 special for my husband. It is supposed to be an antique but we are quite novice in this area. The serial number is 242072 on the butt and cylinder. One side of the barrel has 38 S&W Special CTG. It has beautiful engraving all over it and some sort of horn or bone grips. I will attempt to add pictures. Thanks in advance for any info that you can provide.

[Hondo44]

Welcome to the forum! It's beautiful; a 38 Military and Police Mod of 1905 - 4th change from c. 1915. I don't believe the engraving, although beautiful, is factory. It has bone stocks.

[Art Doc]

You got this for your husband? Good trade.

Seriously, though. I think it's a Military & Police Model of 1905 (early 4th Change) that somebody fancied up a bit. Darn near 100 years old.

[DCWilson]

I agree -- nice specimen.

To be precise, that gun is not an antique as the Federal Government defines firearms. An antique is a gun manufactured before 1898. This 1914-1915 revolver would fall into the group that the Feds classify under the name "Curio & Relic." Yeah, it sounds a little patronizing, but the labels help determine how easy or difficult it will be to buy a particular firearm depending on the state in which you live.

[KEN L]

From your pics the "stag" grips appear to be imitation. They have a plastic look to them.

[Hondo44]

Originally Posted by KEN L

From your pics the "stag" grips appear to be imitation. They have a plastic look to them.

Ken,
They are bone, post #2; genuine bone, 'jigged' and dyed to resemble genuine India sambar stag.

[mikepriwer]

Does this gun still have the three-line patent date roll markings on the right side
of the barrel, or is it a two-line roll marking on the top of the barrel ?

Mike Priwer

[long colt frazier]

Welcome to the forum busyb. As for your s&w I am speechless.
Mark

[Busyb]

The lady that I bought it from said that it was genuine stag grips and that her stepdad was a local gunsmith and collector.

[Busyb]

It has three rows of info/patent dates on the right side of the barrel.

[Busyb]

Can anyone give me an approximate value of this gun. I hope that I didn't over pay for it.

[Hondo44]

Originally Posted by Busyb

The lady that I bought it from said that it was genuine stag grips and that her stepdad was a local gunsmith and collector.

It's a common misconception. The jigged bone was very common in the old days. Sambar Stag looks like this and the coloring can be seen as the rough and unshiny remnants of the velvet that can be scraped off with a fingernail:




Many collectors and gunsmiths know guns well but not Sambar Stag from jigged bone.

[Hondo44]

Originally Posted by Busyb

Can anyone give me an approximate value of this gun. I hope that I didn't over pay for it.

That's a tough one and very subjective for something that's one-of-a-kind. I think $800 to $1000 is in the ball park. Based mostly on the buyer's desire for the gun.

[DWalt]

The problem is assessing the value contributed by the engraving and the grips. Depending upon condition, the gun itself would be in the $300-500 range. But the additional value of the engraving would be contingent upon who did the engraving (factory, someone famous, or someone unknown) and its execution and artistic merit. And that's not possible to assess based only upon your pictures. It could run from nothing to thousands. The $800-1000 earlier estimate is at least reasonable, but it could well be less or more.

[quinn]

busyb, FWIW, my most prized gun has jigged bone grips very similar to the grips on your husband's gun. My son bought a 1920's vintage S&W, I think just to get a similar set of grips. They, and the gun are quite lovely. Your husband should be quite pleased.

[Busyb]

Hopefully better pictures. Thanks for all the help.

[Hondo44]

Busyb,
That's a big improvement, thx. That appears to be done with an electric pencil, not true engraving per se. Then "inked" over with gold ink. You can see the screw head slots are filled with the gold ink. Indicative of some talented work from south of the border.

[mikepriwer]

Its not factory engraving, nor is it period engraving. I have no idea who did the
engraving, nor when it was done, but I would guess its something from the 1960's
to 1970's . And without a factory letter, we don't know if there was anything
significant in its provenance.

Given the unknowns as I mention above, and probably without ever knowing the
answers to these unknowns, the value is more-less in the eyes of the beholder.
To give you an idea of what I mean, to me, this gun would be worth a lot more
if it were in , say, 95% original blue condition than it is now. It may be that the
gun was really worn, and some previous owner spent a few hundred dollars to have
it decorated and then refinished. Or, maybe some previous owner did the decoration
himself.

Either way, without knowing who did the engraving, it wouldn't add anything to the
value of the gun for me. That's just me , and maybe someone else might feel very
differently about it. This is what I meant by the value being in the eyes of the
beholder. On the other hand, if it were a well-known engraver, then its a whole
different story.

As the gun stands now, for me, the best part of it is the roll markings on the side
of the barrel. They were moved back to the top of the barrel about a year later,
so the gun has a bit of collector interest because of this.

I'd value the gun at something in the range of $400 to $500 .

Mike Priwer

[824tsv]

I think it's lovely and would be overjoyed to receive that from my spouse.

[DCWilson]

I have no idea about the identity of the specific engraver who did this work, but I am going to suggest that he was familiar with the work of Orville Kuhl. I see some similar patterns and motifs in this gun that appear now and again in Kuhl's known work -- the chained dots outlining hard edges, the complex vine, the flower with striations on its five petals, even the eradication of the S&W trademark while keeping its basic circular shape as an element of the design.

There are differences in technique, so I'm not saying this could be a Kuhl gun. Orville Kuhl was a very sculptural engraver, working above the engraving surface as well as in and below it. Many of his guns feature embossed gold and silver figures in a technique that is quite different from the approach taken on this gun.

There is no small amount of skill and control displayed in the work on this gun. It is an interesting piece, and I hope you can find out more about it.

A few Kuhl guns have been posted in this forum over the years. A search will turn them up if you want to see what he was capable of and where the engraver of this gun seems to have taken some inspiration.

[DWalt]

That certainly is unusual and very striking engraving. As a first impression, I felt it might be Mexican, but I know very little about engraving styles. There are collectors who have great expertise regarding engraving and engravers, and hopefully several of them may be able to provide more concrete opinions.

[shawn mccarver]

Originally Posted by SaxonPig

You got this for your husband? Good trade.

That is the first post today that has made me laugh out loud. Good show!

[Busyb]

Those are beautiful guns.