Since I can't travel to the convention next weekend (sorry Bill, work calls as I suspected), I have a question for you folks to consider and give me some thoughts on why.

The fundamental question is why did the Colt Super 38 outsell the 38/44's by a factor of 3 to 1 for the Heavy Duties and 2 to 1 for all of the 38/44's?

First off, consider the history. The Colt 38 Super 1911 came out in 1929 and sold about 37,000 units by 1941. The 38/44 Heavy Duty came out in 1930 and sold about 11,000 by 1941. Even if we add in the roughly 4700 38/44 Outdoorsman's, the Colt 38 Super in 1911 outsold my beloved 38/44's by two to one.

Why?

Ballistics of a 130 at 1300 (38 Super) vs. 150 at 1150 (38/44HS)?
More rounds and quicker reloads?
Perceived more reliable?
Easier to carry?
More accurate? (highly doubtful in my opinion)

Or something else?

Thoughts? Comments? Insights?

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SWCA 1646

I would suspect those are your answers.

Dave

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RSVN '69-'71
PCSD (Ret)

Might have had something to do with the advertised ability of the super to penetrate automobiles of the bad guys by police.
Sensationalism sells.

The 38/44 cartridge answered the penetration issue but I think the only way to answer the question is to know how many Colts were exported. If large numbers of Colts were exported and the ratio comes down to 1 to 1, then like Fords and Chevrolets, police departments probably stayed with what they were previously using. I don't know how much a Colt 38 Super cost but that could be a reason if they were cheaper than a Heavy Duty.
Bill

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38-44heavyduty.com

It's not apples to apples really.

The Colt 1911 was not a typical cop gun. Nor was a Colt 1911 a typical target gun.

Revolvers were typical cop guns. The 38/44 was also replaced around 1935 by the Registered Magnum, so again I think comparisons are sketchy at best between these wildly different firearms. I don't think the majority of 38 / 44 were sold to cops. Cops generally bought or were furnished smaller K frame 38 Specials. Even the Registered Magnum is not really a typical cop gun. It's just too big for an average guy of the 1930's to carry all day.

I love Colt 1911 guns and own several, but I am under no illusion that they were a competitor with a big N frame 38 Special.

Well,
You will find that the 38/44 Heavy Duty and Outdoorsman were not replaced by the Registered Magnum. In fact, the Heavy Duty sold more than any other N frame in the 1930-40 time frame. There were numerous PDs that bought the HD, in fact the British Columbia PD bought well over 100 of them. Lot's of individuals also bought them too.

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38-44heavyduty.com

I do not know, but here are some possible reasons.

The 1911 is simply easier to shoot. The recoiling slide and recoil spring absorb lots of the recoil. The trigger is lighter and easier than a DA revolver.

Before WWII, it could be successfully argued that Colts were better, or at least so perceived, than S&Ws. The 1911s came home with a good reputation from WWI.

The 1911 is flatter and easier to carry, fits the hand better without the need for adapters or custom grips.

The 1911 spare ammo carries in magazines instead of loose rounds in the pocket or loops or boxes on the belt. The 1911 can be reloaded faster with spare magazines than the revolver with loose rounds.

People did not know as much about ballistics then as they do now, and it was only becoming known in the early 20th century that semi wadcutter Keith type bullets did better in tissue than ball ammo.

Like now, to some extent, people heard about this new mysterious caliber and gun through ad hype and saw pistols purchased by FBI agents and others, and people followed suit.

My guess is that it was a combination of the Colt's reputation from WWI and with LE of the era, ad hype and the perception that this new high velocity cartridge could do anything. Some of Colt's ads were, to say the least, pretty optimistic about the capabilities of this cartridge. There is one ad I have seen which implies that the 38 Super will take down bears or any game in North America. It might, but it would clearly not be the first choice of anyone.

I suspect part of the mystique of the 38 Super in 1929 falls into the same smoke and mirrors category that the more recent .357 SIG cartridge occupies. Essentially a 9mm +P+, but thought to be, by some, the best thing since sliced bread. In retrospect, why anyone needed more than the 1911 in .45 ACP, which already existed is a matter of marketing, best understood by the people who design such things.

There has been a sort of schizophrenia going on since before 1900 about .45 versus 38 or calibers in the 9mm range. We had a .45, went to a 38, found it to be not up to par, went back to the .45, then Colt needed a more penetrative caliber for the gangster era, so back to the 38, then back to the 9mm and then to the .40, etc. We seem, as a society to know intrinsically that the .45 is the answer, but we want smaller, lighter, less recoil, higher capacity, etc.

All of that accounts, to some extent or another for the 38 Super. By the way, the caliber, now headspaced on the case mouth, and with proper loads, would be just as good as the 9mm +P+, or maybe even a little better today. Unfortunately, the length of the case makes a double stack magazine pretty much a no go, and since that seems important to many people, we just do not get much load development or new pistols in this fine caliber.

Can you post or point to such an ad? I'm not aware that Colt advertised any such thing. The Super .38 was primarily promoted as a weapon for big game hunters and most of the ads featured a bear or a moose or a crocodile.

It is not directly responsive to the question but here is an article that some may find interesting: http://historicalgmen.squarespace.co...0automatic.pdf

Regards,
Kevin Williams

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Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

Kevin's article is superb and has one of the ads mentioned. "A Real He Man Gun," and the cartridge is billed as suitable for taking down big game. A bear is pictured. J. Edgar Hoover's 38 Super is also pictured.

Great article Kevin!
Bill

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38-44heavyduty.com

All of the sudden, the article in the link is not there...???

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Richard
Engraved S&W fan

Richard, look to the right and you will find the article listed and it will link you to it.
Bill

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38-44heavyduty.com

Quote from the article:
"The power and the popularity of Colt’s Super .38 prompted Smith & Wesson to load a hotter .38 Special cartridge and develop the .38/.44 Heavy Duty revolver. They followed up in 1935 with the introduction of the .357 Magnum revolver, which fired the first handgun cartridge to eclipse the power of the Super .38."

I feel it had as much to do with the semi auto platform as the "bling" of the cartridge. So a combination of appeal which covers these three points that you mentioned:

Ballistics of a 130 at 1300 (38 Super) vs. 150 at 1150 (38/44HS)?
More rounds and quicker reloads?
Easier to carry?

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Jim
S&WCA #819

I wonder if the exports had something to do with the popularity of the Colt super 38.

In some countries, 'military' calibers (e.g. 45 acp) were prohibited for civilians. The 38 super was very popular in Mexico for that reason. It was the only way a civilian could legally possess a 1911. The 45 was the military sidearm in Mexico.

I don't know that Colt used that in their advertisments, but it is something I remember reading about many times as a reason it was a big draw during the gangster era...
The cartridge was designed for use in the M1911 pistol and was capable of penetrating the body armor and automobile bodies of the time.[4] When the .357 Magnum was introduced in 1934, this advantage of the .38 Super was no-longer enough to lure police departments and officers from the traditional revolver.

“Police and Sheriff’s are showing keen interest in the Colt Super .38 – due to its hard-hitting power, its fast action and its large capacity magazine. For riot cars, special duty and mounted service, you can’t beat the Super .38 Automatic. The Super .38 shoots an unusually powerful cartridge and its bullet will go through gas tanks and automobile bodies like nothing at all.” Date unknown.

I would say three reasons:

1. Familiarity of many of the time with the Model 1911 used in WWI
2. Greater magazine capacity and faster reloading
3. Potent ballistics

To me, it's a mystery why Colt did not come out with a Government Model pistol in .38 Super (actually called Super .38 at the time) much earlier than it did. It would have been extremely easy to adapt the Model 1911 platform to .38. And the .38 Super cartridge was simply a more heavily loaded version of the .38 ACP which itself pre-dated the .45 ACP.

Thanks a bunch for the replies.

I have heard a bunch about not being able to own military calibers in other countries thus leading to the export demand, but when did that start? Pre-WWII? I would have guessed after.

Excellent article to Kevin!

I was thinking about the RM point. If we throw all of the 357 Magnums into the mix the numbers go about 37000 to the super and about 22,000 to the 38/44+357 Mags. The 1911 is still beating the revolver by 1.5 to 1 (roughly).

My paradigm is that police "of the day" carried revolvers but maybe the 1911 was more prevalent than my perception?

My issue is prior to thinking about this in the shower and then looking up the actual details, I would have guessed the 38/44 and 357 Mag would have outsold the 1911 Super 38 by 3 to 5 or more to 1. I would never have guessed that it went the other way.

This makes me actually want to go buy a pre-war Super 38 and compare it head to head against the 38/44 HD's. While an expensive proposition, it would be fascinating to see how a devoted 38/44 fan like myself could do with a pre-war Super 38.

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SWCA 1646

Pre-war Colt GMs in.38 Super are tough to find and expensive when found. If you want something really unusual, try finding one fitted with the Swartz safety. There are some quite rare versions made up for sale to commercial airline pilots back in the 1930s.

I have no idea as to the split between LE sales and civilian sales of the .38 Super. I would guess most were sold to civilians.

In response to some of the questions raised:

1. Of the roughly 38,000 Super .38 pistols manufactured between 1929 and 1945, over 24,000 were shipped overseas or to the US Government. Of those, over 15,000 went to Mexico. Siam, Thailand, England and the Philippines bought quite a few. So, about 14,000 were sold domestically.

2. The Super .38 was never specifically advertised as a weapon for police use. It was primarily promoted as a big game killer. There were a few forward looking PD's that bought them, e.g. St. Louis (82) and Burlington, VT (56), but relatively few were sold to law enforcement. Colt's certainly welcomed police sales and did promote such use in their catalog copy.

4. When introduced the Super .38 retailed for $36.75. By 1941 the price was $44.75.

5. Contrary to popular belief, the so-called .38 Super cartridge did not really come about until well after the pistol. The Super .38 pistol was introduced in 1929. The ballistics of the .38 ACP cartridge varied a bit, depending on manufacturer but it wasn't until 1932 or 1933 that the .38 Super cartridge ballistics and nomenclature were standardized.

6. Colt's did not adapt the Government Model platform to shoot the .38 ACP cartridge earlier because they didn't see much demand for it. They were still selling the earlier Browning design pistols--the 1902 Military and the 1903 Pocket Hammer models. They did not want to cannibalize those sales. When popularity (and inventory) of those models waned, they brought out the Super .38 pistol.

7. As originally designed the Super .38 headspaced on the semi-rim of the cartridge and that made it fairly inaccurate.

The above is based on my own research and that of Doug Sheldon in his excellent book: Colt's Super .38, The Production History, from 1929 through 1971.

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Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

Kevin:

Great article and wonderful photos of some very cool guns...

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Richard
Engraved S&W fan

I had a Colt Super .38 Match Grade,, made about 1935-36. The action was wonderfully smooth and the workmanship was really excellent. But it wouldn't shoot for sour grapes.

I now believe that the headspacing on the semi-rim of the case was the issue. But I'd sold the gun in disgust before Jim Carmichel mentioned that matter in an article in Rifle or Handloader back in the 1970's.

A friend who later had a SIG-Sauer P-220 in .38 Super said it shot fine. I think SIG headspaced on the case mouth.

The .357 did not REPLACE the.38-44; it just offered an additional option. The .38-44's were made until about 1966, but few were sold by then.

Like most, I suppose, I figured that a M-27 or M-28 had about the same bulk but could also fire the Magnum load. So, why carry a less powerful gun that big?

Most, if not all, newer .38 Super guns have barrel chambers which headspace on the mouth. I have both a Colt GM and an EAA Witness in .38 Super, and both incorporate case mouth headspacing. And .38 Super replacement barrels with case mouth headspacing chambers for older GMs have been available for many years.

Regarding .38 Super ammunition, it is correct that for several years after introduction, it was pretty much the same as .38 ACP. And some early .38 Super ammunition boxes even had a label legend stating that it could be used in both GM pistols and the earlier .38 ACP pistols. The exact situation of .38 Super vs. .38 ACP ammunition in the early years is unclear.

I cannot say what was in the mind of Colt's marketing staff in keeping any of the older .38 ACP pistols alive after the Model 1911 had been perfected. The mechanical designs of those were unquestionably inferior to the Model 1911's, and any motives for keeping them in Colt's lineup are highly questionable, given the Model 1911's clear superiority. Plus it would have greatly modernized, simplified, and rationalized their product line.

I think Kevin hit the nail on the head when he pointed out above that 24,000 were exported. I am sure some 38/44's were exported but I have not heard of anywhere near that high of a percentage.


So if we knock 24,000 off the 37,000 that leaves about 13,000 Super 38's sold domestically vs. the roughly 11,000 38/44 HD's and roughly 4700 38/44 OD's along with roughly 6,000 357 Magnums.

Given that new information then the manufacturers were almost at parity in terms of production. I am sure some percentage of the S&W's were shipped out of the country but for my purposes they are about the same.

Also I agree with Kevin's point that the 38 Super did not get to be very "super" until about 1932. It was essentially the 38 auto ballistics early on, but given an FMJ it would do pretty good on a car or hard object.

More accurately then the timeline of events went like this:
1929 the Super 38 comes out with roughly 130 @ 1190 ballistics.
1930 the 38/44 comes out with 150 @1150 ballistics (for the FMJ's).
1932 the Super moves up to 130 @ 1300 ballistics
1935 the 357 Magnum comes out at 158 @1500 ballistics

Regarding the accuracy, I have read that the Super 38 Match guns were pretty accurate. Has any one tested one and can comment? I know my Les Baer's are exceptionally accurate, but can someone comment on the average pre-war Super 38?

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SWCA 1646

If S&W would have converted the 38/44 to full-auto, it might have sold better

One has to recall some differences in assignments and preferences, too, along with the realities of the time.

Some significant # of LE at the time would have been WWI vets, and comfortable with the 1911 pattern pistol. The 1911 had been by far the best ergonomics of any fighting gun, and arguably still does. The cops who moved to the 1911 were often the hardcore hunters of armed men, which is different from many other uses, and the 1911 was significantly more suitable than a revolver for the purpose. (Now, as we understand the demands of a duty 1911, the majority of savvy folks advocate moving away - see Hilton Yam's comprehensive discussions at 10-8performance.com.) I have no problem with a heavy revolver in a serious caliber for duty (my first duty sidearm was an M58; I still have it and it is generally close to me and ready for use), but a 1911 is far more user friendly. It carries more, is easier to shoot well, etc. It is a more demanding weapon, and I finally sold my 1911 and went to the issued G21 for a lot of reasons, but compared to a revolver, a better choice.

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NHI, 10-8.