Hi all... another new guy here with questions about a couple of SW revolvers.
My dear 88 year old mother was a trick rider, sharp shooter & bullwhip artist doing shows back in the day. Clearing out some of her show stuff I came across the two silver plated S&W pistols she carried in her gun belt during the show. They were always loaded with blanks because she did her trick shots with other guns. (these were more for 'show' & to get the attention of the audience)
The first one has on the barrel "38 S&W SPECIAL" & I believe "U.S. SERVICE CTG'S" with a small stamp before & after the text. There is a whole bunch of very small letters & numbers (looks like maybe pat. dates) on the top of the barrel. The S&W Trade Mark is large on the right side. The serial number on the butt is 756** This is a western style double action 6-shooter.

The other is not marked the same as the first & I believe it to be .32 cal. 32-20 CTG stamped of right side of barrel. Smaller SW trade mark logo & on the left side rear. "Smith & Wesson" is spelled out along the left side of the barrel. Western style like the other, serial number on butt is 144***.

The 38 has less of a square handle bottom then the 32 if that helps. Thanks for any date or other info on these guns.

You may want to get factory letters on those. It sounds like they'd be very interesting.

You really need to post pictures!

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Why, I aughta.....

Welcome to the forum.

It sounds like you have two nickel plated K frame Military & Police revolvers from the 1906 to 1909 period. The .38 may be a model of 1902 and the .32-20 a model of 1905. I've asked the moderators to move this thread to where the experts will be, the 1896 to 1960 revolver forum where I expect the experts will make corrections or be more specific. In the mean time adding the last patent dates and pictures will help them identify your revolvers.

"38 S&W SPECIAL" & I believe "U.S. SERVICE CTG'S"
That would likely be a Model of 1902 M&P. This stamping merely indicates that both the U. S. Military Service revolver cartridge of the time (the .38 Long Colt) and the .38 S&W Special cartridge could be used with it. The .38 Long Colt cartridge was dimensionally identical to the .38 S&W Special cartridge, but was slightly shorter. It became obsolete as a military cartridge upon the Army's adoption of the Colt Model 1909 revolver in .45, and the Model of 1911 Colt .45 ACP semiautomatic. It did hang around in military service use, mainly in Guard units, until somewhat after WWI.

The 75XXX .38 is approximately a 1906 gun. If its a round butt, then its a Model of
1902. Otherwise, a square butt would be a Model of 1905. If you are not familiar
with the difference, look at the angle between the back of the frame and where it
meets the butt. If its less than 90 degrees, its a square butt. If its greater than
90 degrees, then its a round butt.

The 32-20 144XXX was shipped in the late 1930's . Other than the caliber, the
gun is identical to a .38 from the same era.

Hopefully this will answer whatever question you had.

Mike Priwer

Welcome to the forum, please post some pictures!!

Sorry for the delay but I didn't receive any email notice of any replies on this thread. I'm so new to this forum's layout that I'm sure I messed-up somewhere. I'll take some photos & try to post them. (wish me luck)

Here is an attempt at posting photos..




Hope that worked The first pair is the 38 & the other pair is 32

Wow. Those are real beauties. We're gonna need lots & lots of pictures of these great guns. You may have to invest in a new camera.

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Why, I aughta.....

You got something special there !.... Were her initials J R, as on the grips of the second set of pictures ? Hope you came across the double holster rig also. Thanks for the story and pictures,which are fine by the way.

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wanna do right-- not right now

The .38 is a round butt wearing square butt grips.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Yes her initials are JR. The grips are the same on both guns even though only one gun has a square butt (the other more rounded). I don't know if the handles are tarnished silver or not because I haven't cleaned or polished anything yet. The nickel finish on one gun is in better shape than the other but I guess for the age & use they're doing pretty well. Yes she has them in a western double holster rig custom tooled leather but has been made white in color (probably with leather shoe dye & polish). Her initials tooled on each holster & a big engraved "Joan" buckle. (remember it was for her show costume)
I took the pictures with my phone, trimmed them down & posted on line so I would have an address to post on this forum. Is there a way to upload from my computer without pre-posting to an online site?

Very nice! The .38 is a Target model, much rarer than the standard fixed sight model like the .32/20, and has been refinished.

It sounds as though your mother could tell some great stories about her experiences if she is able, or even write a book?

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

I guess I'll ask the normal 'next' question... These are neat old guns but do they have a market following for this type or are they just interesting pieces of gun history? Do they attract good money? I like seeing interesting guns too but I wouldn't choose to spend my available hobby money on this type of gun (my model 29 & others yes but cowboy guns... not really) Each to their own, its just not a field I'm knowledgeable about.

The target model definitely has a following. I can't tell, from the pictures, what the
finish of that gun is. Perhaps its plated - you suggested silver, but could it be
nickel ? I also can't tell if the gun has been refinished. These points have an impact
on the value of the gun.

The 32-20 is not all that significant of a gun. Most 32-20's were non-target
revolvers, and given the cost and problems with getting 32-20 ammo, the guns
do not command a premium.

Mike Priwer

A different question about these pistols... Can either or both be converted to fire 45 cal. (Long) by changing the cylinder & barrel? If those parts are still available. Any info?

Can these (either or both) be converted to shoot 45cal. long bullets by swapping out the cylinder & barrel? Are these parts available? Suggestions...
Thanks

Nope, too small of a frame size, these are K frame guns. The .45 Colt is an N frame size cartridge.

Plenty of 45 Cal N frame guns and parts are available though. Even if the parts would fit, it's much cheaper to buy a 45 than to buy parts and to pay a gunsmith to fit and install them.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

I was just thinking about that 32-20 cal. round being hard to find, expensive & not popular that a 45Long/410 conversion would be more interesting. With the frame being the wrong size I guess that idea is 'shot'.
Thanks for the info.

BEAST
I'm not sure how I missed this thread earlier. But let's talk about your .32-20 Hand Ejector.
There were only 144,684 of these made, so yours is among the last 684 to be serialized. Would you be so kind as to send me a PM with the complete serial number? I am interested in the status of the last 1,000 that were produced.
While I hesitate to differ with someone of the stature of Mike P, it is not a given that your revolver shipped in the late 1930s. The fact is that all the .32-20 HE revolvers were produced and assembled by the end of 1930. The company had a huge inventory of them because they were slow sellers, so production ceased and shipments were made from inventory. The model remained in the catalog until 1940, but orders were filled from the vault, not from continued production. For this reason, and from the fact that S&W never shipped guns in serial order, we can say that your revolver could have gone out of the factory any time between 1929 and 1941. In fact, there is good reason to believe a few of these were still in the vault after World War II. There are unconfirmed reports that at least one shipped in the early 1960s. Whether or not the latter is true, we do have confirmed evidence that .32-20 revolvers with serial numbers in the 14xxxx range shipped as early as 1929 or 1930. And guns with lower numbers shipped in the mid- to late-1930s. So the only way to narrow your revolver's shipping date down closer than a 10 year period would be obtain a factory letter.

On a slightly different matter, it is good to see the LERK on your revolver. On the .38 HE, these had pretty much replaced the MERK by mid-1927. I've seen .32-20 revolvers that lettered later than that (and with appropriately higher serial numbers) with the MERK, so the transition seems to have been slower on this model. My suspicion is that .32 caliber barrels had already been cut with the two-step relief, so MERKs were held back for them until all those barrels had been used, thus extending the appearance of the old style knob on the .32-20 longer than it appeared on the .38. Of course, that is speculation on my part, but it seems to fit the evidence better than any other theory I can come up with.
I hope this information is of interest to you.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

I'd love to see some close up shots of the stocks.

You aren't seriously considering selling these revolvers are you?

Not a good reason to give up on it, my friend. the .32 Winchester is a wonderful cartridge. I just had my Target model at the range yesterday and I never stop being pleasantly amazed and how nice it is to shoot. If the sun ever comes out today, I'll try to take a picture of the gun and target to post here. Meanwhile I will post some of the gun itself.
I have actually been able to purchase a box or two of ammo for mine over the last few months. It is expensive, so I've now added it to the cartridges I reload. Components are still available.
And who cares if it's "popular?" Other people just don't know what they are missing!!!
So, do yourself a favor and take that thing out and shoot it. Or, if you won't do that, ship it to me and I'll take care of it for you. I'll treat it very nicely and take it to the range regularly.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

The best thing for you to do is to get a factory letter, particularly for the 1902 target
revolver. The second thing for you to do is to document everything that you know
about these two guns. Like, for example, how long she has owned them, where she
got them from, the length and times of her exhibition career, any awards/presentations
made to her, etc. The 1902 target revolver is from about 1906, making it 108 years
old. Your mother is 88, so the gun is 20 years older than she is. Clearly, it was not
shipped to her from the factory, so a factory letter may, or may not, indicate an
interesting provenance. Still, it would be an important part of the guns history.

Regards, Mike Priwer

Jack

As to my estimated shipping date for the 32-20, here is the information I have
for three target 32-20's, in this serial number range, that I have owned.

143083 6.0 Bl S SM 1st ship 300313 1938-08-08 Holmes Hdw, Pueblo, Co
143607 6.0 Bl S SM 1931-10-27 Dunham C & H Co., SF
144395 6.0 Bl S SM 1936-11-27 Baker H & P Co., SF

I know that some were shipped earlier. I suppose I should modify my estimate to
simply 1930's . "Estimate" is the key word here !

My numbers could be biased because these three are target revolvers. I doubt that
many of these later 32-20's were originally made up as targets. Rather, I suspect
that they were all fixed-sighted guns, and converted to target by the factory when
an order came in for a target revolver. 143083 was first shipped as a fixed-sighted
gun to a dealer in Philadelphia. After 8 years of it not selling, he returned it to the
factory (for full credit), and it was converted to target and reshipped to another
dealer in August of 1938.

Regards, Mike Priwer

I hope you never let these leave your family and that you hang on to all of her "trick riding" things . . . and that you have heirs who will keep 'em in the family as well. Great looking shooting irons - nice history behind 'em!

Thank you, Mike.
Very interesting data. I tend to agree with you about the target guns. This item was such a slow seller, I suspect by the time the Depression was over, they were looking for ways to sell what they had on hand. Converting some to target sights would seem a logical way to do that.
All I do know is the shipping dates on these are all over the map, from 1929 until 1940.
I love these guns. If I could afford it, I'd buy every one in decent shape that I could find. I just had my early 1902 Target out to the range yesterday. Every time I take it out, I remember why I love it so much. A little later today, I'll post yesterday's target. It's dark and snowing out, so I may have to take pictures indoors!
Cheers.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

BEAST
Here's a relatively recent box of .32-20 ammo. This is still made by Olin and if you are looking for it, this is the box design you should be keeping an eye out for.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

I would forget any ideas of modifying either of them. First, get factory letters. There may be more history behind them than you suspect. If you wish to shoot the .32-20, ammunition is available, but not at the local Wal-Mart. And I feel the grips alone may have significant value. I don't know what they are, possibly Mexican, possibly Silver. Perhaps someone can supply the story about them.

As promised, here is what the little .32 Winchester K frame target model that lives in my safe did yesterday.
20 rounds, slow fire at 15 yards. She is a joy to shoot!

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

Wow...Much thanks for all the great knowledge. (it's not the 32 that has the adjustable target site though) I've packed them up (again) while I'm busy getting my taxes done & stuff, but will get back into the pistols again when things slow down. As far as when she bought them (used), it would have been early-to-mid 50's. As far as where, her travels started in Canada & went through the US down to Panama (& Central America) with various shows. The grips were most likely purchased around the same time & they look Mexican or Central American. As far as factory letters for history, I'm sure these guns have been bought & sold many times since the original purchase especially if she got them 'south-of-the-border'. As far as keeping them for the family... I have no kids.

[email protected] asked about the serial number,

The full serial number on that 32-20 is #144049 (if that helps any).
I don't know if being part of the 'last 1000' would make it any more desirable or not (probably not) . I went to the gun show today (Dallas TX.) & saw where they were asking $35 for 25 rounds of 32-20 ammo. Not much chance I'd spend that much to punch holes in a paper target with that pistol. They also had some 'new brass' rounds for my 44 Auto Mag gun for the same price... worth it when I figure the time & cost I put into making my brass out of 'cut-down' 308 rifle brass for that precious little stainless jewel (yes, I bought it new after seeing Clint's movie). Easy choice between the two boxes of ammo. A nice surprise today was I removed the grips from both the 32-20 & 38 (in the pictures previously posted) & they were stamped Mexico & .995 silver. Not sure if the 'gold' details are plated or some rose-gold accent but the silver grips were pretty heavy. I can't see turning them in for spot-silver scrap but it was a nice surprise to verify what they were made of.
A local (quality) gun shop has the guns, belt & mother's show brochure together for sale in a display case & on some collector sites... I'll cross my fingers & hope they find them a new home. If not I'll cross that bridge if it happens.

Mike
Here's an interesting tidbit:
.32-20 HE with serial number 141399 shipped in March, 1928! If production stopped at 144,684 sometime in 1930, as we suspect, they were not cranking these out very quickly in the last couple years. Only 3285 numbers separates this early 1928 gun from the end of the run. Moreover, if it shipped in late winter, 1928, it was assembled sometime before that. Who knows how long?
I thought this was enlightening.
Jack

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

Jack

Its very confusing to try to rationalize shipping dates for a relatively small number of
S&W revolvers; ie, 1000 to 2000 guns. They are just all over the place. For example,
in the serial number range of 62101 to 62701 ( 600 guns total ) the shipping dates
span the range of Jan 1905 to May 1907. I plotted all 600 of these points, and the
page looks like a shot-gun blast hit it.

From what I know, the frames were made in batches, starting with the forging press run.
I don't know what the size of a run was - estimates range from several hundred to something
in the low thousands. These frames would then be machined, serial-numbered, and stored
in some kind of barrels.

Its in this process where the serial-number shipping-date relationship gets all messed up,
over the short term. I think that as the frames were serial-numbered, they were placed into
the storage barrels in probably serial number order; the serial-numbers advanced monotonically,
and as the numbers were stamped, the frames went into the barrels. This means that lower-
number frames went in first, and higher-number frames went in next, and so on.

For a particular barrel, then, the last frames in would be the first frames out; ie, LIFO. So,
what you would expect is to see, within the serial-number range of a particular barrel, an
inverse relationship between serial number and shipping-date. Now, maybe more than one
barrel was utilized for a particular run. Depending on how the barrels were filled, and how
frames were taken from the barrels for completion, the shipping-date serial-number relationship
could become totally chaotic.

It also seems possible that they may have put serial-numbered frames into an earlier barrel that
was not empty; ie, there were still some frames on the bottom of the barrel from a previous
batch. When such a barrel finally was used up, there would be some serial numbers from the
earlier batch being shipped much later in date sequence.

Over the longer term, like decades, there would appear to be a reasonable correlation between
shipping date and serial number. It would be locally-noisy, but not so over the much longer term.
And that is what we see.

Regards, Mike

Sure. My only point here was the fact that a gun only 3K numbers from the end of production shipped two years before production ceased. So, only what? Two or three batches (maybe four) were assembled over a period of approximately 24-26 months? I think by the late 1920s, S&W was already seeing the handwriting on the wall. The .32-20 was not going to be a big seller in the future. That's what I was getting at.
Jack

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

Mike
Also to illustrate your point. I was just writing to another member who has an early .32-20 Target, only 123 serial numbers away from my earliest Target model. These two revolvers shipped almost two years apart from one another - despite the probable fact that they were assembled in the same batch.
Regards,

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

Take a look at these grips. As you can see when those on your Mom's guns are cleaned up and polished that she was a pretty spiffy lookin' gal.

If you have the costumes, boots, and the gunbelt she wore, they should be preserved.

You really need to get all the info from your Mom that you can about her act and travels. You've got a real treasure there and you need preserve it.

Based on what you learn, you may want to donate it to The Cowboy Hall of Fame in OK or a local museum.

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Eccentric old coot

From my earlier posting: "I don't know what they are, possibly Mexican, possibly Silver."
I tolja so. I've seen lots of Mexican silver grips in Texas. Not recently, however. That was back when silver was cheap.

"A local (quality) gun shop has the guns, belt & mother's show brochure together for sale in a display case & on some collector sites... I'll cross my fingers & hope they find them a new home. If not I'll cross that bridge if it happens." Sorry to learn you are not keeping them.

Me too!

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

"As far as keeping them for the family... I have no kids."

Daddy, Daddy!! I finally found you!!!

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Yes, I found a group of female trick riders Cowgirl Chicks Equestrian Specialty Act | Never Quit TV Show | All American Cowgirl Chicks (who also have a cable TV show) that are in the Dallas/Ft Worth area that run a school for trick riding and a 'museum' honoring Western Rodeo acts. They now have my mother's trick riding saddle, gear, pictures & gear. I figured that was a good tribute to her show times. They wanted her guns too but it is my responsibility (while she is still alive) to ensure her financial security during this major medical stage of life.

I confess if the pair do not sell I'd still look into 'converting' the 32-20 pistol into a different cal. Maybe it would only take a cylinder & barrel that are 38 cal. That way the set would be a closer 'match' (except for the frame's grip shape)... That sound like a possible plan?

Possible, yes. But probably not wise. Right now the gun still has some collector interest and charm, especially with those stocks on it. Once you spend the money converting it, all that will be gone forever. There were a zillion more of these made chambered for the .38 Special. Why convert one that has a much less common chamber, especially since you could never get your money back out of it? I personally think it should be kept as a memorial to your mother's interesting past.
But it's your gun. Do with it as you please.
JP

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

I know LERK is Large Ejector Rod Knob, but MERK? Medium?
Help me please.
George

"Mushroom!"

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart's famous line, "I know it when I see it", referring to not being able to define pornography leads me to the similar conundrum of defining cool. These revolvers are COOL! The story behind them is COOL! Don't change them.

Iggy got it right - "If you have the costumes, boots, and the gun belt she wore, they should be preserved.

You really need to get all the info from your Mom that you can about her act and travels. You've got a real treasure there and you need preserve it."

I'm not one much for "collectors guns" but these are pretty nice family artifacts. Museum worthy really. If you are really in a desperate need to sell them and can't justify keeping them because you have no one to pass them down to have you put any thought into contacting arms museums? Smith and Wesson even has one themselves. They might be willing to buy your set for display purposes. Seems that if you cant pass them on to your children it would be great if you could make some coin and share them with those who'd allow others to enjoy them.

If your mission is to generate the most money for your mother's medical expenses, consignment to a local gun store is not the answer. Put as much of the whole ensemble ( clothiers, gear, saddles, pictures, brochures,holsters, & the guns & silver grips, etc. ) with a major international auction house. The sale will generate many times more $$ than any local gun store, as 1,000s of bidders will see the package. You should be able to negotiate a zero sellers premium with this quality of a package. Because of the dollars exchange rate now, European and other foreign buyers a paying out of sight prices for auction items like this. Easily into 5 figures & more. Good Luck, Ed.