Attached are seller's two photos of the early Chiefs I just bought. SN 38953. I wanted a shooter and carry one only, but not with rust or cracked stocks. Hopefully this will do fine.

It's a 5 screw with the serrated ramp front sight, matching original stocks, 2nd pattern flat latch, and thinning finish. The bore and cylinder charging holes and the lockworks are supposed to be excellent. I think it would probably date as shipped about 1954 but that is just a guess. I bought it for $455. Unfortunately, another gent bid in the last 15 minutes or I would have had it for $400. So it goes.......
I'm mostly an Airweight J frame accumulator but no J frame fan's collection is complete with out at least one steel frame one - the older the better

I am a bit puzzled by the hammer. It's a little later pattern hammer than I thought the gun would have originally had. Maybe a replacement hammer? I'd like to get some opinions from you experts if you care to take the time, thanks.

Also, do you agree with the approximate shipping date I've tried to judge?

I won't be getting a letter for this one only to find out it was shipped to Schmedlap's Hardware store in Anytown USA.

Your opinions are important to me. Again, thanks in advance.






Mike

Baby Chief 40901 shipped in April 1954 so I would agree 1954 for yours as well.

I also agree the hammer is a replacement from the original . . . could have been shooter preference since the early hammer was finely checked and more difficult to fire SA . . . or the original hammer could have been damaged (as often happens) when the gun was dropped.



Nice example . . . hope you enjoy,

Russ

Nice Baby Chief,I have a special one coming my way as well.Just a warning they multiply quickly.

Why are they called "Baby"?

***GRJ***

The early Chiefs Specials were made on the Improved I frame which was based on the older 32 and 38 S&W cal. (not 38 S&W Special) Terrier frame, a bit smaller than the J frame which became the standard 5 shot frame ever after. The I frame has a slightly smaller grip frame area that is very hard to see if one is not familiar with design. J frame magna stocks don't fit the old I frames. They have an overhang of about an eigth of an inch. The mainspring was also redesigned, as was the cylinder window and thus, the frame itself, to contain the longer 38 Special Cartridge.
Another difference that is easy to see, is the smaller and more rounded trigger guard, which was replaced with the longer, ovoid trigger guard. The frames went from 5 down to 3 screws eventually. There was also a change from a flat leaf mainspring to a coiled mainspring.

Since the early Chiefs Specials are slightly smaller in frame and grip area than most of the production has been, they are casually referred to as "Baby Chiefs Specials".

Our Baby Chief experts can explain it better. I'm working from memory and I'm not an expert on them.

The early Chief Specials . . . from their introduction in 1950 to 1953 . . . were built on the new J-frame (enlarged cylinder window) but used the smaller I grip frame and a small rounded trigger guard. Collectors gave them the "Baby Chief" name because of their small size and to distinguish them.

Russ

edit to add . . . Malysh gave a more complete answer

Russ, I have always been too long winded. It's a curse

Because you can't keep them in a corner? With proper apologies to "Dirty Dancing."

Froggie

I like the cylinder release.

That's a very decent Baby J frame that you won't have to worry about shooting or carrying.

The old and new hammer use overlapped quite a bit. The old hammer was used as high as #45963 on the Baby J.

Yours is the lowest # with new style hammer, but I can not say it's a replacement for sure.

The lowest known full size Chiefs Model of 1953 with old style hammer is #462XX.

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

Thanks very much for your information, Jim. I know you are very well versed with this model and I was hoping you would see this thread and comment.

I'll post an update when the gun arrives. I will be examining the top and back of the grip frame and the gun in general to see if I can detect any signs of it being dropped in such a manner that it would land on the hammer and break it. If so, there would be other dents or marks on the frame which might substantiate the gun being dropped.

I am encouraged, though, by your comments of possible overlapping of parts. Colts as well as all other large manufacturers do this routinely, unless a superceded part was judged as a safety danger.

Mike

Russ, I forgot to thank you for posting your picture. Thanks

Although we know what the early hammer looks like, who doesn't like to see more good quality pictures?
I would have preferred this gun came with the older hammer but it wasn't a deal breaker.
Jim put me at ease with his research info.
Although the gun could possibly have been dropped and sustained a broken hammer spur, the odds are that it is just an early factory Chiefs with the "improved hammer".
Either way I doubt I wil try to find an early pattern replacement hammer. It's pretty cool the way it is and I'd bet an early J frame hammer would be hard to find and not cheap.
I will still look for some tell-tale signs of being dropped. You never know.......

Thanks for the explanation!

I'm about to acquire a J-frame in .38 S&W caliber. I don't think it's a "Baby" but after I get it I'll submit the question to y'all.

***GRJ***

When I look at the photos in the priginal posts, it looks to me like the trigger guard on this revolver is not as rounded as on the other baby chiefs I've seen photos of (see thumbnails). Not as ovoid as the full sized Chiefs either. Does anyone else notice this, or am I imagining it? Is this an optical illusion?

Attached Images

	half-moon baby chief.jpg (251.6 KB, 96 views)
	ramp baby chief.jpg (105.6 KB, 94 views)
	baby chief maybe.jpg (113.4 KB, 95 views)

A small-frame 38 S&W would likely be a Terrier, not a baby Chief, and would be an i-frame, an improved i-frame, or (later) a j-frame.

I noticed that too, before I even bid on it. I sure can't tell. Maybe some cop owned it and beaned a perp over the head with the gun to subdue him? Or maybe it's a "transitional" frame? (just joking!)

The sellers pictures aren't the greatest. I'm not such a hot photog either.

Hopefully it won't be a problem. Time will tell.

Right, a 38 S&W gun is not called a baby Chief.

Can't wait to see it.

As hotrod said, The Terrier was not made on the Baby J frame, and it wasn't a J frame until Jan 1961.

A Terrier made in the era of the Baby J would be an I frame of type #1 or #2 below. After that it would be a Type #3. Model of 1953 'New' I frame between 1953 and 1961 when it became the J frame.

Type 1. Late 1940's = transitional I frame. Short cyl window. Small T guard and short grip, both the same as the Baby J.

Type 2. c. 1952 = Improved I frame, the Coil mainspring is the improvement. Short cyl window. Small T guard and short grip, both the same as the Baby J.

Type 3. Model of 1953 'New' I frame, still has a short cyl window, New because it has a larger trigger guard, only 4 screws and the longer grip frame, same size as the J frame of that period and all the way up to the present.

C. Jan 1961 = all I frames became J frames with .38 Spl length cyl window.

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

Agreed, it's got a flattened area. Simple to fix however.

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

You might want to reconsider lettering it. If it its truly a Schmedlap's Hardware .38 you have a real gem there.

__________________
Forum consigliere

Did you actually know Schmedlap???
I'm impressed!

Mike

Thanks to Jim, I now know how to return that trigger guard to it's original shape. I was surprised at how easy it really is. I am fairly handy but I'm no gunsmith.
I thought it would be a daunting job to fix it.

Care to share the secret with us?

First let's see if Jim wants to reply. I don't want to come off like some "expert" about something I just learned yesterday.

Malysh,

Congrats on a nice find. Like you, I wanted a CCW gun with a little extra class, so I looked for a Baby Chief too. I found SN 422xx at a gun show in Salem, VA. It has all the same features as yours but just a little more blue wear, so I got it at a screaming deal from an acquaintance there. One comment; having shot a lot with little snubs with both half round and ramp style front sights, I think we got the right one... my old eyes can see it a whole lot better than the half round on my 32 snub. Have fun!

Froggie

PS Just noticed; I do have the fine checkered hammer on mine. I've never had any trouble manipulating it, though; must be my "single action thumb callus."

Thanks for you encouraging words and sharing your new acquisition, Froggie.

I have two revolvers with "half moon" front sights. A 1954 M&P 2" round butt snub, which some folks here have seen via a thread, and a 1944 square butt Detective Special that was shipped to M.I.C. at Camp Ritchie, MD. in Feb. 1944 for Army Intelligence. That one is lettered, but I've never posted it here.

I doubt I can shoot guns with those tapered old fashioned sights as well as I might have years ago. We're getting older!
Ramped and serrated front sights have faster target acquisition and eliminate a lot of glare.

Want to shoot a few guns with hard to see sights? Try a Colt Hammerless or any Colt Govt. Model made before the 80 Series (I'm pretty sure you have at least shot a Govt. Model before!)

Yes, happy to. No real secret, just what has been successful for me in the past using some old auto bodywork experience.

The good news is, it's very easy to fix especially if not 'kinked' and I have re-curved a few. The trigger guard is fairly easy to bend. It's like doing body work on a car by placing a 'dolly' under the point that needs to be raised and hammering on the outside of the trigger guard next to the dolly, not on the dolly.

Remove the trigger from the gun (see plan B below). Use a piece of round metal like steel pipe as a dolly, as large of a diameter as just fits in the trigger guard, and clamp horizontally in a vise. Wrap it with several layers of masking or duct tape. Hang the gun on this 'dolly' upside down with the trigger guard up. Now take a rawhide mallet or steel hammer padded with several layers of tape.

Hold the gun with left hand so the middle of the flattened area rests on the dolly. Tap the trigger guard with the padded hammer on the left and right sides of the dolly. Do not tap the guard directly above the dolly. The dolly will raise the metal in the area between your taps and restore the curve. Move the gun around on the dolly as you tap so the curve is restored evenly.

It would be very important to have another Baby J frame or early I frame trigger guard to look at so that you can tell when the curve is just right. If the guard doesn't reshape, tap a little harder.
You'll be surprised at how easy this can be to fix. Because of the tape padding the surface blue will not be dinged or affected and the repair cab be virtually undetectable."

Here's a plan B; don't take the gun apart. Just cock the hammer which will move the trigger out of the way. If the hammer drops while tapping, prop it to full cock with a pencil eraser.

If you don't have another gun to look at for the proper trigger guard shape, there are excellent photos of guns/trigger guards on the forum. Print one out full size and that should work as well.

Any questions, please don't hesitate to ask.

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

Hondo44, we've got "shade tree mechanics" around here, but that's about as close as I've heard to "shade tree gunsmithing!" Then again, if it works, who's to argue, huh? You can bet that's a helpful hint I'll stash away in my Frog Files. I remember on another board hearing about using a coffee can to get the curve right for converting a straight grip to a pistol grip on an old Winchester high wall, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised, should I? It's amazing the little tricks of the trade we learn and how various simple objects may be repurposed to achieve different special effects.

Regards,
Froggie

Do you think the trigger guard on Malysh's Baby Chief was flattened by accident, or on purpose? It looks so much like the ovoid guard on an "adult" Chief, only shorter fore-and-aft, that I almost wonder if someone decided to purposely alter it to resemble a later gun.
Anyone ever heard of someone doing this?

Here are 2 hammers from Baby's at S/N 12041 and 35920

The one on the left has a non serrated ramp too. That is 12041

__________________
John 1:17
NRA Life Benefactor

Great pictures and data, Mike.

This supports what Hondo44 mentioned. There is a lot of overlap between the two hammer patterns.

None of us will ever know, but I think it was done by accident. I won't receive the gun until late in the week. The seller told me there were no tell tale signs of being dropped and that the outside surface is still smooth. If so, to me that would mean it wasn't dropped, but that somebody used it to bean somebody else on the noggin. Again, we'll never know for sure.

I think the current shape of the trigger guard more closely resembles that of a D frame Colt. It's between the rounded S&W trigger guard and the oval shapped ones.
Within a few weeks of getting it I will be reshaping that trigger guard per Hondo44's instructions. I think I will be able to do a satisfactory job.

As he told me, it's too bad I live so far away. I could have brought the gun over to him. He said it's about a 10 minute job.

A whole bunch of us wish we were closer to Brother Hondo... I'm afraid he'd never get away from his workbench if we did, though. Then too, he wouldn't get to work on his own stuff or write his insightful posts on the forum either. Maybe it's just as well he's not conveniently located nearby! I for one will continue to seek and depend upon his good advice.

Best of luck on your reshaping... it should be pretty straightforward if you take it easy.

Regards,
Froggie

I picked up the Baby Chiefs today. It has a fair amount of external high edge wear and thinning finish, but the recoil shield, cylinder face, barrel and charging holes show very, very little wear. Almost immaculate. The timing appears to be exellent, and the cylinder/ barrel gap is acceptable. Tomorrow I will give it a good cleaning and shoot some type of 158gr. 38 Specials from it at about 10-15 yds. I really don't bother practicing at 5-7 yds. If I can hit well at 10-15 I figure I've got nothing to worry about at closer ranges.

The outside of the trigger guard where it was squashed shows no dents, scrapes or gouges, only wear associated with a holster.

These clues lead me to believe that it may have been a cop gun. I am probably wrong but I don't associate felons with bashing people in the head with a gun. They usually just shoot you! Cops, I associate with this, having a reluctance to take a life if not necessary; as last time I checked, cops are NOT sociopaths.

Next week I will be returning the trigger guard to it's original contour, thanks to the guidance of our own Hondo44.

I hope it turns out well. Don't forget to post before-and-after photos please.

And a range report.

Will do, hotrod150 & snubbyfan.

Well, today I gave it a good scrubbing with Breakfree. In my day we called it LSA

I figured 59 year old gun has to have some grime on the surface. It cleaned well, but it is still a well traveled and aged piece. I verified the stocks are original with same SN. But then, I really didn't expect they would be replacement I frame stocks to begin with. They can be harder to find than smooth high horn Centennial stocks.

I'm currently scrounging around the basement and tools looking for a length of pipe with the correct diameter for the "plastic surgery" on the trigger guard.

I spent quite a while trying to reshape the trigger guard on the Baby Chief yesterday, with some mixed results. It's about 90% of what it should look like. It's not quite there, but I had to stop before I lost concentration. It's better to walk away from a project than to keep plodding ahead when you are getting tired, especially if you don't have any experience and are trying to learn a new skill.

Hondo44s directions were superb. However, I am no gunsmith and I really don't have that feel for hammering steel with just the right touch an experienced person or gunsmith has.

I also wound up peening the yoke screw because I don't have the skill to control the hammer like many of you folks do. No big deal. I can get another yoke screw from a number of places.

Thanks again to Hondo.

I like the hell out of your Baby Chief.
Then again, I like all of the Charter, Colt, Dan Wesson, Ruger, and Smith & Wesson snubs.
It's a sickness.
I also seem to have a strong visual preference for those shorter grip frames.

My favorite cap gun, as a boy, was a Chief's Special lookalike that took ring caps.