Some interesting information has developed on these two guns - specifically s/n 43133.

This gun was shipped to W C Ayer on Sept 27 1910. s/n 43134, the other gun of the
two, was shipped on Sept 26 1910 to J W Bell. Both address's are unknown.

The price of 43133 was $38.65. The list price in the 1911 price sheet is $17. The
letter speculates, and I agree, that this was probably a two-gun shipment. The other
$4.65 would have easily covered the checkering of the grip straps on 43133.

The name W C Ayer is showing up as someone from St Louis, Mo. I found a recent
letter from someone looking for information on W C Ayer, circa 1910.

More interesting is what shows up in "The World Alamanac & Book of Facts" page 388
1914. WC Ayer is a very good revolver shooter. Here is page 388; Ayer's entries
are highlighted in yellow.



He placed 5th in the 50 shot Target Revolver category with a score of 443. The
four shooters in front of him were all Doctors. That score earned him 1st place in
Missouri. On the next line you'll see Dr R H Sayre from New York, placing second with
a score of 432. One of the 1899's I own is Dr Sayre's 8" target revolver. Dr Sayre was
Captain of the US revolver team in the summer 1908 Olympics.

Regards, Mike Priwer

Mike
This is interesting information I think if we could find out the people that the 4 inch K-32 were shipped to we would find that they were shipped to target shooters.
Your Two are a start of that, also 61909 is a .32 Long 4" shipped 02/12/1916 to John Dietz who was a very famous shooter from this period.
If you look in the USRA rules for revolvers the 4 inch 32 S&W's were used for the pocket pistol matches in this time frame.
Jim Fisher

Jim

Roy thought that he had to be someone of importance since he was buying direct from the factory, but not in the dealer list.

I'm reasonably sure that the W C Ayer who received the gun is, in fact, the shooter
referenced in the 1914 World Almanac. I'm even more sure that there were two guns
in the shipment, given the amount that was charged.

By the way, Jim, do you know a reference source of who all the shooters might have been in the
time-frame of, say 1910 to 1914 ? Ie, not just the five highest scores, but all the competitors ?
I'd like to see if J W Bell was a competitive shooter.

If possible, I need some information that ought to be on the original invoice, if that
document is available. Specifically, the following questions come to mind:

Who was the other gun shipped to, and what was it ? Is it possible that 43134 was
the other gun ? If so, it was the gun shipped to J W Bell . Was J W Bell another
shooter, and did W C Ayer pay for it, and have it sent to J W Bell ? Given that
43133 has checkered front and rear grips straps, was that engraved by hand, and if
so, was 43134 a backup-gun for the engraver, in case something went wrong during
the engraving ? They were shipped one day apart, which means that they could have
been made together as a pair.

Regards, Mike

Just curious if either of you had followed the sale (today) on Gunbroker of 4" engraved S/N 49857 just completed about an hour ago. Auction # 362014357. No, I didn't get it.

__________________
H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

Richard

This looks like an I-frame to me. Like a model of 1903, maybe 1st change, but not
sure. Barrel should be 4 1/4", not 4". Also, if this is what it is, there were way
more than 4000 made. The GB description is not consistent with Roy's book.

None of the known 32-20's chambered in 32 long have a caliber marking on the
side of the barrel.

Regards, Mike Priwer

A google search found a J W Bell listed as a competitor at the Grand American Handicap held in Chicago June 19-21, 1907.

Edit to add - more google search shows J W Bell to be a trapshooter out of Missouri.

__________________
Dennis
SWCA #2409, SWHF #353

Those trapshooters had some expensive guns... maybe Mr Bell carried the 32 to "ride shotgun" on his shotgun!

Seriously though, I'm surprised that a serious trap shooter would also purchase what was a pretty serious target shooter's revolver. Please keep us up to date as more of this story emerges, Mike. I for one am enjoying the saga immensely.

Regards,
Froggie

This might start a new trend for all the new trapshooters.

Well - It has been interesting. Unfortunately, the invoices for the 1910 period
do not exist - apparently they were damaged (either by water or something else)
and thrown out.

What we do know is an interesting set of facts. We know that a person named
W C Ayer, and another person named J W Bell, were the recipients of these two
4" K-32's . The shipping records for this two guns do not have any address's . We
also know that two persons with these same names lived in Missouri, and probably
St Louis, and those two persons were target shooters; Ayer was a target revolver
shooter, and Bell was a trap shooter.

We also know that I have not been able to find any other persons with those names.
So, it seems very likely that these two fellows were, in fact, the recipients of the
two K-32's.

Furthermore, we know that Ayer paid more that twice the full catalog retail price
for 43133. It does have checkered grip straps, but that would not have been more
than a couple dollars. So - its very likely that Ayer paid for two guns. We also know
that it was factory policy, for an engraved gun, to make up two guns, so that if
something went wrong with the engraving, the second gun would be the fallback
strategy. The checkering of both grip straps would have been a hand engraving.

We also know that 43133 shipped within one day of 43134. While Ayer paid for two
guns, we know that he only received one of these two 4" K-32's . (Bell got the other one.)
At this point, there seems only two possibilities. First - Ayer ordered and
received two guns - one was 43133, and the other was some other gun. Second,
Ayer ordered and paid for two guns, but only received one (43133); the other gun
he paid for went to someone else, at Ayer's direction. In this case, it may well have
been another 4" K-32 ( 43134 ) being given - perhaps as a gift - to another Missouri
shooter - J W Bell.

We also know that Ayer was able to buy 43133 directly from the factory, without
being on the dealers list. So, he was well-known to the factory. This appears to
leave at least one more question: did J W Bell pay for his gun. And, is there anything
in the factory records indicating that he even ordered a gun ? If it can be established
that he did not pay for his gun, nor did he order the gun, then it must have been
a gift from someone else -most likely Ayer.

This is what it looks like now.

Regards, Mike Priwer

Mike,
Try sending a letter to:

W. C. Ayer
412 Lucas Ave.
St. Louis. Mo.

That was his address in the early 1900's when he was shooting.
Regards
H. M. Pope

I agree with Mike that the gun is an I frame....the buyer of that gun IS a forum member though!

__________________
Kris
OGCA, NRA LM

I googled the address above and it is now what appears to be a fairly large parking garage.

__________________
Richard
Engraved S&W fan

I'm from St Louis, and I am pretty sure that 412 Lucas is long gone. Also, I think
Ayer was born in 1890, so he'd be 120+ today. I wouldn't bet on that !

Regarding the gun shipped to J W Bell, turns out that he received another one of
these 32-20's in 32 long - s/n 43145 - a full year earlier . This is very curious, because
it suggests that a small block of sequential serial numbers was used for these guns.
And, it took at least a year to sell them. There is another small block in the 619XX
range, of these same guns. Look at my UNUSUAL CHAMBERINGS file in the
Downloads area of this website.

Regards, Mike Priwer

Mike,
I really didn't think he would get back to you, thought that if it was a family Home / Farm, etc. that some one may get back to you. I've done this more than once and got hold of relatives that had a lot of info on the person I was researching. Guess not this time, unless there running the parking garage.

Could not find any info on a J W Bell ever being registered as a handgun target shooter. If J W Bell was a registered shotgun shooter it would be very unusual for him to also be a target handgun shooter, shotguns and handguns do not mix like handguns and rifles do.
H. M. Pope

JW Bell was a trap shooter. No doubt about that. Apparently his son was also.



I have no information, or any idea, about why he received two of these guns. The only
thing I know for sure is that the shipping records show the two 32-long revolvers
going to him.

Regards, Mike Priwer

While researching Dr. Sayre online, I came across info from American Rifleman Vol. #39 for military revolver shooting contest. It said R H Sayre & Himmelwright had obtained .38 Stevens-Pope 8 inch barrels prior to the contest, which added greatly to their accuracy. Could yours be one with Pope barrel on a revolver? This would have been while Pope still working for Stevens, shortly before he left to be on his own.

You got my curiosity energized..

It appears St. Louis Button Company may have been owned by W. C. Ayer. Might be a good start looking at pin and button collectors...

Yes - Ayer did own the St Louis Pin & Button Company. And thanks for sending the
link to the auction featuring one of their advertising printings.

Ayer was also active in a St Louis charity that helped wayward children. There is a
woman in California whose mother was a runaway child. Ayer was somehow involved
in helping this child - in St Louis.

Regards, Mike Priwer