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Old 12-31-2013, 07:25 PM
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Default Non relieved target stocks

What is the general serial number range that saw k frames shipped with non relieved diamond targets?

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Old 12-31-2013, 07:39 PM
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Interesting question. I was under the impression that targets were an extra cost option on K frames?

Last edited by 824tsv; 12-31-2013 at 07:41 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 12-31-2013, 09:48 PM
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They were an option on some models, standard on others, but as I understand it the non relieved diamond targets were only used for a short while before the factory switched over to the relieved style.
Hopefully someone more knowledgeable then myself will come along and offer some advice.

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Old 12-31-2013, 10:08 PM
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the dates were generally 1951-1955. Do you have a serial # in mind?
K22's would be in the k100,000 - K250,000, give or take a couple of ten thou.


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Old 12-31-2013, 10:54 PM
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I was curious about my K 262xxx combat mag but mostly interested in the general period these stocks were correct for.

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Old 01-01-2014, 02:21 AM
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The first combat mags were K260xxx in 1955, so your's is early enough to have had the non relieved stocks. I am quite sure I have seen early examples of combat mags with the non-relieved stocks.


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Old 01-01-2014, 06:20 AM
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As always with things S&W, you will see a lot of overlap in the list below. Serial number ranges would have to interpolated by model from the years given:

TARGET STOCK STYLE VARIATIONS - TIME FRAMES

A) Early non-relieved smooth Rosewood and other wood "Coke Bottle" stocks. Black washer, early 50's, special-order-only-applications, scarce. The bottom flare and long trigger guard area are indicative. Pg 23 SCSW, 3rd ed.

B) Non-Relieved checkered Targets. Black washer, 1952 until about 1958.

C) Relieved ("football cutout") checkered Targets w/diamonds. Black washer, 1956 until about 1974 although most were used up by 1972.

D) Relieved ("Coke bottle") Targets. Black washer, 1956 until 1967-68.
These stocks were specific to .44 Magnum and early years of the Model 57. Special order only on pre 24s, 27s, etc.
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Old 01-01-2014, 03:06 PM
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The big question is do any members have an early Combat Magnum ( under serial K-265,000) that they are 100% sure has its original grips and can they post pics.

Its an interesting topic because unlike the serial numbered Magnas S&W generally didnt apply serial numbers to target grips or presentation grips with exception of a small amount of early target grips ,
Also IIRC the factory letter does not usually address grip specifics other than style shipped so unless you were the original owner there is really no way to know if grips have been changed in a guns lifetime .

Special pieces may have been fitted with special grips so we probably should focus on factory pieces for the general public not special early run presentation pieces or engraved guns .

Im guessing there is evidence pointing to the earliest guns shipping with non relieved targets like this ad, Also guessing S&W used what they had on hand and in 1955 both relieved and non relieved targets were in stock .


Unless the gun was a safe queen its likely that owners of guns sold with non relieved grips at some point realized the non relieved grips could interfer with case extraction as well as prevent the use of speed loaders and so might have purchased a set with the football cutout when they became available.



BTW subtle variations generally help narrow down target grips to 5 year time frame.

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Old 01-01-2014, 03:22 PM
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Combat Magnum, K260190, shipped on May 1, 1956 with a dark blue presentation case numbered to the revolver. I am confident the stocks are original as they are numbered (a few early pairs were) 260 380 on the right stock panel. I believe it was S&W's intention to number the stocks to this model, but quickly decided it was not necessary and so they used up the numbered stocks at random. All of the early Combat Magnums I have seen were shipped with diamond target stocks with the relieved area on the left panel.

Bill

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Old 01-01-2014, 03:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fungunnin View Post
What is the general serial number range that saw k frames shipped with non relieved diamond targets?
A good question . . . thanks for raising it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by crsides View Post
the dates were generally 1951-1955 . . . K22's would be in the k100,000 - K250,000, give or take a couple of ten thou. Charlie
Charlie, I believe the K target stocks first appeared in the January 1950 issue of the All Model Circular . . . and have been told there are examples in the K254XXX and K255XXX s/n range. That could stretch the K range for non-relieved targets to 1950 - early-1956 . . . s/n K80,XXX to K260,XXX . . . "give or take a couple ten thou" as you said!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondo44 View Post
As always with things S&W, you will see a lot of overlap in the list below. Serial number ranges would have to interpolated by model from the years given:

TARGET STOCK STYLE VARIATIONS - TIME FRAMES

A) Early non-relieved smooth Rosewood and other wood "Coke Bottle" stocks. Black washer, early 50's, special-order-only-applications, scarce. The bottom flare and long trigger guard area are indicative. Pg 23 SCSW, 3rd ed.

B) Non-Relieved checkered Targets. Black washer, 1952 until about 1958.

C) Relieved ("football cutout") checkered Targets w/diamonds. Black washer, 1956 until about 1974 although most were used up by 1972.

D) Relieved ("Coke bottle") Targets. Black washer, 1956 until 1967-68.
These stocks were specific to .44 Magnum and early years of the Model 57. Special order only on pre 24s, 27s, etc.
Jim, I'm thinking your examples above would apply to the N-frame world.


As with all things S&W, I don't believe we'll find a hard-and-fast cutoff date . . . but it sure is fun trying

Russ

Last edited by linde; 01-01-2014 at 03:53 PM. Reason: add "give or take a couple ten thou"
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Old 01-01-2014, 04:03 PM
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My CM came to me from the original owner - SN: K 260863 has the cut out and Target Hammer.
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Old 01-01-2014, 04:27 PM
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S&W completed the first Combat Magnum on December 15, 1955. The next three or four were completed in January 1956. S&W only made 77 Combat Magnums through the end of April 1956 as production really did not ramp up until May. Based on the fact S&W used stocks on the 44 Magnum with the relieved area, I believe they also chose to use the same type of stocks on their new Combat Magnum. That is not to say a few weren't shipped with the earlier style of stock, but I know some guns have had their stocks changed due to the AMC that first listed the Combat Magnum (photo posted above) because the owner thought the earlier style was correct for their particular revolver.

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Old 01-01-2014, 07:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by linde View Post
Jim, I'm thinking your examples above would apply to the N-frame world.
Russ
Russ,

All "Coke" stock references apply only to N frames.
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Old 01-01-2014, 09:57 PM
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Doc any idea how many Combat Magnums shipped in the blue box or what approximate date or serial the blue box was discontinued ?

The early Combat Magnum is probably my favorite S&W.


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Russ,

All "Coke" stock references apply only to N frames.
When referencing "COKES" on the forum its generally accepted the grips being referred to are N diamond targets with the larger checkered area that came on earlier Model 29's but the SCSW 3rd ed states "K" diamond cokes do exist as well as smooth presentation "Cokes" in both N and K frame sizes .
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Old 01-01-2014, 10:42 PM
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There are only eight documented Combat Magnums that shipped with a dark blue presentation case. The serial numbers and shipping dates vary, but at least two of them were early guns that were sent to General Hatcher of the NRA and Pete Kuhlhoff of Argosy Magazine.

I think S&W was planning on using a case for this model, but the response of the shooting public and law enforcement was so good, the company decided it was unnecessary to provide a presentation case (or, maybe it was just an experiment, I doubt if we will ever know).

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Old 01-01-2014, 11:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Engine49guy View Post


When referencing "COKES" on the forum its generally accepted the grips being referred to are N diamond targets with the larger checkered area that came on earlier Model 29's but the SCSW 3rd ed states "K" diamond cokes do exist as well as smooth presentation "Cokes" in both N and K frame sizes .
True, but the date ranges in my list only apply to N frames.

K Cokes shown here:
What should these stocks be on?

[QUOTE=Doc44]"Coke bottle stocks were made for K-frames. Some K-frame diamond targets have a very, very slight coke bottle profile, but not the larger checked area. The coke bottle profile is just an "unintended consequence" of the manufacturing method."
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Old 01-04-2014, 03:15 PM
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Doc,
Wondering if the non relieved presentations on your beautiful March 57 Combat Magnum letter as original ?
If so was it a special order or a presentation gun or was it made for general sale?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc44 View Post
Combat Magnum, March 1957.

Bill

Also searching a few older posts came across this picture Drew posted with K Cokes that have larger checkering area,

BTW, Do you think the right pair in the top pic are more likely early 60's rather than late 50's by the roundness of the checkering pattern compared to the ones on the left ?

Love the variations !

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebago Son View Post
Here's a few that have come to me in the past two months or so....

K-Checkered-Diamond-Football-Rosewood (Circa late 1950's)



K-Checkered-Diamond-Football-"Coke-ish" (Circa early 1960's)



N-Cokes-Goncalo. (for comparision)




Enjoy!

Drew

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Old 01-04-2014, 05:40 PM
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I know these are relieved, but I picked these up not to long ago, and thought they had the illusion of "cokes". I wasn't aware they were out there in K frames at the time.
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Old 01-04-2014, 05:52 PM
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The stocks that are original to the Combat Magnum you asked about are checked and made of Goncalo alves. I put the smooth stocks on it for a change of scenery.

I don't have an answer to your second question.

Bill
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Old 01-04-2014, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Engine49guy View Post
Also searching a few older posts came across this picture Drew posted with K Cokes that have larger checkering area,
Those are the ones I'd like to know about
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Old 01-04-2014, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fungunnin View Post
What is the general serial number range that saw k frames shipped with non relieved diamond targets?

Sent from my Motorola Flip phone.
The All Model Circular of 1950 shows a Combat Masterpiece with the new options of target hammer and non-relieved target stocks "with built-in grip adapter." There is some evidence that these options were available as early as very late 1949, but general availability is probably from early 1950. The earliest serial numbers in this time frame would be about K80000 give or take a couple of thousand. I do not know the lowest serial number observed on a K-frame that is confirmed to have shipped with non-relieved target stocks.

The relieved target stocks became available about four years later (I believe), but that doesn't mean the non-relieved stocks were immediately replaced by the design that most shooters considered superior. I'm thinking you could probably get non-relieved K-targets through the five-screw period and maybe even into the non-model-marked four screw period.
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Old 01-05-2014, 09:48 AM
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Paul...I may be way off base here, but I think the stocks you asked about were originally made for an N-frame and modified to fit a K-frame (not the first time this has been seen or reported). The checkering pattern and overall shape do not look like a K-frame stock to me (but photos can be misleading).

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Old 01-05-2014, 09:57 AM
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Bill I appreciate and value your expert opinion.The crux is I do the same for the owner of them. Kind of leaves poor me wondering.
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Old 03-18-2017, 08:19 PM
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As I have posted before- here's my blue 19 which I bought in Guam in 1967.
These are the original grips.
The Nickel 19 I got later on, I put the Diamond Grips on it.
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