Does anyone know, or wish to guess, of out of the 15,376 original Triple Locks produced, how many exist today. It just seems like, to me, for a relatively low production gun, a fair number surface on the internet, either in dialogues or for sale. It could be, due to its unparalleled popularity, they are more often bragged about or searched out than a less popular firearm of similar production of the same era (1908 - 1915).

There are at least 109 of them. Larry G. has (at least) 108----and I have 1. Although, now that I think about it, David Carroll has another handful or so for sale----or did have last time I looked.

Ralph Tremaine

ME! ME! I got one. ...But, in .455 converted to .45 Colt.

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

I have one too. A 5" nickel.

Hi
You can add my 21 to the list.
Jim Fisher

Triple locks
In collection

1. 3 7 ½ inch Targets
2. 2 5 inch Targets
3. 1 4 inch target
4. 2 6 ½ inch targets
5. 1 Silver plated 6 ½
6. 1 Nickel 6 ½
7. 1 5 inch Nickel
8. 1 45 colt 6 ½ blue
9. 2 6 ½ blue 455,s
10. 2 6 ½ blue 44,
11. 1 4 inch blue 44/40
12. 1 4 inch nickel 44
13 2 6 ½ blue 44
14 1 6 ½ king 44/40

I have 3. Only one of them has any original finish. 15000 may seem a small number but there were other models in the Century series and the first model did not sell out at the time. Any one that really wants one can buy a TL. Be prepared to accept some condition issues though. Guns get hard to find when only 300 were made would be my guess. I like shooting mine.

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Dennis

Dennis,-------------"Guns get hard to find when only 300 were made-------------."

You lost me! Only 300 of what were made?

Ralph Tremaine

I have two,A .455 converted to .45 Colt and a .44spl both 6 1/2".

I have (1) 44 special, nickel, 4" barrel #100xx. with mother of pearl handles. Was thinking about selling it, but still shooting it.

I think he's just saying that when a gun of any type/brand was made in numbers of 300 or less, that's when they become hard to find.

I believe he means that if 300 (or less) of any prticular firearm were made, it is difficult to find one or more of them, no matter what the firearm is. Just a guess...

I have one, 4" nickel with mother of pearl handles, # 100XX. Was thinking about selling, but still shooting it. Not sure if posting right.

I have one also. It is a 5" and it has been parkerized. Paid too much for it, but boy howdy, it is a real shooter!

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Someone needs to debunk these ugly rumors. First the one about how many were made, then others discussing their .45 Colt caliber guns that were rechambered, redrilled, whatever. One of the problems seems to be our willingness to accept the published numbers. So we've all read the number 15,375 or whatever. Except they made 2 of each serial number between 1 and 5000. The first ones were legitimate New Century Triple Locks. The 2nd 5000 were made for the Brits, or Remington Arms their stateside contact. And then we seem to have ignored the minor number or club guns, government test models, etc. If you read this forum you'll even see some of them in pictures.

And then the issue comes up about the production dates. I really don't understand that stuff, particularly with S&Ws. We can kind of guess they were making them about 1905 or 6 and we do know that the factory didn't produce or ship them in numeric order. As you start lettering them some seem to come up later, like after WWI when they finally escaped.

I've owned a few over the years, and I've still got a 4" Nickel gun. Its nice. And its less than perfect so it was cheap to buy. And I've even carried it concealed a few times. Its a worthy gun.

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Dick Burg

I have one as well. .44 special with a 6 1/2 inch barrel. SN 28**.

I have one. A 5" .44 Special. Not much finish left, but still a great shooter.

I am lucky to have found 4, all in .44 S&W Special caliber, 2 are 6 1/2" ( 1 nickel and 1 brown) and 2 in 4" with both lettering as nickel guns. Three of the 4 are refinished and one had to be restored mechanically by David Chicone, Jr. All are excellent shooters. Here are a few photos.

Delta-419, no matter how I count them, I come out to 3 guns pictured, not 4. Does that mean the other one is taking the pictures?

Seeing this thread doesn't make me feel any better, though. At least 15,000 of them built and I still can't find/afford one! You'd think Life would be more fair to a sensitive, hardworking amphibian like myself.

If anybody has an old 44 TL Target laying around doing nothing (barrel length and finish not a consideration) just drop me a line and I'll hop right over to be your new best friend.

Froggie

To answer the original question, short of a coordinated effort and lots of collector cooperation, any guess as to a survival rate is not possible objectively. Even with this it is possible that a large percentage (80%?) of existing examples would not be recorded.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

to bmg60
Jim,
I seem to remember seeing a picture of a triple lock in 7 1/2" target in 44/40 with the original holster.

I may be getting senile but I thought you posted the pic?

To comment on Op's question. It probably seems like there are more that just a few dozen out there because this is a collector's forum. We're more likely to 95% of the whatever % have survived.

Dave

One here. This was sent back to the factory in 1949 and again in 1950. Target sights were added then. It was my most accurate .44 special when I tried about 4 of them off the bench

I would be interested in the cylinder throat size of the triple locks. It is supposed to be a very accurate revolver, and throat size has an affect on accuracy. Later .44 Smiths seem to have a throat size around .432. So I am wondering if that was the standard back then too.

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Richard Gillespie
FBINA 102

Interesting question. I went and checked mine just now. My TL throats check in at .4315". (edited to correct number. I don't know what happened when I posted, but it wasn't correct. It is now)

All my other N frames in 44 are from before the endurance upgrades at which time the throats were tightened from .432" to .430" in 44 caliber S&W's. The original throat size of.432" which was std from the start of the 44 magnums matched the original Remington (and later Winchester) lead factory bullets, but are a couple thousandths too large to give the very best accuracy with later ('60's and later) jacketed bullets which were designed to match groove diameter of the barrel, and most lead bullets made since that time frame as well. Most guns with .432" throats will shoot very well with lead and even a lot of jacketed, but those made with .430" throats are really good shooters as a rule.

My triple lock guages at .432" in each chamber.

Dave
You are correct I have 3 7 1/2 Targets
1 blued 44Special
1 Nickel 44 special with a Extra Cyl in 44 Russian shipped in 1906 as a protype
1 Blued in 44/40 shipped in 1910 to seattle.

Jim

Most of my triple locks were purchased before every body started looking for them. I bought my first one in 1975.

Heres the story on the 44/40 7 1/2

Century Old Triple Lock Target 7 1/2 in 44-40 Cal.

Two years ago a fellow member of the SWCA perused my display at a Washington Arms Collector show in Puyallup, and took note of my interest in rare variations in S&W revolvers. Sometime later, an elderly gentleman approached him about selling an heirloom revolver. After meeting the gentleman and inspecting his revolver, he contacted me about adding it to my collection.
The revolver is an original parts matching Triple Lock Target in .44-40 Winchester with 7 ½” barrel. The package included a period correct shoulder holster and a box of ammunition. It was ordered by the 83 year old gentleman’s father, and shipped on February 28, 1910 to a hardware store in western Washington—one hundred years ago today. It has been in the family until now.
His father was an avid hunter, and after taking delivery, carried the revolver throughout a lifetime of adventures, including taking mountain lions. He wanted a handgun in the same chambering as the rifle he used while hunting, something more powerful than a .44 Special loading.
The revolver shows carry wear, and is definitely not a safe queen, but it is one of the rarest S&W revolvers ever made. In my long experience as a collector, this is the first revolver of this type and caliber that I’ve seen. I am very happy I was able to acquire it. I have other .44-40s-- Triple Locks and 2nd models, but this one stands alone.
I f anyone has factory documented information on similar guns that I can provide when I display it, please let me know.

Enjoy the information and the picture, this could be the only 7 1/2 Target made in this Caliber.
Jim Fisher

Heres the picture of the gun.

I picked this one up a couple years back in 44. Somebody cut it down a long time ago and was nice enough to add pre war magnas and re shape the sight. It's surprisingly accurate for what it is.

I was fortunates to acquire this 6 1/2" .44 Special Target a few years ago. It is still the most $ I have ever paid for a S&W although I've sold one for more money.
Of course, I have no regret. It is a fine shooting revolver but the sight combination is difficult for my eyes to see and I'm not about to rework the sights. This is a three digit special order with butt swivel removed for shooting with the Sanderson grips.
Seems to me, the problem is not so much finding a triple lock as it is finding a good one.

Thanks for the picture and the background of the gun.

When I first saw the picture I thought: "bet that's the only one ever in that configuration"

Heck they probably made more triple locks in 45 special (aka 45 frankford)

I know some of those were "club" guns. And I do believe it is frankford not Frankfort.

Thanks again
Dave

My only TL

I also have a 4" nickel TL. Good shooter with Trail Boss and 240 gr. LSWCFPs. They are not as rare as a LH 24-3 3" Combat if there are plus or minus 15,000 of them.

I'll bet the survival rate isn't the same...

I had only one. I bought it in 1969 from a classified ad in the Arkansas Gazette. The price was $85.00.

The story was that the seller had gotten it from a retired Pine Bluff detective. Anyway, he had sent it in to be refurbished at the factory. It was a .44 Special, the barrel was 3 1/2 inches with a ramped Bauman sight and an adjustable rear from a K model. There was a factory service mark from 1952 under the left grip. The factory re-blue was still in top shape. I carried that gun concealed for several years, finally trading it for the first Colts Combat Commander I ever saw. One of my sons still has THAT gun which I gave him when he graduated Louisiana State University in Monroe in the mid 80s.

This sad story is one of many that demonstrates how experience is mostly gained from stuff you screwed up.

Regards, Porkie

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Least expected, you’re elected

I got one from this guy ^^^

I have number 13XX. It is, as we speak, being "mortified" to this barrel length. Then off to Fords and when back this way fitted with MOPs. A famous S&W Forum member is doing the "bobbing" for me.

I saw two of them this weekend at the gunshow, both .44 specials with 6-1/2" barrels. One was a target model and one was a non-target model. The fellow that had them liked them a lot.

Add my 'pair of triples' too, please! Pix below.

Both 6 1/2 barrel & 44 Spl. Original & matching. Target model SN 10xx and HE in 137xx. Sadly, the target mistreated with strange scratches around the exterior of the cylinder and mainly on right side. Ironically, otherwise the gun decent!* In considerable contrast, the HE, pristine except for apparently varnished/some such, grips. Otherwise perhaps high ninety percent gun, to think? Both these with me many years!

*For some time considered swapping in a 2nd or 3rd generation 44 Spl cylinder. Any ideas of how far from 'drop-in' such project might be? Then of course too, a decent refinish.

My take

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The cylinder itself is no problem, they’re all very similar dimensions within a couple of thousands in length and diameter. But you’ll need a pre 1961 cylinder for a later extractor to work, because it must be right hand thread. The TL extractor will not align with the cyl alignment pins in the new cyl unless you move the pins. But you won’t want to fit the TL star prongs to the new cyl, it’ll fit sloppy in the TL cyl f you swap back.

The new ratchet will need the ctr pin hole enlarged slightly for the larger TL ctr pin; .020" larger to be exact.

A post 1921 replacement cyl will be heat treated until 1945. On non-magnums, the heat treating was ordered eliminated Oct. 12, 1945 on cyls as of with improved steel which negated the need for treating.

The importance of retaining the original TL extractor system is mainly because of the ext mushroom knob fitting the barrel notches and more importantly, the TL system is unique because the ctr pin is front loaded under spring tension. All other N frames have ctr pins that are rear loaded. That’s why you’ll notice the TL recoil shield does not have the divot/ramp to retract the ctr pin and close the cyl.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Don't know the survival rate, but can provide a good guess as to how many were born:

Estimated total number of Triple Lock Hand Ejectors in 44 Spl Including Misc. Calibers, and 455 Mk II

The “.44 Hand Ejector 1st Model” ‘Triple Lock’ serial # range is generally accepted to be 1 to 15375. As usual, not every serial # was used. The great majority of these were commercial models chambered in .44 Spl with the odd .45 Colt, .44-40, etc. Also included in this range are 812 chambered in .455 Mk II, 666 of this 1st batch produced for the British and in category #1 below. Pre production TLs include about a dozen chambered in the experimental .45 S&W Spl for the Army trials of 1906, some of which were turned into club guns; club guns total 20 in the Club Gun book.

Total 44 & misc cal. TLs:
So we roughly have a 15375 .44 TL serial # range, less 666 .455 TL contract guns = something under 14709 as usual, then subtract an additional 146 .455 TLs made and sold commercially with the 1st batch of .455 TLs = 14563, and subtract the last batch of 691 .455 TLs sold commercially numbered in the 12000 to 13000 range of the original 1 to 15375 serial range to get us to the total remaining of 13872 produced in .44 Spl and misc calibers in the 1st Model serial range TLs for the commercial market.

Total 455 TLs:
So we have 666 British contract produced military .455 TLs, and we have 837 (146 + 691) in .455 Mk II sold commercially all in the 44 # range, plus 5461 military 455 TLs in the British contract serial range for a total of 6964 .455 TLs.

Total TLs all calibers:
That puts the total regular production of all commercial and contract TLs in all calibers and both serial ranges at something approximating 13872 + 837 + 666 + 5461 at 20836, including a dozen or so 45 S&W Special (45 Frankford prototypes for the Army trials of 1906) as near as I can figure. Recognizing however that not all serial #s were actually built.

NOTE: There have been sightings and reliable reports of 2nd models with numbers that are lower than the usual 2nd Model serial range and T/Ls that are higher than the usual T/L range.

Triple Lock Target Models
If one were to presume targets were likely somewhere between 5 and 10% of total commercial production, that's 730 to 1460 target models.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

I think Elmer Keith blew up his fair share of them......

My only two:

With Ladysmith M frame; the only other hand ejector w/o a divot in the recoil shield to retract the ctr pin:



Factory TL target factory style Gold insert front blade:



Rear sight with super fine checkered surface:

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Prove it.

I get so tired of everyone bashing Old Elmer for his experimenting. I only know of two revolvers that he blew up. He seemed to write about all of his experiences, good and bad. He dang sure wasn't perfect, and he may have blown up more than he wrote about, but all of the respected old time gun writers that knew him stated many, many times that he didn't lie about his gunning. Those that saw him shoot said that the 600 yard deer, which he was trying to keep from getting away after being crippled, was well within his abilities.

Sorry for the rant, olskool, but that is one of my pet peeves.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Before the 44 Magnum existed, most of Keith's hi-test 44 Special loads went through a variety of prewar 44 Special N frames. He wasn't a particular fan of the 45 Colt, as one of the 2 guns he is known to have kaboomed was a 45 SAA. He thought the case walls and cylinder construction weren't adequate for "heavy handloads", but wrote in the 30s that the 45 Colt was among the best factory loads made.

Sent from my SM-J700T using Tapatalk

This is mine. Serial number 088 CLUB PISTOL.
From factory letter ".....is the lowest of the serial numbers (088 -099), but not the first one shipped. It shipped November 21, 1906. Could mine be the very first N frame ever made?

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Don Mundell

My one and only Triple Lock. Serial #24** Letters as a 4" Nickel finish, shipped to Belknap Hardware in 1912. Story was it was an old sheriffs gun from S. Alabama / N. Florida area.

Mine is SN 398. 44 Special. Barrel shortened to 4" and a reasonable re-blue done God knows when. I need to do something about the sights because the rear one is tiny (original) and the front one flew off when I fired the gun. I found it on the ground behind me and glued it back on but I would like to do something nice for this great old revolver, suggestions welcome.
Scott

I have a 5" blue 44 Spl that has been refinished. Gary

Only have one. Originally a .455 converted to .45 Colt. This gun has the British proof marks but no British Government/Military stamps. Other than shaving the cylinder it has not been molested. I have removed the "Wondersight" and replaced the fifth screw.

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Bill

I have one and only one. . .a 5 inch manufactured early but shipped late, as in 1913.

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Triple Lock With Ropers.jpg (151.1 KB, 16 views)

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Dr. B

That's a piece of history!

It looks like the barrel is marked 45. What exactly is it marked?

Is it 45 Frankford that needed that super high front sight?

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Jim
S&WCA #819

No
it is .44 Special. It went to a shooter named G. Allen, that's all I ever found out about him.

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Don Mundell