This one just walked in off the street while I was browsing at a gun show today! It's a .22/32 pre-war kit gun in absolutely excellent condition. I'd rate it at 98+%, marred only by a slight turn line on the cylinder and some miniscule muzzle wear. By the serial number, I'd estimate its DOB as sometime in 1940. Numbers all match, including both stocks. No box, unfortunately, but I could NOT pass this one up. Here are some photos to show you what I mean! Anyone have a suitable box???

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

John,

That is a an absolute Screamer! There are a few anomalies; as you probably noticed the Grips are post war as well as the thumb latch. There's an extra milling cut and screw in the rear sight behind the rear sight blade. Someone has added an elevation locking screw similar to the mid-1930s K frame 'two screw' sight. The finish has to be the highest polish I have ever seen on any Smith and I suspect it's been redone even better than a pre war factory finish. Have you had the grips off yet to check for stampings?

Even so, I wouldn't have let that one get passed me either!

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Jim
S&WCA #819

It may be the light but it looks like the bluing on the rear sight does not match the gun's blue.

The gun is gorgeous, the photography outstanding! Congrats on your nice find!

Thanks for the comments, Jim. The finish does NOT look like a re-do to me, but if it is, it's a damn fine job. I detect no obvious signs like dishing of stampings or bluing over rust spots. I don't know about the thumb latch - this gun is close to the end of the pre-war run (last serial of which was 536684 in 1941 according to my references); I'm not astute enough to know the difference. Maybe you can help me there. Both stocks are ink-stamped with the complete serial number, and are a perfect fit on the grip frame. They look like a match for the "transitional" stocks illustrated on page 118 of the SCSW 3rd edition which purport to show prewar guns. Note that the checkering comes down lower than on the postwar grips illustrated on the middle gun on page 119. The front sight is the USRA version. This is an I-frame gun; don't know where anyone could get postwar (j-frame?) grips to fit so nicely? The full serial number is also under the barrel and on the rear cylinder face. Don't know about the 2-screw rear sight - again, might that be standard so near the end of the production run? Further comments or observations welcome.

Best,
John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

It's the lighting. The bluing on the sight extension and the frame are an exact match.

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

John,

You just may have a Transistional post war Kit Gun; more rare than the pre war!

Yes, that is an amazing finish and expertly done! That was my 1st clue. Also there appears to be a slight gap in the sideplate at the top screw. I would pull the left grip and check for the trigger rebound slide pin being polished flat.

Pre war thumb latch; notice the double hourglass shape or double 'pinch' around screw hole with relief cuts under checkered pad shown on this K frame:




The grips are Post war I frame grips or could be J frame shortened 1/8", otherwise PW I and J grips are identical. They are a perfect fit and must have been fit to the grip frame; possibly sanded together when re-finished.

Your serial #53454X is lower than #534586 shipped summer 1940, and much lower than the last shipped pre war, 536684 in '41 as you said. Albeit he earliest known # shipped after the war is 534533 in 1950, and it's lower than yours.

That gun deserves a letter. As you can see, the serial #s can be way out of order. The 4 line address which was ordered in 1948 which could mean yours was shipped after the war, and it would be a "Transitional Kit Gun" which would explain the post war thumb latch and grips. I see no reason why someone would have changed the thumb latch!

One caveat, however, early after the war, guns returned to the factory had their frame stampings updated. This was a travesty to originality and Roy Jinks soon put a stop to it! So it's imperative to check for a rework date and maybe a star under the grip. Frankly though I don't expect to find one; stars on the butt were much more prevalent.

Although it has a pre war LERK (large extractor rod knob) and the reqiured notched barrel, there is plenty of precedent for pre war parts in inventory being used up after the war. I have not seen a post war Kit Gun with a LERK but yours could be the first!

The inked serial # on both grips is out of character, should have the digits stamped into the wood on inside right grip only.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

P.S. The LERK appears to be making contact with the rear edge of the notch in the barrel as shown in the photos, and the white line worn around the rear of the LERK seems to confirm it. This is not uncommon.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Thats a beautiful .22.

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S&W Accumulator

Very, very nice. I'd love to have one like that.

Looks like somebody done beat on the firing pin retaining pin.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Jim,

Here are some additional photos of the grip frame and the stocks. Please excuse the flash pictures - colors may be altered somewhat from actual.

Perhaps you can make some additional inferences from what you see here.

As soon as I can, I'll try to get Roy to give me a month and year of shipment on this baby.

Thanks for your help.

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

very nice find John. that one would have come home with me too.


Charlie

Positively Superb! I am eating my heart out you nasty man.

Cheers;
Lefty

John,

To tell you the truth, the more I see of this gun, the more I'm thinking it's a righteous Transitional Kit Gun and a rare version!! But we have the problem of all post war guns only having satin blue finishes!

The pin is polished flat which is not the protocol for pre war guns but certainly is for post war guns. The machined washers on I & J frame grips is unheard of by me, but so was everything else when I saw it for the first time! So are ink stamped grips except on after market Smith guns but never with the guns serial #. And especially so is the locking sight screw!

The truly superior finish appears more and more factory custom to me and the very clever sight lock screw does as well. You just may have a one-of-a-kind employee built-for-himself gun. I'm really having to think outside the box on this one! I'm dying to hear what Roy can tell you about it!
If Roy says it's a "no record" gun, I'd be convinced it's a factory custom for a friend of the Wesson's, salesman's sample or employee gun.

Congrats,
Jim

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Jim,

I think the photo below lends credence to your belief that what we have here is a post-war transitional, with a serial number that should have been in the pre-war last batch. I didn't expect to see this, but this gun definitely has the safety block!

The number stamped in the sideplate matches the assembly number found on the crane.

I think I just opened a post-Christmas Christmas present!

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

Bravo John! You just clinched it's pedigree! I have to admit I completely forgot about looking for the post war safety. I wonder if this was a mid war shipment to still have the bright finish????? And new safety block?

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Jim,

AND I have to add that those plate screws came out very stiffly, and the innards were dry as a bone. I don't think the side plate has been off since it was produced. I lightly lubed it. And YES I used carefully fitted screwdrivers and was VERY careful removing and installing the screws. Thank God I knew the proper procedure for loosening the plate. Whew. I can hardly wait for Roy to answer his next batch of serial inquiries and that I can get in line before the max of five fills up. I'll enclose pictures for him to view - he may suggest getting a factory letter, but of course I'll do that anyway.

Best,
John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

one word...dang!

(beautiful!)

What a beautiful specimen!

With the exception of a few .32 HEs, I had never seen an I frame with a serial number lower than 534600 that shipped after WWII. From statistical data I have estimated that all guns numbered 534451-534600 are prewar Kit Guns. I have 534507, 534527 and 534566 in my collection, and I know of 534571, 534576 and 534579; all these late-numbered specimens shipped in 1940.

Strangely, in light of the numerous postwar features, your gun also has the small logo on the left side of the frame and not the large logo on the sideplate, which is typical of I-frames manufactured after 1937 (though there is some inconsistency in the small logo/large logo location on known prewar revolvers). And just to complete the list of oddities, note that presence of the patridge front sight blade; on this model that is a prewar feature. The postwar transitional Kit Guns almost all had the USRA pocket revolver front sight, which is a half round blade with a small step at the top of the arc. (As I sit here thinking about this, I can't remember a single postwar transitional KG with a patridge blade. Somebody please inform or remind me if they know of one.)

I'm thinking that this is a prewar frame that for whatever reason was not built out until the postwar era, at which time it got the postwar features that you and Jim noticed. I agree that a letter will be mandatory to appreciate and understand all the mixed features seen on this one. One possibility is that a completed prewar gun was sent to the service department to be brought up to postwar safety design standards. The old sideplate would have been discarded when the new safety block was installed, and the small logo and four line marking could have been imprinted at that time to meet current production standards. The prewar barrel, ejector rod and attached sight could have stayed. The rebound slide would have been replaced to be consistent with the new hammer block safety, and the hammer would have to have been reshaped.

Whatever the story, I am quite envious of your find. I will be interested to learn the date of shipment. I don't at the moment recall a postwar transitional KG that shipped before 1949, and several shipped in 1950. I-frames were generally slow to go into production after WWII as the company played catch-up on commercial N-frame and K-frame orders that had been delayed for five years.

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David Wilson

Check out the rear sight on this K-22 (post no. 66):

K-22 Outdoorsman Appreciation and Photo Thread

I knew I had seen something similar to the rear sight screw setup seen in the photos in your first post, but it took me a while to find it.

I can't trust my visual perception on close-ups, but is the foot of the sight on your new revolver wider than what you usually see on I-frames? I wonder if it could be a K-frame adjustable sight pressed into service on an I-frame. Or were the sights the same dimension? If I weren't so tired at the moment, I would dig into the safe and pull out a couple of specimens to do comparisons.

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David Wilson

Great Gun!!! Congrats. I love the rear sight and set screw, and I remember commenting on the one that David references above (which had the hole and the milled "platform" but no screw). It is great to see what it looked like with the screw. The gun looks righteous to me. However, I think that the stocks may have been added post factory, as I have not seen any ink stamped like that (but there is always a first...)

Here is 534617 and consistent with David's records (post 534600) it did not ship until 12/13/1951!!!



Note the early post war mat blue finish.

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Richard
Engraved S&W fan

Wow, just wow. It looks like you have found the Hope Diamond of Kit Guns. That one should be on display under guard at a museum (or in my hands being shot ) Congratulations!

I can't wait to see what the factory records show about it.

Froggie

Question:

Are the patent dates stamped on the top of the barrel? I don't see any. If smooth on top, wouldn't that be a post-war barrel?

It's a beaut!

Curl

I'll bet you didn't haggle too long on that one. And to think there have been posts about why some never go to gun shows any longer! Oh yeah, never give up on the gun shows.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

The blueing on that is stunning. Congrats on a nice find.

John, There is a story with your gun. I hope it's documented somewhere. If not, you still have a very nice gun. My opinion is that you have a pre war gun with a post 1949 finish. Your gun has that "black glass" look. A finish that is just about as good as it gets (almost too good), which is common to the finishes on guns manufactured at Smith & Wesson's new plant on Roosevelt Avenue. I am perplexed by the grips. The ink stamp just isn't common until you get into much, much, later guns. My gut feeling is that it was refinished sometime in the 70's when there were still a few guys left in the factory that could pull off a finish like that. Maybe it was a personal gun by one of the workers and that's how it is without a refinish date or mark, but did receive a 4 line address? I'm just speculating of course. Either way..... Good for you!

Chad

Chad,

John's got a post war gun with a pre war finish. Post '49 finishes were satin until the mid 1950s, c. #20,000 on the Kit Guns. (Except for the optional bright blue on the large frames beginning in the early '50s.)

This Kit Gun is the earliest post war Transitional KG (details above in several posts) with the most pre war features that I've ever seen before on a PW Kit Gun.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Jim, I am talking a mid 1950's (post 1949) finish or later. Unless the pics enhance the quality of the finish it doesn't look pre war. Like I said I'm just speculating. The finish looks more like what is on my post war .32 Regulation Police Target. Which was made up of pre war parts, but shipped in 1956.

Chad

Ok, gotcha', post, post '49. But even my PW .32 Target bright blue finish doesn't look that good.

John's Kit Gun looks like the turn of the century polish and bluing on my 44 TL!

The finish and the extra screw in the rear sight are the big anomalies on John's gun!

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Jim
S&WCA #819

The top of the barrel is clean. The only stampings are on the sides (illustrated), and the serial number on the bottom on the flat above the ejector rod.

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

Someone mentioned a "black glass" finish. That's exactly the way this finish looks when one sees it. It actually sparkles, it's so striking. That's what caught my eye when I first saw it. As I mentioned before, I see NO signs that it's a re-finish.

As someone posted before, similar sights have been observed on K-frame target models - a picture was posted of one with the rear screw missing. This one is intact. I have no idea of comparative measurements on the sight; the only other I-frame I have is a Bekeart-style .22/32, but it has an unusual aftermarket sight. It's posted on my S&W album on the forum.

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

K and I frame rear sights are different sizes and will not interchange.

Is it possible the gun is black chromed? That's what it looks like.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Jim,

I'd have to say that it's blued, primarily because of very slight bluing wear at the muzzle. I would imagine any kind of chrome finish would be more resistant to that.

And I did hear from Roy today! Here is what he said:

John, and all other members, if you want my help please provide the full serial number of the handgun in question as then I can help you generally. John, in the case of this kit gun I cannot be specific as you blocked out one of the numbers. However I can tell you that serial numbers falling between 534501 - 534532 and 534563 - 534586 were all shipped in 1940 and would have full prewar characteristics. The serial numbers 534533 - 534562 were shipped in 1950 & 1951 your guns is in this group and they were a mix of old and new parts. All the revolvers after serial number 534586 were shipped also as post World War II revolvers. I hope that this answers your question. Roy
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Roy G. Jinks
Historian, Smith & Wesson

So, the question of "when shipped?" is partially answered, as is the fact of the mixed old and new parts. If it was shipped in '50-'51, the enhanced high-polish bluing could also be explained. I'm still waiting in line to give Roy the full serial number and get a month and year of shipment. I'll also request a factory letter.

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

I saw Roy's response that your gun is in the 534533 - 534562 range that shipped in 1950 & 1951 which I already had but mis-read the #s I guess!

But it doesn't solve the bright blue finish issue. Kit Guns were satin clear thru 1956. Unless whoever ordered the gun paid the roughly 30% premium cost and talked someone at S&W into putting a bright blue finish on an I frame! Because in the 1955 catalog I have, it wasn't offered on the I frame.

However, the letter should show if it was ordered with the bright blue non-standard finish.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

For a closer inspection of the details on the gun, I posted an album set of the pictures here - they are somewhat larger.

John

Smith & Wesson Forum - PALADIN85020's Album: Unusual "transitional" .22/32 kit gun

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

As we both have learned, never say never with S&W! There was never a high-polish Model 64 cataloged either, but I have one, complete with factory letter...!

I'll get the factory letter request off to Roy tomorrow!

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

I see in your photos you mentioned the Gun has a "Bug" screw,I must be missing something as I do not see one?

I apparently mis-spoke. I was referring to the upper sideplate screw. I'll correct that!

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

Look under the barrel flat and under the extractor. If there is a big "B" it could mean a special order bright finish.

Chad

Chad,

There is a capital letter "R" in both locations. Any idea what this would mean?

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

John, To be honest that's the first time I have seen a single R stamped on a gun. I have seen a R-B on the grip frame signifying a reblue. I have seen a diamond underneath the barrel flat and on the cylinder meaning a replacement part or rework of some kind, but never a single "R".

Chad

Maybe somebody here on the public side can identify the "R". If not, post it on the SWCA side and I bet Roy can tell you what it means.

Chad

John and Alex,

You're both correct. The top sideplate screw is the Bug screw in factory terminology. The little locking screw on alloy frames is also called a Bug screw in the gun industry!

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Why is it called a .22/.32 "kit" gun?

I am speechless. There is nothing else I can say.

Kind of a marketing term. A four-inch small frame .22 was a compact gun that a fisherman or hiker could carry in his pack or "kit" during a day out of the house.

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David Wilson

Like David said a marketing term "of the time". Many products can be dated by their names and marketing. Back in the day Kit or Grip was popular vernacular for what one carried or packed their stuff in; shaving kit, fishing kit, tool kit, hunting kit, etc.

The handy new .22 model with 4" barrel was much more compact than the 6" .22 of the previous 20 years and easier to fit in one's kit. They had to do something to offset the thinking back then that a barrel had to be long to be accurate!

Other words from earlier in the century that were very popular are Perfected and Ideal. There are a couple of Perfected Model Smiths and lots of ideal products, including reloading tools that became Lyman.

Just like today's 'Smart'; everything is smart, smart phone, smart this, smart that. Just Marketing fad words!

But I like "Kit Gun".

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Jim
S&WCA #819

This thriller is more exciting than Masterpiece Theater. I am breathlessly awaiting the next episode.

Roy says about a 20 week wait once he returned from knee surgery.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Chad,

I asked Roy, and here is his reply:

The "R" indicates and in house rework of the revolver. The gun was recondition probably after World War II before the factory could sell it. Roy

This makes sense to me. The gun was retained from 1940 production and updated with the hammer block lockwork and more recent stocks. I'm betting that incredible blue was also applied as part of the "rework."

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -