Anyone know the numbers? total post war long action k frames, and further, snubbies in this category?

I seemed to recall there was someone on this forum who focused on this category. I find it interesting too. Your help is appreciated.

The one I'm looking at is local and priced to sell, square butt, mechanically excellent, worn with no pitting or signs of abuse (80% finish), sharp shoulder magnas. The price is good, but I would like to have some perspective on numbers on this type.

I know for a fact there is at least one.




Charlie

That's a beauty, a little cleaner than the one in question, but very similar.

The SCSW notes a minimum of about 180,000 post war long action .38 M & Ps, S 811,000 to 990,000 (roughly). If someone here has an educated guess as to the percentage of those that were 2", there is your answer. An uneducated guess on my part would be 15-20% by observation, but the real experts may know for certain.

Edit for bad math!

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Wow, that's a lot.

I can vouch for another one. Mine is S936150 and looks like it just came from the factory.



Curl

This one shipped February 1948

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Rick
SWCA #2727 , SWHF #435

1946

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Sure you did

Some of the postwar long-action S-prefix K-frames were not standard .38 Special M&Ps, though most were. There are the 2000-3000 Model of 1946 Target revolvers (the Mexican model); some .32 Long M&P revolvers in various barrel lengths (number unknown, but perhaps several hundred to 2000); and I think some postwar Commonwealth guns in .38 S&W (a South African order for about 5000 revolvers comes to mind, but I may be remembering a contract for short-action revolvers after 1948). At any rate, I think the total postwar commercial (and new non-wartime military) .38 Special production would have come to no more than about 170,000- 175,000 units. Most of these would have been for uniformed law enforcement officers or security guards, and those would typically have had four, five or six-inch barrels. My own guess is that two-inch M&P production before the short action was introduced would have been no more than about five percent of the total -- maybe 8500 units, give or take a few. Even that may be an exaggeration. In a world in which patrol officers and uniformed guards greatly outnumbered detectives, other plainclothes officers and security section administrators, how many compact .38s would you have to produce before the market was saturated?

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David Wilson

I just cycled back to this post, thanks for all the good info.

Charlie
Have you reported that one to me? I have one 2" in the database that belongs to you with serial number S960xxx. I assume this is it.
CptCurl - I know I don't have yours recorded. A PM will be on its way to you.
Thanks.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

I suspect you were remembering my project.

Nearly 20% of the S prefix guns reported to me so far have the 2" barrel. However, there are two reasons that no conclusion should be extrapolated from that fact.
1. The overall sample size is still too small to reach even tentative conclusions.
2. The majority of my data (perhaps 80%) have been gathered from people who participate in this Forum. The people with snubbies tend to like to share about them, etc. So, since self reporting has driven the data collection so far, it may be skewed.

That said, I suspect David's estimate is not far off. The actual number might be a little bit higher, and the database at this point would seem to indicate that 2" guns became more common the farther you get away from the war years. Roy has confirmed that the earliest production went heavily to LEO agencies. Much of that production is not yet accounted for in my records, but there is a disproportionate number from the early serials that did ship to agencies. A large segment of the very early shipments went to the NYPD. These LEO pieces were all 4" and 5" guns, according to the information collected so far.

The gun in Ladder13's photo is the earliest 2" gun so far recorded in my database. It shipped in April, 1946.

Here's a photo of one in my collection. It shipped in September, 1947. Its serial number is very close to the one shown by CptCurl, above.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

Rick

I have S970479. VERY close to yours. Identical Configuration

Yep, that's the one pictured above.

Charlie

Here's my hard chrome #S 9515xx.

20140418_232115 (1024x576).jpg

20140418_232146 (1024x576).jpg

I traded for a 2" snubby # S9623XX and a 4" # S9474XX at the start of the year.

In the last 5 years I have only seen 3 for sale at gunstores pawnshops and shows but have seen maybe 50 of same era with 4" and 5" barrels.

last one was 3 years back but dont recall its serial,
The ask was $450 and I almost bought it but for some light pitting passed...still regret that.

One thing I have always found interesting is even in the pre war snub M&P's they never used the barrel end ejector rod tip so in a way these snubs are the forerunners to the modern ejector rod style.

This was purely practical. With the 2" barrel you barely have enough throw to get full extraction. Of necessity, the full length of the rod must slide into the tunnel in the yoke or ejection would be incomplete. This was not an issue on the longer barrel guns.

But the original MERK required a two step machining process for the bottom surface of the barrel. In 1927, this was simplified by the introduction of the LERK, which only required a simple cut in the barrel's underside.

Finally, someone realized a large efficiency could be achieved by making all the rod ends uniform, thus eliminating any necessary machining on the barrels and simplifying inventory. That led to the change order of October 4, 1946, directing a change to the extractor rod knob on all M&P revolvers, regardless of barrel length.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

This is one of first 100 2 inch M&P shipped after WW 2 shipped 08/22/1946 Serial 833889 small s after number.

Toyman
Thanks for the post. I show that gun in my database to be the third earliest 2" yet reported. The earliest one I've located was shipped in April, 1946 and carries serial number S816xxx.
I have a few questions for you, but one is whether those stocks came on the gun. I tend to think not, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

No serial numbers on inside of plastic grips either did not stick or were never there. These guns were most likely made up from left over pre war parts and I believe the plastic grips are correct to the gun.

I have sn,S843454. It's a square butt.

I don't know if you are also keeping track of the later fishhook style but I've got a Detroit gun serial number C43659. I posted it in a thread a few years ago:

Smith and Wesson M&P Detroit PD gun from 1948

Jack, I have S 968903, 2", long action, sq. butt, one line address, the blue gun on the left, the nickle one is a C series.

Just read through that older post. Very nice DPD snubby you picked up there. Congrats!

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318