At the last show i was shown a S&W that had a ball detente on the bottom of the crane. Never noticed that before.Guess the question is why and is it factory

Pre-WWII N frames, including the original triple lock, had a cylinder detent inside the yoke. It holds the cylinder open to facilitate reloading. They might have also put it on other models but someone else will have to speak up. If you saw a ball detent in front of the cylinder in the yoke that locks the cylinder, that is a modification and is not factory.

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

Some recent special production guns that lack the ejector rod end lock have a ball detent on the yoke installed from the factory; if it was an older gun it was an aftermarket modification. I think it was popular with PPC revolver conversions.

Edit to add: Sorry, the OP wrote the "bottom" of the 'crane' - my mistake.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

There is/was a range command (which I do not recall) calling for competitors to open their guns and lay them on the table. The purpose of the detent was to help keep them open. So says Joe Miller-----who has forgotten more than I know about bullseye shooting---back in the day.

In the for what it's worth department, my observation is the detent disappeared from the N frame models just prior to WW II, and from the K frame models a few years earlier.

Ralph Tremaine

I have a 38/44 Heavy Duty manufactured in 1931 and it has the detent. I have a K-22 Outdoorsman made in 1936 and it does not have the detent.

I also observed another 38/44 HD from 1931 where the detent was missing, but the indent was still there where the ball used to be.

I wonder how common it is where the detent falls out or is removed.

OK, back to basics. A detent is a hole or relieved area. The detent was in the frame, down where the crane pivots. Inside the crane is/was a hole. Just a hole drilled into the crane. With the crane closed (cylinder closed, too) the position was straight up from the bottom.

Inside the hole was a spring and then a pin. Maybe 3/8s of an inch long. The spring tended to stick in the hole. Often the pin came out at high velocity, and usually downward. If you were lucky you felt it hit your ankle or shoe. At least you knew it was something leaving the gun.

Often the spring remained stuck in the hole. I developed a really good cheap way to recover the spring from the hole. I found an old and really cheap fish hook. I straightened it out and shoved it in. Out came the spring, stuck to the hook. The spring and hole are then easy to clean with any aerosol solvent. You can make a new pin the right diameter just by purchasing a numbered drill bit and cutting it off the right length. Then hold it with a pair of pliers and grind the end to a round shape.

I'm not aware of it being an option, but I've seen both K and N frame guns with the pin installed.

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Dick Burg

How do you think I found out about the detent on my m1917 Brazilian? Sproing!

Question- does it appear on any post war transitional guns?

I have never observed one yet and I always look. But I would not be surprised to find a transitional with the cyl hold open pin-detent. Models with a detent dimple and hole that should have them, are often found with the pin and spring missing, frozen in place or with non-factory replacement parts.

Here's what I've gathered about them and doubt that it's complete:



The cylinder hold open device or detent was introduced on the very 1st hand ejector, the .32 HE Model 1896, 1st Model. After the second model it was dropped from the ‘I’ frames but was used and continued on pre war K frames* beginning on the 38 M&P Model of 1902, and last used on the 1902-1st change, and all pre war N frame HEs[My 1917 #139230 has it.]**. An example of old world panache Smith was known for that we won't ever see again.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

The new 69 I purchased came with the ball detent on it.

Yes----on the transitional 357----one of them at least. I can't speak for any other transitional N frames.

Ralph Tremaine

Détente - the easing of hostility or strained relations, esp. between countries.

I guess if you show enough revolvers in the right place, at the right time, you might get this...

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Pisgah

Ralph,

Thanks for that confirmation! Knowing how all things S&W transitioned, it had to be; another validation of the interesting uniqueness of transitional models.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Very common. Most of the time, if it is missing it's because somebody didn't know it was there and when they pulled the crane out it went 'sproing'. Parts like that always tend to wind up in the most inaccessible spot in the shop.

Well, I'd like to argue that point. The round pin sometimes ends up on the floor, right where you're going to plant your heal as you walk out. And even if it looks gummy, it'll roll under your heal. You may stay standing or not. But its like a murphy's law. And you're in the crosshairs.

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Dick Burg

My 1919 shipped 1917 serial number 153876 has the detent on the Yoke.

I found my first one when I tried to put the yoke back in. The pin was sticking up and prevented the yoke from being inserted fully. This was early in my pre-war S&W accumulating and I was sure I had destroyed the gun by disassembling it and not knowing about the pin. The pin was not lost and I fumbled my way to putting it back together to my great relief.

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John. SWCA #1586

Thanks Alex,

That's another datapoint.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

If anyone finds themselves with a need to reproduce the pin and spring its' simple. The pin/ plungers range in length from.540” to .570” no matter what frame size and those pins I have miked are .100” to .101”.

The drill bit shank of that diameter works well with one end rounded, and any coil spring of enough tension to hold open the cyl that fits in the hole.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

According to the mysterious engineer, cited by Neal & Jinks, who kept notes on engineering changes, "March 10, 1919. Order to discontinue the yoke stop in all models by J. H Wesson."

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Why, I aughta.....

My grandfather's Model 1902 has it, but the ball has worn flat and is no longer functional.

John

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- Cogito, ergo armatus sum -

My RM has the yoke ball/detente set up, but the plunger is missing. It shipped in 1935.

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Richard Gillespie
FBINA 102

I believe that all of my pre-war 357's and 38/44 Outdoorsmans have them.

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Richard
Engraved S&W fan

John,

It's not a ball, it's a pin. Pull it out and turn it around, there should be a round tip on the other end. Give the little spring a little stretch and a drop of oil; you should be back in business.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Hi Mike,

I don't believe that refers to the cyl hold open detent. Refer to another note regarding moving the yoke stop; to the right of that note in the next column.

In any event the cyl hold open detent was not eliminated.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

An older thread but similar situation. I recently obtained a VG Condition (VG++) S&W M1917 that had some minor work done to it (trigger job, new front sight, custom grips)... but is also missing the "Yoke Stop" amd the "Yoke Spring". I can get a Yoke Spring from Numrich Arms for a couple bucks... but they are sold out of the Yoke Stop. I assume that is the pin?

My experiences with S&W revolvers were the Model 10 (10-3, then 10-5) Heavy Barrel models, a Model 28 Highway Patrolman, and then also a S&W Model 10-5 2" Barrel as a primary Backup and off-duty Carry and a S&W Model 38 Airweight as a secondary Backup and Backup Carry off-duty the first few year in LE (BTW, I still have all of those except that Model 28 - which one day I will replace). Anyway, I don't recall any of those having this described setup as on the S&W Model 1917. And Lord knows that I have cleaned all of them beaucoup times!

I also have a (also recent purchase) Colt New Service large frame in 45 Colt and a (long ago purchased, easily 40-45 years ago) Colt M1917 - and neither of those seems to have that same setup... and the Colt M1917, which is a real tack driver, functions just fine. Even though we transitioned to auto pistols in the mid 1970s, I always kept up with the revolver reloading drills as we were taught.

My question is this.... How vital are those parts to normal operation - or were they just an ease in reloading? Can I get away without replacing? Or should I buy the spring and have the yoke stop (assuming it is the pin) made up from an appropriate size of old drill bit and replace? (Numrich as the complete Yoke Assembly, but only in case-hardened color - and it is over $50 not even counting S&H)

Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass! They are not essential. They just conveniently help keep the cylinder from closing while reloading. However, it is not difficult to make the pin. That design was pre-war on K and N frames.

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Guy
SWHF #474 SWCA LM#2629

Just find a drill bit that just fits the hole. I may be a numbered bit instead of a fractional one. Then round the blank end of the drill, then, cut that end off so you end up with a piece about 2 times its diameter. This is one thing a cut off wheel in a Dremel is good for. Now you have a very functional pin when the spring arrives.

Guy is right, non essential, but very handy if you tilted a loaded large caliber cyl and had it swing closed on a fingertip.


From my posts above:

The cylinder hold open device or detent was introduced on the very 1st hand ejector, the .32 HE Model 1896, 1st Model. After the second model it was dropped from the ‘I’ frames but was used and continued on pre war K frames* beginning on the 38 M&P Model of 1902, and last used on the 1902-1st change, and all pre war N frame HEs [my 1917 #139230 has it and all others I've seen]. An example of old world panache Smith was known for that we won't ever see again.

If anyone finds themselves with a need to reproduce the pin and spring its' simple. The pin/ plungers range in length from.540” to .570” no matter what frame size and those pins I have miked are .100” to .101” in diameter.

The drill bit shank of that diameter works well with one end rounded, and any coil spring of enough tension to hold open the cyl that fits in the hole like a Bic lighter spring clipped in half.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

This one is in my M&P 1st Model, 1899.
Thought we needed a picture.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

A BIC disposable lighter contains 3 springs, one of which is the correct diameter for the hold open detent, and long enough to make a couple of them. Hondo provides the correct length in a post above.

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Tom
1560

That's what makes this hive worthwhile!

And here I was going to tell you you could get a Master Coil Spring kit from Brownells for a mere $99.99-----plus shipping! The good news is I don't care what you're looking for, it's in this kit----or you can make what you need from what's in here.

Bic lighters cost less---and also make fire!

Ralph Tremaine