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S&W Hand Ejectors: 1896 to 1961 All 5-Screw & Vintage 4-Screw SWING-OUT Cylinder REVOLVERS, and the 35 Autos and 32 Autos


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Old 03-22-2014, 11:18 PM
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Default Pre war N frame grip frame size question

I've seen mention of a size difference in pre war N frames compared to post war N frames. Are the pre war frames an eighth of an inch longer in the butt?

I checked SCSW and searched this forum and did not find the info. I am sure it is here, just didn't find the right search terms to locate the discussions.

thank you for the assist.
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Old 03-22-2014, 11:28 PM
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You are correct...A little bit longer on the Pre war N Frames...
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Old 03-22-2014, 11:28 PM
05CarbonDRZ 05CarbonDRZ is offline
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I would say they are closer to 1/16" longer,maybe a tad more.
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Old 03-22-2014, 11:28 PM
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They are generally longer, but not by .125"... More like less that half of that.
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Old 03-22-2014, 11:29 PM
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The prewar grip frames are just a little longer. An 1/8", a 1/16"? I'm not sure.


Late again.
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Old 03-23-2014, 02:24 AM
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Wow,Four replys within One minute......
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Old 03-23-2014, 05:20 AM
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Sorry, I was sleeping. The prewars are just a tad longer.
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Old 03-23-2014, 09:02 AM
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Default thanks for the quick answers

That was quick, thank you. I noticed it when trying to fit some stocks.

Is the longer pre war grip topic covered in the SCSW? I looked in the glossary under pre-war, frames, and reread the frames and stocks section in the opening chapter and read the 38/44 and .44 sections in Chapter V for mention of the change and did not see it.

Is there any info on why the frame was shortened?
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Old 03-23-2014, 09:32 AM
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I've heard the same, but here are some early post war grips on a 1940 NR Magnum... and the grips are a little big.

I wonder what's up... I'll swap out the grips and see how some others fit.



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Old 03-23-2014, 01:15 PM
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Sometimes we seem to forget that stocks were fit to each individual gun. Machining wasn't digitized yet so each and every gun had to be hand fit. I think this ended somewhere in the sixties where you no longer find serial numbers on stocks. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.
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Old 03-23-2014, 01:39 PM
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I've measured quite a few sets with a depth mic and have not found a set yet that was over .040, most are closer to 1/32 longer. digi-shots, what you may have if your magna grips are early enough is a set of transition grips on a non-registered frame that has the shorter postwar type frame. That is one of my favorite photos, never get tired of looking at it.
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Old 03-23-2014, 02:24 PM
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Keith,

I think you've hit the nail on the head.... the gun was sent back to the factory in December 1952 and a month later in January 1953. These stocks were on the gun when I got it.

Thanks for the kind words... it's a fun gun to photo!
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Old 03-23-2014, 02:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by digi-shots View Post
I've heard the same, but here are some early post war grips on a 1940 NR Magnum... and the grips are a little big.

I wonder what's up... I'll swap out the grips and see how some others fit.





That is an amazing NR Magnum...If you ever decide to Part with it...Could I please get a Call, Email, PM....Anything...

Simply Amazing...
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Old 03-23-2014, 06:03 PM
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Default summing up?

The discussion so far starts by confirming that pre war N-frames were a bit longer than post war. If I understood Keith Brown, that difference is less than .040" or about 1/32".

Later discussion seems to point to pre and post war size differences caused by manufacturing variation more than any blueprint design change.

If pre war frames are generally longer than post war, is it possible that new post war fixtures or tooling produced a more consistent and shorter N-frame?

BTW, beautiful photos and revolver.

Last edited by bulldog06; 03-23-2014 at 06:07 PM.
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Old 03-23-2014, 08:17 PM
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Default more thoughts

Thinking about this further, I was hoping to find that there was a WWII era engineering change at S&W that created a new, shorter N-frame. To me, a change in the blue print specification is the only clean explanation.

Dan's comment about the consistency of CNC machining is valid and he is a much better craftsman than me. However, even pre CNC machining, I can't believe the machinists and inspectors at S&W would have accepted frames that varied from the specified blueprint dimension by .030". Also, the discussion indicates that pre war frames were consistently larger than post war. To me, a consistent variation in frame size would mean a different pre war blueprint spec.

Like the change to the hammer block safety and S serial numbers, I would have thought the shorter frame would be documented somewhere in the excellent S&W references. Guess I am too used to the post model number dash engineering change system clearly listed in SCSW.
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Old 03-24-2014, 05:34 AM
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I'm sure that the machining operation that finished the overall length of the butt frame was produced on some type of automatic production machine. I've seen pictures of some of Smith & Wesson's production equipment here on a post showing machines such as kingsbury and Jones and Lamson. This Equipment was designed and built in a toolroom some where to produce a certain feature. There was usually not much adjustment to hold size. The cutter size was often times the only way to adjust the process. The operator of this type of equipment was in most cases not a highly skilled trades person. I would venture a thought that a change in cutter suppliers or some other variable may of caused the change in size. Most often when this occured the engineering staff would tweek something down stream like the grip making machine, where a adjustment was easier and would not interfere with production. Sending the fixture to the toolroom for adjustment was usually the last thing they wanted to do cause it would stop the production flow. Just some over thinking from my old production manufacturing mind.
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Old 03-24-2014, 06:13 AM
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How do the K frames compare between pre-war and post-war? Is there a similar difference noted?
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Old 03-24-2014, 11:36 PM
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I have to jump in here again after reading the thread again. I can't give an answer as to why the change was made or even exactly when but I'm absolutely sure it was not because the equipment or operators of that equipment were incapable of better accuracy. I was a journeyman screw maker running and job setting Acme-gridleys , Brown&Sharpes, Davenports and the mentioned Kingsbury, along with a bit of experience on a few others. All of these machines had stops to control final size, all of these machines with proper gears and cams and good final setup would run most any material within a couple thousandths total tolerance, many jobs with special tools and fixtures ran closer than that every day and this at a rate that CNC operators can only dream about. In addition these people were indeed highly skilled trades people. In my last couple years working in the shop I also operated a number of CNC lathes and saw first hand how accurate they can be, and delicate, and slow. Guess that's a bit off topic, sorry about that.
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