I recently acquired a S&W 2nd model in an on-line auction out of Vermont. They had listed it as a .44 Special 1st model, which I knew was incorrect because of the lack of a lug. However, I could make out (in the single picture provided) what appeared to be Canadian or British marks, and crossed banners on the frame. I then figured it was a .455. I bought it based on that assumption.

It arrived today. I am very pleased with its condition. The part that was down in the holster (S.D. Myres El Paso included) was very nice, and there were flaws in the blue where it was outside of the holster. The cylinders and bore are mirror bright and the action is tight.

Serial number is 8363. It indeed had the crossed banners on the frame by the barrel, and has the up-pointing arrow, crown over F7 and E, and the II on the frame by the grip.

OK - so to my questions.

There are no caliber markings on the barrel. I noted that in SCSW, it says that many/some of these were converted to "45 Colt", and that a good way to tell is to see if there is no serial number on the cylinder face. I notice that there is none in this one - and noticeable machining marks where it looks like it has been shaved down.

OK - ignorance showing here - when they say 45 Colt, do they mean Long Colt? Or .45 ACP? I also read something about .45 auto rim. How do I tell? I presume if 45 ACP, I will use half moon clips? Is there anything to be concerned about in shooting it?

Also, I am curious if I got a decent deal on this. I paid $501 for it after commissions and shipping.

Thanks all.

If the cylinder has been shaved it is probably converted to 45ACP with moon clips.If you have a 45ACP sitting around try it in the cylinder.

OK I did that with a 45 ACP I had. Is it SUPPOSED to look like this?

Nope,Looks like your Gun is .45 Colt.It is also called .45 LC for Long Colt.

Does the rear face of the cylinder show the serial number? If not, the cylinder has been shaved for .45 Auto w/half moon (or full moon) clips or .45 Auto Rim. (You have to use the clips for ACP or the case will drop into the cylinder as pictured)
If the cylinder has also been reamed out it will accept .45 Long Colt, but there might be a bit of a problem with headspace if the shaving was for .45Auto.

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

OK - I notice there is a chamfer (if that is the correct term) partway down the cylinder. 45 LC seems a LOT longer than 45ACP. I guess I will go buy some and see if it fits. Thanks

deadin - no serial number - obvious machining marks where it has been shaved.

My guess is that you need some clips or Auto Rim brass.....

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

The side view that I can see doesn't appear big enough for 45 acp+moon clips. I going to guess this is still the original .455 or it has been converted to 45 Colt (often referred to as Long Colt). I fond one very close in description that had been "sleeved" to 38 Special.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

Your revolver has been "shaved" to accept .45 ACP in moonclips or .45 Auto Rim without. The unclipped ACP drops into the chamber because the .455 throat has the gradual taper of a revolver (rimmed ctg) rather than the sharp shoulder of an autoloader (rimless ctg. headspacing on the case mouth).

Hope this helps,
Larry

Thanks to all for your input. Any particular moon clips that will work for this?

H R, It has been shaved so it no longer is for the original .455. It hasn't been reamed (throat is still there) so it isn't for 45 LC. The only thing left is .45 ACP w/clips or 45AR.

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

Incidentally, no one has answered your question about the price you paid. FWIW, I think you got a good deal, regardless of the mystery caliber.

Gives you a reason to experiment! And once you figure it out, you can have a lot of fun carefully repairing the rust and stuff (don't re-finish...it's worth more in its well-maintained as-is configuration).

The cylinder will be shaved whether the conversion is for .45 Colt or .45ACP, either one. The .45 Colt has a thicker rim than .455 in addition to having a longer case body. If .45ACP, enough has to be removed from the cylinder to accommodate moon clips or the extra-thick rim that .45 Auto Rim has. (.45AR is essentially a rimmed version of .45ACP with the thickness set up to duplicate ACP + moon clips.) Full moon steel clips can be had from ranchproducts.com or tkcustom.com. There are also some plastic moon clips that are easier to load and unload.

Also - dude, you're in Texas. You should be able to take the gun to a local gun shop and ask them to see if a .45 Colt round will chamber and headspace correctly. If not, try .45AR or .45ACP with clips.

Forget the plastic moon clips. They break too easily. EBay sells the full moon clips for very little. They are not hard to load but a pain to unload. Buy the small hand held tool to unload them. It is just a bent piece of steel that works very well. There are also expensive mooners and de-mooners but unless you plan on shooting hundreds of rounds they are not worth the price.

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Tom
NRA Pistol Inst

For what it's worth, I had a Webley MK VI that'd been shaved for .45 ACP. That worked, in clips. But the gun wouldn't quite close with .45AR ammo. The rims were just a mite too thick. These conversions differ slightly in quality of work and dimensions.

Be advised that your cylinder IS NOT heat treated, as were the M-1917 US revolvers. The govt. made S&W heat treat them. They didn't start doing that to their line in general until about 1920. Don't use hot loads. The .45ACP operates at several thousand lbs. more pressure than does the .455 ammo. On the other hand, I've never heard of these guns cracking a chamber or blowing the cylinder in .45 conversions. Skeeter Skelton did have a cylinder fail in a M-1917 .45 that he'd been using with hot handloads recommended by Elmer Keith. I'd not load even a M-1917 much beyond std. factory specs. I wouldn't load a converted .455 even that hot. Where does that leave you, if you don't reload?!

You seem to have sort of bought a pig in a poke and are lucky that you fared no worse. The photos make it look as if there is extensive rust and/or pitting. The hammer alone looks awful. But if it's mechanically sound, it should be safe to fire.

Some here will counsel against refinishing. That's a knee-jerk reaction of most collectors. But the gun is a visual mess and has been re-chambered for a different ctg. I'd say that purist collector value is already low. If it was mine and it shot well and worked smoothly and I had the money (and if I reloaded!) , I'd give it a high grade refinish. It was originally a very well made gun, a joy to own. I'd be very careful about who does the rebluing. Many so-called gunsmiths will overpolish and round off sharp edges and obliterate lettering. Another possibility is a refinish to one of the chrome plates that look like stainless. But you're basically pouring money into an old gun that has seen better days and won't take modern ammo well. You couldn't sell it for what you'd have in it, so you'd have to be rich and love it and see it sentimentally.

Did I misread your OP, or did you say that you saw the gun only in photos where it was in a holster? Never buy that way! The gun may well have serious finish or other issues . If they're hiding it, there's something wrong, usually. Guns stored in leather often have rust from moisture or from tannins in the leather.

Can you picture the Myres holster? If it's in good condition, you have a significant find there. Myres made some of the best holsters, ever. They are now collectible. I hope the holster is in better shape than the gun?

If it helps re value, the last one of these guns I saw was still in .455 chambering and was in about NRA Good to Very Good condition. It was priced at about $1100 for sale in a store oriented to collectors. (Jackson Armory in Dallas. Actually in Snider Plaza, in suburban University Park.) This was maybe two years ago.

What were you trying to get when you bought this gun? Considering its condition and the ammo issue, you could have bought a more practical gun in far better shape for $501! If you're a would-be S&W or British Martial collector, you would need to pay a lot more for a gun like this in decent shape. But the holster may be a worthwhile find. I'd really like to see it.

I hope I haven't been too discouraging. Many here will be sympathetic and try not to make you feel bad for having bought a gun in lousy shape, for an unknown cartridge! I prefer to be brutally honest, in hopes of helping you in future buys and helping others who may read this. I should mention that I am very discriminating and just won't buy a gun in less than Very Good Plus to Excellent condition. To get one that good in this model will take a lot more cash today than you spent. It hurts to recall that I spent $31.58, sales tax included, to buy one bordering on NRA Excellent conditon at Gart Bros. in Denver in 1964 or '65! What hurts is that I had to sell it for college tuition when a GI Bill check was late. If I had that gun now in that condition and was willing to sell (improbable!), I'd ask at least $1200.

I hope I've helped and didn't sting too badly. But I think you deserve the truth. And if you shoot it, safety issues apply.

P.S. I can't tell in these photos if the right side of the gun is badly pitted or if I'm seeing just missing bluing. And maybe a GOOD gunsmith can buff off the rust on the cylinder face without changing dimensions. And the grips/stocks look quite good, considering its age.

No problem Texas Star. I am more of an accumulator of shooters than I am of pristine items. I have taken 2 pictures below of the worst of the finish issues. I really did buy this as a shooter. No, the picture was not of the gun in the holster. In fact, I had no idea a holster was included until it arrived today. I also am including a couple of pictures of the holster, which is in beautiful condition. Nothing fancy, but the quality is amazing. The bluing is in surprisingly good shape forward of the cylinder. Mechanically it is in great condition with a bright bore and cylinder. I would call the pitting very minor, just enough to take off the blue. One little "smaller than a dime" spot on the left side of the frame that is a bit worse.

If it actually works with 45 ACP, that's OK with me as I am not a reloader, and it is already a caliber I shoot.

Rather than buy a whole box of ammo that may not fit, why not go to a gun shop and see if they have a fired round of each .45 Colt and .45 Auto Rim? Of course if you take the revolver in with you, be sure it is cased and clearly unloaded. Tell them what you want to do and ask permission to uncase it. They will be a lot happier to help you run your tests with spent rounds rather than live ammo.

The .45 Auto Rim will no doubt chamber all the way (since a .45 ACP "falls in"), but gently try to close the cylinder with one or more .45 AR chambered. My guess is the cylinder will not close. You could perform this same test with .45 ACP in moon clips if they do not have any AR.

Then try the same test with the .45 Colt. They may not chamber all the way. If they do, the cylinder still may not close. If that's the case, it's probably still in its original .455 Webley chambering. But I'm betting the .45 Colt will chamber and the cylinder will close.

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You're shy a few manners.

If you look closely at pictures #4 and #5 of the original post it looks like there is a pretty good gap between the cylinder and the recoil shield.
I'm going with 45ACP in clips or 45AR.....

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Dean
SWCA #680 SWHF #446

That's what I'm guessing too.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

You have a Border Patrol style holster of the sort that I think Chas. Askins designed in the 1930's. I believe these were also widely worn by Texas DPS troopers. But yours is for a longer barrel than usual and is probably pretty uncommon

If you haven't yet done so, post about it in the new holster forum on this board. The moderator is Turnerriver. He is a holster authority and can probably tell you the collector value of such a Myres holster. Remember, a holster collector, if you can locate one, will pay a lot more than a casual gun owner.

Unless you just need the money or truly don't care about the holster, I'd keep it with the gun.

The new photos make it clear that the gun finish isn't as bad as I thought.

Just a couple of follow-up pictures. I got some full moon clips and loaded them up with 45 ACP. This is what it looks like - I presume this is right? Thanks all.

That's a bingo. Happy shooting!

I just wanted to follow up on this post as I was able to go out and shoot it for the first time. It shot very well, after I got used to the REALLY tall front sight. I had never shot a revolver in .45 ACP before. I shot a .45 automatic right before it, and couldn't believe how much less recoil you feel. I will say that the grips are really small-feeling for a revolver this large. I was really having to think about gripping tight - it felt very nose heavy.

All said though, it was a lot of fun to shoot.

I think you did just fine with your purchase. $501 including shipping etc. is a good deal for any S&W N frame even in the condition you show and the converted cartridge. Most of those guns went to WWI and many also participated in WWII. In addition to having a good shooter you have a real piece of history. The S D Myres holster is a bonus; some of those go for several hundred dollars although the service type you have is probably worth somewhere between $50 and $100. Enjoy.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

This is exactly why Tyler-T grip adapters were so popular. Get one and it will feel much better when shooting. Tyler has a website so must still be in business. Slip one on and you will be good to go.
I think a lot of felt recoil with 45 auto is the slide slamming back then forward. I have noticed how much less the revolver recoils too ..my favorite 45 acp's are now revolvers , now that I have one. And no more chasing down fired brass.
Gary

I agree $500 is an excellent price. I had a 1st model that had been similarly modified. It had really big throats so hornady .454 swaged cowboy bullets seated way out with a mild load of unique was the ticket, very low recoil, shot to POA and was very accurate.

If you are not a reloader, please re-read the cautions on firing factory 45ACP in this revolver. The 455 was designed to produce a round 14,000 psi, while many factory 45 ACP rounds will go around 22,000 psi. That is around a 30% increase in pressure from original design, so use caution.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Thanks Gary - I put 24 rounds through it today. I am not a reloader (yet) but have been thinking about it strongly.

There are some factory 185 gr SWC loads that are meant for target shooting. Known as "soft ball" loads. Around 770 fps. Should be OK. I handload so I would just use a start load for 45 ACP with a lead bullet.

Any S&W large frame revolver is expensive these days. I would just enjoy this one. I think you will find it is well worth the price.