I do not think Smith & Wesson ever used the term Pre-Model... but it seems to have become a term used by collectors to denote guns manufactured post World War II up to the point of model numbering around 1957-1958. Is this correct? Is there anything else connected to this term? I'm just looking for a point of clarification.

At least for the M&Ps, the "pre-Model 10" collector designation extends from approximately S990000 (1948) to approximately C438000 (1957). The new short action/high speed hammer was incorporated at the former SN, and continued thereafter. The Model 10 stamping started at the latter SN. That's all there is to it.

You are correct Smith and Wesson never used the term. I am guilty of using the term myself some confusion comes in because Smith and Wesson now calls one of their auto pistols a Military and Police and another small auto Chief Special. Most hard core collectors use the correct names. Clear as mudd dont ya know.

The term "Pre-Model" is shorthand . . . but often raises more questions than providing a convenient label.

In its most literal sense, a pre-Model 10 could be any Military & Police revolver made "prior to" the assignment of the Model 10 designation in '57-'58. Used by many, useful to some, but confusing to most.

In an attempt to narrow the pre-10 label (as DWalt points out) collectors have tried to apply it to only those M&Ps that have the exact design feature set as those that received the Model 10 stamp. One doesn't need to be here long to realize it's an uphill struggle . . . but we keep trying!

Russ

Another way to look at it is that the 1948 short-action M&P was, for all practical purposes, mechanically identical to the earliest named Model 10 of 9 years later. Hence, "pre-Model 10" fits and has a precise definition. But in the broadest sense, the Model of 1899 (and all later M&P models made prior to the 1957 Model 10) would also be legitimate "pre-Model 10s" due to their direct ancestry lineage to it. But that's not very useful as a workable definition. S&W couldn't very well have used the term "pre-Model 10" prior to 1957 as the Model 10 designation did not even exist. Someone at S&W would have to have been a psychic to know in 1948 that there would be a Model 10 in 1957.

They had names, then they had model numbers and some still had names also.

It's a good legitimate question. In collector 'verbal shorthand', the term Pre-Model X came about as a way of differentiating between a gun that was stamped with a model # and one made before # stamping began, but was otherwise the identical gun.

So instead of having to say, for example: "I have a gun just like a Model 36 but it's not stamped Mod 36", it was shortened to: "I have a Pre-Mod 36".

That tells the listener immediately that it's not a Baby J. It has to be a Model of 1953 .38 Chiefs Special. If you used the term pre model for both a Baby J and a M1953, further conversation is then required to establish what's really for sale!

Screw count 5, 4, or 3 screw (depending on the frame size) is further used to distinguish between Pre Models. There is a Pre-Model 36 (Model of 1953) 4 screw and a 3 screw.

I frames are worse; the post war Transitional I frame, Improved I frame and Model of 1953 New I frame are all pre models in a general meaning of the phrase, but ONLY the Mod 1953 in the correct meaning of the Collector term is a true PRE-MODEL.

The SCSW book's own description of "Pre model" Pg. 153 (3rd ed.) as used for the K and N frames conflicts, lacks consistency and creates confusion with its own briefer definition on pg. 423 and its use in regard to the post war I frames in that it lumps some I frame models together as pre-models. This creates a lack of distinguishing between them when they are actually all very different.

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

While clearly the factory never used this term prior to 1957, the factory certainly does use the term today and has for a number of years.

The factory historian - Mr. Roy Jinks - is known to use this term in factory historical letters. Mr. Jinks is also member #1 of the Smith & Wesson Collectors Association and one of the worlds foremost S&W Collectors. You don't get much more of a "hard core" collector than Mr. Jinks.

If it is good enough for Mr. Roy Jinks - it is good enough for me.

__________________
Dave

With all respect to Roy, I do not use or like the term "Pre-Model". All S&Ws made before 1957 had a name, so I feel it is important to use what the company called the model until numbers were introduced. I agree that it is an easy thing to do, but when the revolver was made, it was called something, so why not leave it that way? Call me old fashioned, but I also still use the term "stocks", even though the company now uses "grips" in their published literature. What a travesty!

__________________
Gary
SWCA 2515

Gary,

But using the name exemplifies the problem and the reason for coining the term "pre model" and others in the first place; like transitional, baby J, 5 screw, 4 screw, etc. And other terms needed even after Model #s like 4 screw, 3 screw, pinned and recessed, etc.

The Model name or number does not tell us what we all want to know when discussing these revolvers or plunking down money for them, i.e., exactly which vintage is it???

None of those terms are factory terms and none of us would be satisfied with a description that didn't include them! Would anyone be satisfied with just the model name of or pay the same for any "Model 44 Magnum", the official model name? No! We would want to know if it's a 5 screw or 4 screw?

Or just "Model 38 Chief's Special"? Heck no, we would want to know if it's a baby J, round sight, ramp sight, pre model, pre model 4 screw, or pre model 3 screw? Or "Model 36"? No we would want to know if it's a flat latch, diamond grip, pinned barrel, MIM, right? And we would not just be satisfied with the factory dash # because we all know that dash #s are not always accurate.

There's no rule that anyone has to use any of these collector terms but the fact remains that they save a lot of extra verbiage, prevent misunderstandings and clarify revolver discussions, therefore have a very useful purpose. And also to have a correct understanding of the terms to use them correctly, especially "pre model". Like Lee says; "A Model T Ford can be called a pre model Thunderbird, but is it really?"

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

OK, to remain "correct" what is the name used for a pre-27 1952 5 screw N frame?

Now I'm really confused. I've got a nickel .38 that looks like a Model 10 with serial in the S 980000 range. I've always referred to it as a pre-model 10.
So what is the correct model?

Jim - I certainly understand the simplicity in using "pre" terms to describe a revolver, but we seem to be so careful to use the terminology of the era a given revolver was made, and I guess I see the use of original catalog names the "proper" way to identify. Adding 4 or 5 screw, etc. to the definition further specifies what the revolver we are seeing, but so does the serial number in most cases.

I especially do not like the Pre-Model used with the Masterpiece line, and I think it has started to spill over in gun sales sites, where sellers simply identify a Masterpiece as a Model 14, 16, 17, 18, no matter how early the gun was manufactured.

I guess a Model 1899, 1902, and 1905 should be a Pre-Model 10, but we don't we use the "Pre" term for the M&P line? We also do not call the Model 1903 a Pre-Model 30, and there are more examples. I guess it just boils down to a personal preference.

__________________
Gary
SWCA 2515

Based on the serial number it should still have the pre-war style long-throw hammer. If so, you have a .38 Military & Police.

Shortly after yours was produced . . . at around s/n S990XXX . . . the action was changed to the short-throw "speed" hammer already in use on the K target series. At that point you would have still have a .38 Military & Police but it could also be called a pre-Model 10 because it had the exact same features as a 1958 vintage M&P that received the added MOD 10 identity.

Does that help any?

Russ

Most guys know the Smith line by the model numbers.Fewer guys know the earlier guns by the terminology of that era.Calling them pre-models,is an easy point of reference for the gun being discussed.For example,calling the assorted flavors of M+Ps a pre-Model 10 makes them easily reconizable as a sightless K frame 38.

If a post 11/13/50, and post s/n ~ S75514, .357 magnum it's an official S&W model name; ".357 Magnum Model of 1950".

Because a '52 vintage is virtually the same as a post 1957 Model 27, in collector terms it's a 5 screw pre model 27 to specify a pre 1956 vintage.

To specify a post 1956 ".357 Magnum Mod of 1950", it's a 4 screw, pre model 27.

A model numbered, post 1957 Model 27 can be a M27 pre dash 4 screw or a M27-1 4 screw. And if post ~ 1961, a M 27-2 3 screw. As mentioned above, not all dash number stampings are accurate, and not everyone has the dash numbers memorized, hence the 4 or 3 screw usage.

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

Gary,

You make all good points and I'm not suggesting we have 'collector terms police'. Just trying to explain the reasoning. I am firmly in the camp that people should speak and describe to their own preference. I never warmed up to the pre model term and in fact don't use it. It only comes up in my discussions when someone confuses me or is confused by it's misunderstood usage. I like to hear or say '.44 1950 Target' for example. To me that carries the same panache as the gun itself!

Model 1899, 1902, and 1905 or Model 1903 are hardly "virtually the same" as the Model #'d counterparts, so no. I would call that a 'Model T is a pre model TBird' analogy.

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

You could call it a .357 Magnum (which is its full name, since it was the only one on the market when it was introduced), but most would also call it a pre-model 27.

__________________
Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

" Originally Posted by welldoya View Post
Now I'm really confused. I've got a nickel .38 that looks like a Model 10 with serial in the S 980000 range. I've always referred to it as a pre-model 10.
So what is the correct model?"

You have your choice:

1. Just calling it a plain M&P is OK.
2. Some call the post-WWII revolvers "Transition Models." I most emphatically do not and never will as there is no basis for it. But if you want to, go ahead.
3. You could also call it a Post-Victory or a Postwar or a post-WWII M&P
4. Finally, how about calling it a pre-pre-Model 10?

2. I believe only immediately post WW II revolvers with both pre war as well as post war features and are in transition, are called Transitional Models.

4. What are you specifying by calling it a pre-pre-Model 10? That it's different from the 38 M&P pre model 10 because it's in transition?

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

2. There is no transition during this period.
4. I have no idea what you are talking about.

I dislike and don't use the term.
I was also going to mention Roy Jinks uses the term in his books.
Mr Jinks is an integral and important figure of S&W collecting, but thankfully, we all have the choice to use whatever terms we like.

It doesn't help that the company's instruction manuals used both terms, one above the other for years. Ie: Model 36 , The Chiefs Special.

2. There was "the process or a period of changing from one state or condition to another." You can call it whatever you want or not call it whatever you want, like I said, it matters not to me. But there was a basis of something during this period.

4. Oh yes you do....

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

You have a special version of the official S&W named "Model .38 Military & Police" that was produced after WW II. But it's a very unique 38 M&P. It's a version that was in a production process period of change or transition, between the WW II versions thru 1945 (with old style hammer and long action) and the more or less final version (with a new hammer and new short throw action) reportedly attained on April 7, 1948.

Therefore to clearly identify and communicate its unique status, you may wish to specify, as most collectors do, that it's the 38 M&P version from the transition period or a "Transitional Model 38 M&P".

The significance being that it's a lower production volume version from a small window in time and usually more collectible and sought after.

I hope that helps.

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

The M&P line started in 1899 and continues to this day, so it would make perfect sense to call all 38 Specials on standard frames, with service sights and similar external design and appearance a Pre-Model 10.

You are not correct to compare a Model T with a Thunderbird, but rather it would be more appropriate comparing a 1955 Thunderbird to a 2005 Thunderbird. Sure the design has changed, but the company still used the same name. The 1899 certainly looks more like a Model 10 than a 1955 and 2005 Thunderbird.

What I am trying to say is that the Pre-Model designation might as well be used all the way back to the origins of each model. It sounds like neither of us like that, so why use the designation for just a fraction of the "Pres" that were made? It is no more appropriate to use the term on Post-WWII guns than it is on early HEs.

__________________
Gary
SWCA 2515

I think to whom you are speaking to may direct how the term "Pre Model XX" might be used and defined. To the general public, that is used to seeing a few S&W's and know a few Model numbers, the term "Pre Mod XX" helps them understand the gun was made before about 1957. To "Collectors", the specific name, 1905, 4th change, etc. is meaningful. What we have t keep in mind is many of the participants of the forum are just here making one or two inquires and never return as they are not dedicated collectors.

__________________
H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

Hey gang,

As long as the other person your talking to/describing the revolver to, understands what your talking about, does it really matter? Like my old grand daddy used to say. Quit picking fly poop out of the pepper.

Yes, you are right that it's not a major issue.

As far as nit picking - if we all followed that advice there would be precious few threads on any hobby forum, including firearms forums.
It kind of goes with the territory......

I have a 1958 K38 Masterpiece, sn K 320xxx with no model number on the frame. Smith & Wesson told me it is a Model 14 Transition model as it was built on a 1957 frame.

sbrmike,

Yes that's correct but a transition model generically speaking and with a small 't'. Not to be confused with the "Post WW II Transitional Models" as described and segregated by collectors.

As is typical in production, many guns were already in process, and past the frame Model # stamping stage when the order game down in 6/57. Therefore it's an unstamped Model 14.

This also happens with dash numbers. Guns are in process and past the stamping stage but get the change or new parts associated with a particular change order represented by the dash # in a later stage of assembly.

For example; Model 14s can exist that are stamped Model 14 but they have the extractor rod change from right-hand to the new left-hand thread and should be stamped M14-1.

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

There are named guns....then model numbered guns.

The named guns used stocks from the stock department. Model numbered guns used stocks from the stock department....for a good while.


Then S&W went all "touchy ...feely.." and started calling them grips.

giz

__________________
Non gratum anus rodentum

Thank you,

".357 Magnum Model of 1950" it is. but Ill probably write it like this,".357 Magnum Model of 1950, sometimes referred to as a Pre-27"