Factory engraved 1903 first change target AND it’s likely the work of Oscar Young!!!
Last year, in August, I located this revolver for sale. Of course, it had been refinished but I still felt the revolver was attractive. The revolver is a 1903 (32 S&W long, I frame) first change target, with a 4.25 in barrel. It has factory pearl grips and a very nice presentation case which I hoped was a factory case. On top of all of these neat features, the gun had very tasteful engraving – one may even suspect factory although at the time, this was simple speculation.
When I was looking at the revolver, many people wrote the package off because apparently many people noticed the reblue and the light pitting on the cylinder before anything else. I, like many of you, was seduced and intrigued by the engraving before I thought much about the finish. At the very least, I felt it was the work of a very skilled engraver – not the work of an amateur.
A friend of mine informed me the possible value of the case, and I realized I had to buy this package because despite the refinish, and even if the engraving was not factory, there was a value in the sum of the parts. Aside from that, the gun itself, despite the refinish and unknown origin engraving (at the time), was still of course, a very scarce S&W 4.25 in 1903 1st change target.
Approx. 1 month after getting the revolver, I had not yet sent the letter request in. It was at that time that my wife and I decided to separate and ultimately divorce. This started a chaotic time of my life. For months, I was too stressed to think much about this pretty little revolver I had acquired, so it sat in my gun safe. Lucky for me, my ex-wife did not go after my gun collection! Earlier this year, I started to get my life back on track, and I finally sent the letter request in the Jan/Feb time frame. I anxiously awaited the letter every day after it had been about 3 months only to learn that Roy was AT LEAST that far behind in responding to letter requests. Finally, to my surprise, I got the letter on Sat July 5 and I was just like a kid at Christmas. I got inside, opened the letter, and my hopes were answered, the letter read “style 2 engraving” !!!!
Like Lee said in his thread about the possible factory engraved M&P target, often times, engraving detracts from a revolver. For many, having any engraved gun is special but this is akin to saying any Ford Mustang is special. Of course, that may be true, (esp. if you compare a Mustang to a pickup truck) but there are different levels to anything like this and just like with Mustangs, not all engravers or engraved guns for that matter, are equals and of course, the devil is always in the details.
Enjoy!
If anyone has a screw for the rear sight, please let me know!
And the letter...oddly enough, my only other EK Tryon S&W is also a factory pearl grip gun - a 32 "bicycle" revolver which shipped in 1939. Apparently EK Tryon was around for many years.
As I said, the case itself was the difference maker for me in this purchase, since I had a rough idea what the factory pearl grips were worth and what the revolver was worth as a refinished, non-factory engraved (did not know without the letter) 1903 target.
Around the same time that I acquired this revolver and case, an 1891 single shot cased pair was auctioned by RIA. Here is a pic of those guns in their case. Note that the case is very similar to mine. If anyone has any info about my presentation case, please let me know!
1891 cased pistols
My case
Now of course, just owning this example of a factory engraved S&W does not make me any type of an expert. I know that Oscar’s younger brother, Eugene, was also employed by S&W at the turn of the century. I suppose it’s therefor possible that Eugene could have engraved my revolver, but his style is slightly different than the style of my gun.
As many of us know, Harry Jarvis (another prominent S&W engraver) started with S&W in 1905 but there is some speculation that he did not start off as an engraver for S&W. FWIW, I always found it amazing that Jarvis did not retire from S&W until 1958, after putting in 53 years with S&W! Here is a photo of the work of Harry Jarvis, which is very different than the work of the Youngs:
Oscar and Eugene Young were the sons of one of the greatest firearms engravers of all time, Gustave Young. Gustave Young was born in Germany in 1827 and immigrated to the US in 1846. In 1852 he joined Colt’s engraving staff. He left Colt’s to run his engraving shop full time in the early 1860s. Gustave was then employed by S&W from 1869 to the early 1890s. Gustave passed away in 1895. Gustave’s eldest son, Oscar, was born in 1854. Oscar worked for S&W for approx. 20 years, from 1891 to 1911. Oscar Young would pass away in 1912. Oscar’s younger brother Eugene worked as an engraver for the Elgin Watch Company before working for S&W for approx. 10 years. Eugene came to engrave for S&W after Oscar started, and worked for S&W around the turn of the century.
The name Gustave Young of course speaks for itself in the gun collecting community and esp. in the gun engraving community. Gustave’s impression on gun engraving was immeasurable. Aside from engraving and inlaying some of the most beautiful and valuable revolvers that there are, Gustave apprenticed many other engravers, and some went on to be famous in their own right. On top of apprenticing his sons Oscar and Eugene, Gustave had another apprentice, Conrad F. Ulrich, Jr. Conrad and his brothers, John and Herman, later became famous Winchester engravers after him and his brothers all apprenticed under Gustave Young. Gustave Young’s engraved pieces were prominently featured in S&Ws display at the 1893 Chicago World’s Fair "Columbian" exposition. And if all this was not enough to showcase the greatness of Gustave Young, it was Gustave that developed the S&W monogram logo that we all know and love today!
Here is a photo of Gustave Young (left). This photo was part of the Young family photo album which was auctioned off last year by RIA. It was in the collection of R.L. Wilson prior to being auctioned. I wonder if the boys on the right are in fact Oscar and Eugene? Apparently there was a third brother, Albert, who was perhaps the “black sheep” of the family
Here is a S&W 44 Frontier that is just one example of the beautiful work by Gustave Young. This revolver was auctioned last year for $155,000 by RIA. It was part of the 1893 exposition display by S&W.
Here is a photo of Oscar (left) and Eugene Young (right). This is a photo of p.122 of the Images of America: Smith & Wesson book.
Here are photos of a 44 DA that was said by RIA to likely have been done by Oscar Young. It was factory engraved FWIW. The engraving motif and style closely matches the engraving on my gun. This gun was auctioned by RIA in 2011.
Here is a photo of Eugene’s (top) and Oscar's (bottom) work side by side. This photo is from p.196 in "Steel Canvas" by R.L. Wilson. Steel Canvas is a great book which depicts gun engraving from several eras and many different engravers.
Due to the evidence above, the engraving on my revolver more closely resembles the work of Oscar Young than anyone else IMO. Of course, however, if anyone with a more experienced eye has anything to add, please do!
__________________
}-----Jim----->
~SWCA #2732~
Last edited by Göring's S&W; 04-12-2016 at 01:34 AM.
Very nice gun and case!! Don't know who made the case, but it does appear to me to be the same as the RIA auction case. The case corner joints were very nicely done and the same on both cases.
Did the RIA auction say anything about a letter for the 1891 cased pistols? Maybe it was EK Tryon too, and the case maker is located in Philly. Since the case appears to be fitted to the gun, and back in those days sending stuff in the mail was not as easy as today, I would guess the case maker was local to the gun owner. You probably have already tried this, but did you look under the "trays" in the case for a possible makers mark?
Beautiful revolver, and the showcase work of Gustave Young is simply amazing. But then what do I know - I have both a '66 Mustang Coupe and a F-150, and I prefer the truck. After all, ever try to haul a cubic yard of mulch in a Mustang?
Great set !! -- a gun that's very rare to begin with - target-sighted .32 HE's are few and far between, more so in the short barrel length, and factory engraved to boot -- awesome !! Oscar Young engraved, no doubt about it at all.
That fine box you have is a factory white-oak, chamois-lined case...the same as was used with other deluxe guns, such as the Single Shot and Combination sets you pictured. It was made specifically for this gun, evidenced by the fitted - recessed outline.
Congrats on a wise purchase, definitely one to really enjoy !!!
That's a fantastic revolver. I really like it a lot.
And I am sorry to hear that your marriage dissolved. I am fortunate in that it's so far so good with my wife and me after 29 years together and 23 years married. I have seen my close friends experience the heartbreak of divorce and it's not something I would wish to endure.
Now all you need is a floral carved Tryon marked Heiser holster-they sold Heisers with their own mark on them.
Outstanding set and a really informative write up - thanks for taking the time to do it.
Regards,
turnerriver
That fine box you have is a factory white-oak, chamois-lined case...the same as was used with other deluxe guns, such as the Single Shot and Combination sets you pictured. It was made specifically for this gun, evidenced by the fitted - recessed outline.David
How about that? I never knew the factory did such a box. That is why I like this forum so much. What time frame were they made?
One of the more interesting and informative posts I've seen on this forum, and illustrated with photographs of some premier examples of the gun engraver's art.
It's also nice to put faces with the names of some engravers.
Beautiful work, and again...a most informative post.
Normally, engraving has not been my thing....pretty, but I was never really cared much (to busy with working "tactical pistols"). The last year, for some weird reason (which I think is an age thing) I felt I NEEDED an engraved gun. I nearly pulled the trigger on an engraved Model 10 snub that is likely a Texas Ranger retirement gun. I ended up leaving the shop with a 3.5" mid 50's Nickel Pre 27 with ivories that I planned to get engraved. I was talked down by more logical heads. Next up a chrome and gold U.S. Property 1911 that I got very cheap out of a shop because it is so pimpy and gaudy. I figured I'll do that gun as it is already jacked up. Luckily, did some research and found it to be one of the rarest and most desirable WWII era Colt 1911's made. That one is getting professionally de-chromed and restored to its original finish. So........next up, the decision has been made to do my 3.5" 27-2. It has a ugly scar from the factory grips on the sideplate anyways and has been carried. Found a local guy who does gorgeous work. It will be my 50th birthday present to me. This thread has given me some great ideas on patterns as I love the way the revolver in the first pictures look. The style is very appealing. Thanks for posting all the pictures as it is good motivation to get over the hump on this.
What a great acquisition you made there! Also to hear David C comment on the engraving, that also is nice. He "cuts a broad swath" in this community. I also am sorry to hear about the divorce. Thanks for the pics of the gun (and the case).
Very nice find. Early lettered engraved examples have to be a rarity.
As far as pegging the actual engraving to an individual,,it's very difficult especially on graded factory work as you are looking at a pattern cut .
The very purpose of it was to get all of the output to look as near the same as possible dispite the work being done by perhaps dozens of different engravers.
An approved pattern would be cut by one of the better engravers on the staff, but then patterns or 'lifts' would be made of it and depending on the grade, journeyman or even apprentice engravers often cut the vast majority of the guns produced.
Intricate patterns, inlay, images & figures would often be set aside for one of the so called master engravers though journeyman would cut them as well. It all depended on their skill at that time.
The grade shown is not a particular difficult pattern to cut,,no offense to the gun or the engravers. It is a nicely designed pattern, but with the idea to cover a certain amt of area in a certain amt of time ($$).
When using lifts taken from the factory approved pattern gun,,the engravers will, with any amount of skill reproduce the same engraving as is on the pattern gun.
The lifts were simple card-stock patterns made by burnishing them into the surface. A dampened pattern side and a touch of layout wax on the back to prevent tearing while being burnished in.
It takes only a minute or two to make a 'lift'. The lifts are useable and reusable indeffinetly if handled with any amt of reasonable care.
Transfer is quick and simple with the surface dotted with transfer wax and the card swiped with a charcoal pencil.
The lift is then set down on the surface and very lightly burnished,,even your finger pressure over it will do it,,and the pattern w/ all the finest detailis transfered.
Ready to cut. Follow the pattern and reproduce the master work.
Allow your own cutting characteristics, likes, dislikes,, to enter into it, and the pattern will begin to change and become identifiable with the engraver if they do much work at all. Sometimes you can see that,,other times not at all.
It takes a very close examination of known work by an individual to compare to. Even then, engravers change their styles even a tiny amt over time. Sometimes by choice,,sometimes not. Simple age can cause differences in the looks of the same engravers work.
Plus the engraver strives to get better as they progress, not stay static.
So you expect a change in their cutting quality as they get into their trade.
I've often seen and read letters from experts attesting to the fact that a certain piece, though not signed or papered, is the work of this engraver or that one. I can't recall an engraver with any work experience going out on a limb and doing that. It's just too hard to tell by just looking at the engraving and too easy for it to be someone elses work. Plenty of skilled engravers out there, both then and now.
JMO
Thanks all for the compliments! Its certainly one of my more interesting pieces in my collection. Hopefully I land a few more factory engraved pieces. I know many of you have several but for me, this one is my first and hopefully not my last!
Ed - I got the PM, sorry for the delay in response! Thank you! I had no idea that this gun was made for Teddy Roosevelt! I love it now even more!
Regarding your first p'graph comments as to ID'ing the engraver, it's not hard at all in the case of the Young's, if one is at all familiar with the styles of the father and both sons. More especially since they were the only engravers on staff at the S&W factory in the time period of this particular gun's mfg. That Eugene Young only worked there occasionally leaves us with the fact that the majority by far of engraved S&W's completed 1870-1893 were done by either Gustave (d. 1895) or Oscar, who worked until 1912. Jim's gun is without question the hand of Oscar Young, evidenced by observations of pulls from his pattern book which is still in the factory's possession.... thanks to Roy Jinks careful preservation efforts in years past.
David
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2152hq
Very nice find. Early lettered engraved examples have to be a rarity.
As far as pegging the actual engraving to an individual,,it's very difficult especially on graded factory work as you are looking at a pattern cut .
The very purpose of it was to get all of the output to look as near the same as possible dispite the work being done by perhaps dozens of different engravers.
An approved pattern would be cut by one of the better engravers on the staff, but then patterns or 'lifts' would be made of it and depending on the grade, journeyman or even apprentice engravers often cut the vast majority of the guns produced.
Intricate patterns, inlay, images & figures would often be set aside for one of the so called master engravers though journeyman would cut them as well. It all depended on their skill at that time.
The grade shown is not a particular difficult pattern to cut,,no offense to the gun or the engravers. It is a nicely designed pattern, but with the idea to cover a certain amt of area in a certain amt of time ($$).
When using lifts taken from the factory approved pattern gun,,the engravers will, with any amount of skill reproduce the same engraving as is on the pattern gun.
The lifts were simple card-stock patterns made by burnishing them into the surface. A dampened pattern side and a touch of layout wax on the back to prevent tearing while being burnished in.
It takes only a minute or two to make a 'lift'. The lifts are useable and reusable indeffinetly if handled with any amt of reasonable care.
Transfer is quick and simple with the surface dotted with transfer wax and the card swiped with a charcoal pencil.
The lift is then set down on the surface and very lightly burnished,,even your finger pressure over it will do it,,and the pattern w/ all the finest detailis transfered.
Ready to cut. Follow the pattern and reproduce the master work.
Allow your own cutting characteristics, likes, dislikes,, to enter into it, and the pattern will begin to change and become identifiable with the engraver if they do much work at all. Sometimes you can see that,,other times not at all.
It takes a very close examination of known work by an individual to compare to. Even then, engravers change their styles even a tiny amt over time. Sometimes by choice,,sometimes not. Simple age can cause differences in the looks of the same engravers work.
Plus the engraver strives to get better as they progress, not stay static.
So you expect a change in their cutting quality as they get into their trade.
I've often seen and read letters from experts attesting to the fact that a certain piece, though not signed or papered, is the work of this engraver or that one. I can't recall an engraver with any work experience going out on a limb and doing that. It's just too hard to tell by just looking at the engraving and too easy for it to be someone elses work. Plenty of skilled engravers out there, both then and now.
JMO
.... Jim's gun is without question the hand of Oscar Young, evidenced by observations of pulls from his pattern book which is still in the factory's possession....
David
I get your entire point and it's well taken being a factory engraved gun.
But 'without question the hand of Oscar Young' is an awfully strong commitment when there is no evidence, paperwork to support it.,,and perhaps there is somewhere. I hope so.
At this point I'd stay with the OP's opening remark that the gun is 'likely engraved by Oscar' till proven further beyond the speculation.
Comparing 'pulls' & existing engraving can be interesting, informative, educational, ect. It does not however positively ID an engraver.
It's not the fingerprint type match to an individual 'hand' it's been made out to be at times.
Another persons engraving can be remarkably easy to copy.
Being able to engrave well is the trick you have to learn however.
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but if for some reason Oscar Young did NOT do my gun, didn't then Eugene do the engraving by default? Based on what we know about the history of the S&W engravers, and what we know about my gun, is there any possibility other than the Young brothers? My understanding is if not Oscar then surely it was Eugene although I too believe it was Oscar. Oscar evidently did do much more work than brother Eugene from what I have read on the two just as David said.
__________________
}-----Jim----->
~SWCA #2732~
Last edited by Göring's S&W; 07-26-2014 at 01:26 PM.
What a great little gun!
I love it.
IMO, it is Oscar.
I am by no means an authority on engraving, nor a multitude of engravers. Rarely would I even think of arguing with 2152 about the topic.
I have a good eye that picks up differences and similarities well. No boast, just fact. Hard to explain. Oscar was like a machine- his cuts have a style and a uniformity that Eugene doesn't have. It is kind of like I have a transparent pic of his scrolls stored in my mind, and when I lay it over your gun or others that he did, they match!
He may be my favorite engraver.
He imparted a simple elegance that is not overstated like some of the more complex engraving. Some is so complex and detailed it almost goes over the top of the curve and approaches tawdry. Dare I say that too complex gets 'pimpish' looking?
But of course, we must leave each to his own preferences. I like the simple elegance. After all, we're talking about guns, not perfume bottles in a French palace.
You know Lee, I have taken nearly 3 mos to think about it and I have to say, I agree with your line of thinking. I can of course appreciate the work of Rentzschke and other super detailed engravers, and their guns, but sometimes in life we learn that less is more. I think my 1903 does exemplify that philosophy quite well. The engraving is tasteful, not overly ornate, the coverage is good but not every nook and cranny, etc. The gun has an elegance to it while still maintaining its firearm status vs becoming a piece of "firing" jewelry. I was fortunate to get this piece and very fortunate that it lettered as is.
Where would one send their S&W piece now-a-days for such work?
I have a Victory revolver with the U.S. Navy/Army markings removed that I shoot, carry and use that I'd consider doing some work, too. I also my just find another Model 10 with less historical significance to add some imbelishment to.
Personally I find tracing things like this-- imagine over 100 years has passed and to have such a reputation and style of work recognized for his work is style of engraving is very deep in depth compared to others you showed. As styles progressed through the years like scrolls and edges towards seems more rounded. Who could say 100+ years later something you did would be recognized by a style or shapes? People then had a huge sense of pride in their work - fit and finish for that time makes numbers of guns out today look like junk considering what they had to work with. the way the storage box was built someone took the time to hand build that box and it shows it's still here. How much of today's will be here 100+ years from now?? Thanks for sharing as the history evolved and families took part very fascinating. IMO
Thank you very much for starting such an interesting and totally wonderful thread. Congratulations on the excellent find. Thanks to all of you for the ongoing education. This is the only thing I get to do on a regular basis that takes me away from work.
I've come across a revolver which I believe to have been engraved by Eugen Young
I am picking up this revolver I believe engraved by Eugene Young. I can only go by examples of his work I find on the internet. This is a 1915-16 S&W Target 38 Special. I'm working on getting a letter. Looking for your opinion (& others who would like to share their input).
I am picking up this revolver I believe engraved by Eugene Young. I can only go by examples of his work I find on the internet. This is a 1915-16 S&W Target 38 Special. I'm working on getting a letter. Looking for your opinion (& others who would like to share their input).
Nice revolver! The gun does look to be factory engraved, and likely Eugene Young as you stated. Oscar Young died in 1912 and the third brother, Alfred, did not engrave firearms. AFAIK, he only engraved tools and other machines for the factory. In case anyone is wondering, Gustav (the father) died in 1895. The grips are much later than the revolver.
Turns out the revolver is 1917 and the the grips, as I'm told, are 1930's. I don't know much about these grips: real or 'fake'. Back of grips don't have any markings. One panel looks to have a finish on the backside, only about 1/2 done with varnish, stain or whatever.
Factory engraved 1903 first change target AND it’s likely the work of Oscar Young!!!
...oddly enough, my only other EK Tryon S&W is also a factory pearl grip gun - a 32 "bicycle" revolver which shipped in 1939. Apparently EK Tryon was around for many years.
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