|
|
07-21-2014, 02:49 PM
|
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 13,996
Likes: 5,005
Liked 7,702 Times in 2,624 Posts
|
|
An uncommon variety of the prewar .38/44 Heavy Duty
One of the less frequently seen varieties of prewar N and K frame hand ejectors is the "half-target" model, a fixed-sight revolver in which the rear sight is the familiar frame-top groove, but the front sight is a pinned target blade, usually a Patridge or some type of beaded sight. I don't think I have ever seen a half-target I-frame, but that doesn't mean they can't exist. These features are rare enough on Ns and Ks, and would be extremely rare on a small frame hand ejector.
I came across this Heavy Duty at a gun show this weekend: 42570, shipped 9 Jan 1934 to Schwabacher Hardware in Seattle. All numbers match. The revolver looks really good until you get within reading distance of it; the condition should probably be called at about 95 percent -- maybe slightly higher if one is generous. There is blue loss at the muzzle and back along the sides of the barrel, as well as pinprick spots scattered over the rest of the gun. It definitely needs a bronze-wool and oil rubdown to keep the threatened areas from getting worse. A teardown inspection showed that cleaning was not necessary, but the gun was dry and needed lubrication. Bore and chambers are fine.
The barrel carries a Call gold bead sight, and the letter for this gun states the factory shipped the gun in that configuration. There were two such guns in this order, and other half-target HDs have been reported. This particular gun has been moving from collector to collector in recent years, but it seems not to have been mentioned on the forum before. At any rate I haven't found it in the archives.
I have no idea how many half-target HDs there may be. Perhaps a few dozen, perhaps a few hundred. I hope our resident HD Specialist 1Aspenhill will be able to provide some statistics.
__________________
David Wilson
Last edited by DCWilson; 07-22-2014 at 07:33 AM.
Reason: Clean up a foggy sentence and get a little more precise about condition..
|
The Following 50 Users Like Post:
|
-db-, 1Aspenhill, 1blindref, 22hipower, 410bore, 82ndpara, bamabiker, beagleye, bigolddave, bill skebeck, Ceapea, chud333, COYOTEHUNTER, CWH44300, dabney, delta-419, donadler, gunfish, Göring's S&W, H P Bushrod, ikor, j38, JayCeeNC, JSW, lawandorder, Lee Barner, LEO918, lowhog, MAJPATT, Memphis, moosedog, Muley Gil, Nedroe, Old TexMex, quinn, rayb, red9, Reddog, Retired W4, RKmesa, Russell Cottle, S&W Oldtimer, STCM(SW), Sverre, TACC1, The Gila Bender, vonn, Vulcan Bob, Watchdog, wbraswell |
07-21-2014, 03:08 PM
|
|
SWCA Member Absent Comrade
|
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: The kidney of Dixie.
Posts: 10,509
Likes: 49
Liked 13,410 Times in 3,290 Posts
|
|
The big front site was an old gunfighter trick. Recall the letter Bat Masterson wrote to Colt requesting they "make up" a revolver for him with a light trigger and the front sight "a little higher and thicker than normal." They knew when shooting fast you watch the front site. There may be more of these around than you might think if savvy cops were buying them.
__________________
No life story has happy end.
|
The Following 4 Users Like Post:
|
|
07-21-2014, 04:09 PM
|
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: St Augustine
Posts: 2,362
Likes: 2,314
Liked 5,696 Times in 848 Posts
|
|
That's a great gun David.
If you get tired of looking after it, I'll take the next watch
__________________
Rick
SWCA #2727 , SWHF #435
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
07-21-2014, 05:51 PM
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Cottage Grove,WI
Posts: 4,124
Likes: 1,540
Liked 5,518 Times in 1,650 Posts
|
|
Boy,Do I wish I even had a CHANCE to find a pre war Smith of any kind at a Local Gun show let alone a pre war half target HD!!
|
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
|
|
07-21-2014, 09:34 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: May 2005
Location: MN
Posts: 356
Likes: 7
Liked 93 Times in 28 Posts
|
|
Very cool! I have a well used m&p 4" nickel half target that I love. Pretty scarce guns.
|
07-22-2014, 08:04 AM
|
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 13,996
Likes: 5,005
Liked 7,702 Times in 2,624 Posts
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by 05CarbonDRZ
Boy, Do I wish I even had a CHANCE to find a pre war Smith of any kind at a Local Gun show let alone a pre war half target HD!!
|
This was a kind of special circumstance: the show was a fairly compact event in Santa Barbara that was limited to antique/C&R firearms -- no modern stuff. It's not like there were hundreds of Smiths there, but there were two or three tables with good things on them. Mostly it was a rifle show, with lots of collector grade Winchesters on display, not to mention flintlock and percussion muskets. Many century-old military long arms were on display as well, both European and American. I saw more Krags than I have seen in one place in a long time, and fewer '03 Springfields than I might have expected. I was just lucky that a couple of nice examples of revolver models I favor were available. In addition to the HD in this thread and the early postwar Terrier in another one, I also connected with a Colt 1909 Army that was in decent shape but needed a serious deep cleaning. It still needs a little attention before it is again in top mechanical condition. I think I am one tiny coil spring away from being able to take it to the range.
__________________
David Wilson
Last edited by DCWilson; 07-22-2014 at 12:26 PM.
Reason: Fix a couple of misleading words.
|
The Following 3 Users Like Post:
|
|
07-22-2014, 03:50 PM
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: Cottage Grove,WI
Posts: 4,124
Likes: 1,540
Liked 5,518 Times in 1,650 Posts
|
|
No special circumstance shows around here either,If you want a beat up Remington .243 Hunting Rifle I have you covered...
|
07-22-2014, 06:11 PM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 64
Likes: 40
Liked 93 Times in 28 Posts
|
|
Very nice H/D and as has been said, it was obviously ordered by someone who knew how to take advantage of the ammo for the H/D and also dwelled amongst those whom he felt he needed an edge in a gun fight.
The Call bead on a ramp stands out very well in low light with a flash sight picture and until the 357 Mag came out, that was a nice packing piece! As Elmer Keith and Col Charles Askins used to say, the Call gold bead was good for fast shooting since the flat surface caught light at an angle that indicated the sights were trimmed dead on.
I learned to my amazement that it was true in the Philippines recently on Counterinsurgency work. My Colt Series 70 1911 that was done by a Philippines Marine Corps armorer had a modified ramp front with a call gold bead and Meusoc/NM style rear sight. It was a very fast sighting pistol, and the flat surface always let you know when you were dead on!
Congrats on finding it!
Last edited by SpartanDCI; 07-22-2014 at 06:15 PM.
|
07-22-2014, 06:51 PM
|
|
US Veteran SWCA Member Absent Comrade
|
|
|
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Kansas, USA
Posts: 3,188
Likes: 1,308
Liked 3,521 Times in 577 Posts
|
|
David,
I only have 6ea in the database and it is hard to tell how many were made.
Bill
__________________
38-44heavyduty.com
|
07-22-2014, 07:06 PM
|
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 13,996
Likes: 5,005
Liked 7,702 Times in 2,624 Posts
|
|
Bill, many thanks. I didn't think there were many, but I thought there might be more known than the half dozen you have recorded.
I noticed that both Schwabacher Hardware and Seattle Hardware ordered HDs, and in some cases placed those orders on behalf of state and local law enforcement agencies. I notice that the order for this gun and its companion came only six months before Seattle Hardware placed the famous order for the McGivern Outdoorsman revolvers -- .38/44s with fully adjustable sights and five inch barrels. Schwabacher had previously ordered an OD with the standard 6.5 inch barrel, and that feels like it might have been an agency-related order too.
This particular gun seems a little too pretty for a knockabout service revolver, but some of its wear looks like it could be holster related. In line with a few preceding comments, I'm now wondering if it could have been ordered under a Seattle PD or Washington State Patrol purchase order.
__________________
David Wilson
|
07-23-2014, 12:32 AM
|
US Veteran
|
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: OR
Posts: 3,517
Likes: 5,500
Liked 1,028 Times in 351 Posts
|
|
Neat gun, David! The only improvement that could be made on that piece was created by S&W in 1935 - and named "magnas". I have a 1st month production HD (thanks, Bill!) and ran 2 boxes of hot .38 ammo through it a while back. If I'd had a 3rd box that day -I'd have invented magnas if they didn't already exist.
Best Regards, Jerry
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
07-23-2014, 07:01 AM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: NE
Posts: 320
Likes: 276
Liked 543 Times in 61 Posts
|
|
Very nice David! If I am not mistaken, I saw that gun in a large collection in AZ last year. If it is, it was in some very good company.
|
08-04-2014, 12:08 AM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 26
Likes: 12
Liked 8 Times in 5 Posts
|
|
Gentlemen, I'm a bit new to the 38/44, but own 3: an S prefix, a transitional and a prewar. The prewar 5" is the one I am most curious about, as it has a serial number of 35044. This would seem to indicate fairly early production. Is there a way to verify/ inquire about exact production dates?
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
08-04-2014, 12:59 AM
|
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Orange County, CA
Posts: 13,996
Likes: 5,005
Liked 7,702 Times in 2,624 Posts
|
|
One of the standard references says that the first .38/44 Heavy Duty carried serial number 35037 -- so yes, your 35044 would be fairly early.
Our resident expert on the Heavy Duty is 1Aspenhill. If he doesn't see your post in this thread, you might want to send him a PM mentioning your gun's serial number.
The earliest HDs are said to have been distributed in April 1930, but S&W had no policy that required them to distribute in serial number order. The only way to tell on which day your gun was shipped would be to order a Letter of Authenticity, which would tell you not only the exact shipping date but also where the gun was shipped. Unfortunately, there is no way tell the specific date on which a gun received final assembly and was sent to inventory. S&W simply did not track that information.
__________________
David Wilson
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
08-04-2014, 10:01 AM
|
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: St Augustine
Posts: 2,362
Likes: 2,314
Liked 5,696 Times in 848 Posts
|
|
I've got 35101 which shipped April 14, 1930.
__________________
Rick
SWCA #2727 , SWHF #435
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
08-05-2014, 12:05 AM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 26
Likes: 12
Liked 8 Times in 5 Posts
|
|
Thank you for the replies. Who/ where do I write to obtain the Letter of Authenticity? I assume this would be the famed Mr. Jinks?
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
08-05-2014, 12:14 AM
|
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: South of the Nueces
Posts: 9,273
Likes: 23,812
Liked 20,090 Times in 5,871 Posts
|
|
__________________
Halfway and one more step
|
08-05-2014, 09:25 AM
|
Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Bainbridge GA
Posts: 1,200
Likes: 1,632
Liked 606 Times in 385 Posts
|
|
Beauty. What is the width of the front sight? Did they open up the rear sight notch?
|
08-05-2014, 09:37 AM
|
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: East Texas
Posts: 6,629
Likes: 3,146
Liked 6,354 Times in 2,491 Posts
|
|
That's a great score, David. That one, along with that 1909 Colt, would have me grinning for a long, long time.
__________________
Wayne
Torn & Frayed
|
08-05-2014, 11:39 AM
|
SWCA Member
|
|
|
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 5,524
Likes: 940
Liked 6,468 Times in 1,328 Posts
|
|
David
Schwabacher was only one of several gun S&W dealers in the Seattle area. I have
S&W's from the following area dealers:
Schwabacher, Piper & Taft, Seattle Hardware, Washington Hardware,
Warshals Sporting Goods, & Kimball Guns of Tacoma.
Regards, Mike Priwer
|
The Following User Likes This Post:
|
|
|
Posting Rules
|
|
|
|
|