Bekeart models and .22/32 HFT's

series guy · #**151** 05-06-2018, 06:09 PM

Well I took a chance and bought the gun. Serial number 208271 on the frame, cylinder, and right grip. Number 226045 on the barrel. Grip number is 2419. Has the Paine front sight, small logo on the right side of the frame, large ejector rod knob, no USA markings and a non recessed cylinder. Stocks are two screw with the recessed gold medallions. The rear sight is missing if anybody has one they can part with.

DCWilson · #**152** 05-06-2018, 06:43 PM

Going out on a limb with this suggestion, but I think 208271 may have been part of a shipment to M.W. Robinson in NYC. 490 units were ordered and perhaps delivered over a period of months. No. 208410, bearing grips no. 2431, was shipped 2/27/14.

With a different serial number, the barrel is an obvious replacement. Consistency of numbers on the remaining parts is consistent with a simple barrel swap at a later date.

Any I-frame rear sight from the 'teens or early '20s ought to serve your purpose. It's good you still have the mounting screw. It doesn't have to be a .22/32 sight. A rear sight from an early .32 HE Target would also work, but you are less likely to find one. The .22/32 targets outnumber the .32 HE Targets by more than 10 to 1..

After 1923, rear I-frame target sights could have wider notches because the wider patridge front sight became standard on these guns. I would buy any rear target sight from before 1940, and if it doesn't have a round-bottom notch, you should look for such a rear-sight blade that you could use to replace whatever is in the rear sight when you get it.

Great score of an iconic early S&W. Congratulations. When you shoot it, please restrict yourself to standard velocity .22 LR. The high speed .22 LR ammo wasn't introduced until a couple of decades later, and S&W didn't start enhanced heat treating of their cylinders until a few years after your revolver was produced. I doubt the gun would come apart in your hands, but why stress something that is over a century old?

series guy · #**153** 05-06-2018, 07:32 PM

Thank you for the info. I saw the mention of the Robinson shipment in some earlier posts. Do you know if the later sights changed in physical size or just the sight blade?

Hondo44 · #**154** 05-06-2018, 07:40 PM

No, the 22/32 rear sight did not change in size or style, even on the post war guns all the way up to 1953! But they're almost impossible to find. I suppose that's why the sight on the one you bought was cannibalized for another gun.

Clements made exact reproductions at one time in four sizes for $95, you might check with him.

Also, the K and N frame pre war sight can be adapted:

the I frame 22/32 sight is .200" wide,
the K is .244" wide and,
the N frame is .250" wide.

On the N frame, by shortening the front end of the tang and dressing the end to be flush with your top strap, and narrowing the width, only the front mounting hole must be redrilled.

On the K frame, which is shorter than the N frame; by shortening the front end of the tang, narrowing the width, and drilling a new front mounting hole, they will work but will need a spot of tig weld to fill the 'half moon' of the original mounting hole at the front end.

Sending you a PM.

Hondo44 · #**155** 05-06-2018, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCWilson

When you shoot it, please restrict yourself to standard velocity .22 LR. The high speed .22 LR ammo wasn't introduced until a couple of decades later, and S&W didn't start enhanced heat treating of their cylinders until a few years after your revolver was produced. I doubt the gun would come apart in your hands, but why stress something that is over a century old?

David,

I agree to use only standard velocity .22 LR. However, I believe it's not a strength issue of the cyl, but one of the Hi Velocity case rim weakness. The change to recessed 22 chambers reportedly at ~ # 525600, by change order dated Jan 7,1935 was to address the issue of Hi Vel. bursting case heads in non-recessed chambers.

But as you say, limiting to use of LR ammo only is a good policy and will eliminate all concerns.

JSR III · #**156** 06-17-2018, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Well I took a chance and bought the gun. Serial number 208271 on the frame, cylinder, and right grip. Number 226045 on the barrel. Grip number is 2419. Has the Paine front sight, small logo on the right side of the frame, large ejector rod knob, no USA markings and a non recessed cylinder. Stocks are two screw with the recessed gold medallions. The rear sight is missing if anybody has one they can part with.

Your gun is definitely one of the 490 guns shipped to M.W. Robinson in 1914. There were a total of five shipments going out on 1/31, 2/18, 2/21, 2/27 and 3/18/1914. Due to the high serial number, I would think that yours went out in either the 2/27 or 3/18 shipment. But just a guess. The guns are consecutively numbered between 207926 and 208415 however like most S&W's they did not ship in serial number order. As an example 207971 which is fairly low in this serial number block shipped in the final shipment on 3/19. Your barrel, 226045 is from a gun that most likely shipped two years later in 1916.

So one never knows. The rear sights are almost impossible to find and I have seen several guns with broken or missing rear sights. My belief is that if the rear screw is over tightened without loosening the front screw, the base cracks at the front screw. I have even seen one example where someone tried epoxy to glue the base back together.

Clements mentioned in Hondo's post is 6 months out taking orders for these sights. He won't take any orders until he clears out his backlog.

I hope that helps.

Do you have a photo of the S&W logo as I think that it is the medium size?

series guy · #**157** 06-17-2018, 01:41 PM

I was lax in updating this thread. I hadn't wanted to jinx myself so I kept quiet until the project was complete. I found a rear sight on gunbroker with a cylinder, hammer, trigger and other parts for $250. The strange part was that running concurrently was an ad for a .22/32 that lettered as being shipped to a member of the Wesson family. It too was missing its rear sight. The starting bid on that gun was around $2200 I think. Now if you are trying to get $2k+ for a .22/32 you would think $250 would be a cheap investment to make the gun complete. Lucky for me the seller didn't think my way and I got the parts to complete my gun. The sight was about 15 years newer than my gun and the elevation screw had a head on it that didn't allow the sight to sit tight on the frame notch. I purchased a small end mill and chucked the gun up in a friend's Bridgeport and milled a spot .050" deep. All is well now and the sight fits well and the gun shoots very well. And to help out I sold the hammer that came with the sight for $100.

JSR III · #**158** 06-17-2018, 05:43 PM

Just to add a little to the conversation, the rear sight blade is determined by the front sight. The Paine or other style bead front sights come with the U notch rear sight blade and the Patridge front sights come with a square notch rear blade.

The problem with trying to use sight styles to determine the vintage of the gun is that S&W would ship a gun with whatever they had available if the customer requested same and was willing to pay any additional charge if any. Even though the majority of the early guns came with the Paine front sight and the U notch rear, I have an early Bekeart shipped gun that was equipped with a Patridge sight and square notch rear.

Likewise, I have late shipped guns equipped with the Paine front sight and U notch rear.

Only a letter will say for sure but you must specify the question in the request because the letter template that they use may have to be changed manually.

Oldtimer1 · #**159** 08-06-2020, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSR III

I am putting together a database of information about the Bekeart models and the subsequent .22/32 HFT's. I have close to 350 guns in the database so far and I am asking for your help to add any additional numbers to the list. I have obvious headings like serial number, stock sequence number, date shipped, destination, stock style, front sight, recessed chambers, condition and modifications/inclusions.

Things like bobbed hammers, knob style etc., are listed under the modifications.

If anyone has any that they would like to add to the list, please supply the details. Should you not want to post the information publicly, feel free to PM or email me and no names will be attached to any information.

If you own a .22/32 and just want to see if I have any information about your gun, please feel free to ask.

Many folks think that if their gun is numbered between 138,226 and 139,275 that it went to Bekeart, however, that is not correct. For example, 138,226 did not and neither did 139,274.

Thanks in advance for your help.

I recently bought, but have not taken possession of a 22/30 Smith in the Bekheart Design, but the Serial number is 458375, way too high. The gun is in rough cosmetic condition but seems to be in great mechanical condition.Cylinders are not recessed, square butt. Can you explain the high serial number? [email protected]

JSR III · #**160** 09-01-2020, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oldtimer1

I recently bought, but have not taken possession of a 22/30 Smith in the Bekheart Design, but the Serial number is 458375, way too high. The gun is in rough cosmetic condition but seems to be in great mechanical condition.Cylinders are not recessed, square butt. Can you explain the high serial number? [email protected]

Sorry I did not respond earlier but just saw the thread. Not sure what explanation you are looking for. These guns were made into the 40's and 50's and up to almost the 600,000 serial number range. Based on the serial number it most likely shipped in late 1927 but no guarantees without a letter.

Hondo44 · #**161** 09-01-2020, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oldtimer1

I recently bought, but have not taken possession of a 22/30 Smith in the Bekheart Design, but the Serial number is 458375, way too high. The gun is in rough cosmetic condition but seems to be in great mechanical condition.Cylinders are not recessed, square butt. Can you explain the high serial number? [email protected]

Welcome to the forum.

The actual special production of the Bekeart Model which began in 1911, ended in 1915 when the model was introduced starting at ~#160,000 as a regular production model named the ".22/32 Heavy Frame Target". That's what you have.

They're all generically referred to as Bekeart models which is a misnomer for those made after 1915. However, those shipped to Bekeart by S&W still have a slight "4th class Bekeart-ness" associated with them. Albeit, not much premium price over that which the condition would normally justify.

Brief history of the "Model 1911 .22/.32 Hand Ejector - Bekeart Model" and the Bekeart Gun Shop:

It is not a “Bekeart” which was 1st produced in 1911 for Phil Bekeart, owner of the Phil B. Bekeart Co. gun shop in San Francisco, (~1870 to not long after 1949) who reportedly convinced S&W to build a .22 on the .32 Hand Ejector I frame. History indicates he ordered 3000 to get them to tool up for it. The 1st batch of 294 shipped were only sold to him, then eventually to other dealers. Finally in 1915 it became such a good seller that it was added as a regular production model with the official name above. Regular production began at #160000 in 1914 and it was named ".22/32 Heavy Frame Target" of 1915.
Those produced after the true Bekeart guns (which were all made prior to 1915), are sometimes referred to by the collector generic moniker, Bekeart Model.

The 1st 3000 guns produced beginning in 1911 had a second # stamped on the butt of the left grip that could be seen without removing the grips from the gun. These #1-3000 grip numbers do not match the gun's serial #. They just indicated the sequence of gun production/shipping: S&W guns are not shipped in serial # sequence.
For example: Grip #1 was the 1st gun made but the gun's serial # was 13XXXX, grip #2 the 2nd made with whatever the next serial # used was, etc.

Grips that are original to a S&W gun have a serial number on the back of the right grip only, which matches the gun serial #.
First grips are the walnut target extension grips with two attachment screws and have recessed gold medallions:

Above serial number ~258000 (right after WW I), the standard HFT stocks became the Regulation Police 2 screw stocks on a rebated grip frame, at first with recessed gold plated brass medallions in the late 'teens. Checkered two-screw extension target stocks with gold plated brass medallions in ‘dished’ stock circle tops were optional until 1920 on I frames, and w/o medallions until change order 2/11/1929 (see below).

After c. 1920 until 1929 medallions were not used and Regulation Police grips replaced Target grips into the mid 1920s when the target grips returned as the standard grips.
After introducing the larger K frame .22, (production began in 1930, 1st completed Jan. 30, 1931), the HFT was renamed ”.22/.32 TARGET” and used until production quit in 1974.

daddio202 · #**162** 09-02-2020, 12:18 PM

Just wanted to add my later 22/32 HFT to the list for the database. Mine from 1929 with serial 492174 is just a standard version and has the 2 screw target stocks which were standard by then with a patridge front and square notch rear sight. Best thing about this one is its nearly new condition. Looks like original owner shot a cylinder or two from it and put it away somewhere cool and dry for the next 90 years.

ol777gunnerz · #**163** 09-02-2020, 05:17 PM

Jinks Letter info shown, barrel is marked as factory replacement, butt date Oct of 1922, frame has A O Niedner stamp, Malden, Mass., it now has a Sheard front sight, knurled trigger & bobbed hammer. Being shipped in 1919 there is no S&W stamp on either side of the frame.

jimbo56 · #**164** 11-11-2020, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSR III

Thanks for the added info guys, keep it coming.

Please include serial number, stock number if any, style of stocks, front sight, condition, box, extractor knob style or modifications and if a later model, recessed chambers or not.

This is the only way we can narrow down these changes as serial numbers dont always dictate when a specific change occured.

Thanks again,

James

I recently acquired my first .22 HFT (but hopefully, not my last as I continue to actively search). Here are the specifics for your database. The revolver is SN 220413, all matching except the right inner stock which is not numbered. I do believe the stocks to be original despite this. No assembly number on the bottom of the stocks. As pictured, walnut target stocks with gold medallions, Paine front sight and a "mushroom" extractor knob. The chambers are not recessed.

I was told by the seller the gun was acquired from the original family who owned it. It appears the little gun was not often used and put away for years... but who knows?? The bluing is exceptional, so I wonder if perhaps it was re-blued at some point of it's life.

For a beginner, I will say I consider the gun to be in excellent shape for something I date back to 1915. I'm pretty happy for a first acquisition and look forward to finding more.

Jimbo

Wiregrassguy · #**165** 11-11-2020, 01:05 PM

Hi Jimbo. IMO the gun was refinished at some point but not at the factory. I base that on the lack of detail in the S&W logo stamp and the rebound slide stud seems to be polished flat. Otherwise, it seems to be well done. Congratulations!

JSR III · #**166** 11-11-2020, 02:00 PM

I would agree that the gun has been refinished based on the pitting around the side plate logo. The gold medallion stocks are typical for this time period. The penciled serial number found inside on the right stock panel are often difficult to read after 100 years. You need a very bright light and magnification sometimes to pull it up. If a prior owner oiled the stocks as a way to preserve them then many times the pencil marks are gone.

Other guns in my database around this serial number shipped in late 1914 or early 1915 although I show one about 30 numbers higher that shipped in 1929 so you never know.

The Paine front sight and the large extractor rod knob are typical for this time period.

Is there a date code on the lower left frame with the stocks removed or any star markings near the serial numbers? These would indicate a factory refinish.

jimbo56 · #**167** 11-11-2020, 06:51 PM

Thank you both for further educating me. I have taken pictures of the SNs on the inner left frame, front strap and under the barrel. As you can see, on the inner left frame the date 2.16 (February 1916) appears, so perhaps my revolver was returned to S&W to be re-blued? Other than the "B" on the barrel flat, there are no diamonds or other stampings, so I don't know. I thought the "B" was stamped into the barrel flat of all blued guns, but maybe it is there to indicate it was sent back to S&W to be re-blued? But if S&W did the work, I would feel better knowing any re-blue was done by the factory. Any and all feedback is welcomed.
Thanks
Jimbo

mrcvs · #**168** 11-11-2020, 07:38 PM

The date of "2.16" does mean your revolver did return to Smith & Wesson for one of numerous possible reasons, of which a refinish could be one of them. However, your revolver being nearly brand new at the time strongly suggests that the reason for the return was not to be refinished. Nonetheless, if factory refinished or not, the photographs you supplied strongly suggests that a refinish has occurred at some point since February of 1916.

JSR III · #**169** 11-11-2020, 07:52 PM

Quote:

Is there a date code on the lower left frame with the stocks removed or any star markings near the serial numbers? These would indicate a factory refinish.

I should have said "could" and not would. The date code could be for a repair to the gun as well and not just a refinish. You may want to request a factory letter as well as any information from the Historical Foundation. They may have information relating to why the gun went back. To me the investigation and the resulting information is half the fun of collecting these old guns.

Wiregrassguy · #**170** 11-11-2020, 07:55 PM

That's an awfully early date stamp. I didn't think that S&W started that until after 1916.

Guy

mrcvs · #**171** 11-11-2020, 10:16 PM

With regards to the last 2 posts--

I think the date stamps go back to as early as 1909. I have a New Model No 3 with one dating from 1913.

I believe the Historical Foundation can only research date stamps from 1920 and later with possibly a few from 1919.

jimbo56 · #**172** 11-12-2020, 11:25 AM

Everyone, your feedback has been so helpful. I think I am beginning to better understand SOME of this, but I will continue my education. I did want to ask one question however. Was it unusual my revolver returned to the factory for some sort of repair (as evidenced by the date stamp), but the front strap would not have received a star near the SN? I know it's not important... just another datapoint for me to process. Thanks!

rbclark · #**173** 09-20-2021, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1blindref

I've got one that I lettered. Hopefully you can get all of the info you need from my pictures.

I have 495680 serial number. Very close to yours

mrcvs · #**174** 10-03-2021, 07:25 PM

Here’s a 3rd degree of Bekeart, No 163265, shipped April 1912.

I will get a letter on it but that’s on hold at least until January 2022.

I will provide better photographs once I have it. I’m told “1437” is stamped on the butt.

Hondo44 · #**175** 10-03-2021, 07:45 PM

Although the grip #s are sequential in order of production (not shipping), they have now correlation to the serial # of the gun. However according to the general trend in my database, the grip #1437 is commensurate with your gun's serial #. Check the inside of the right grip for the gun's matching serial in pencil near the top.

However I would not pay for a letter because as posted above, it's highly unlikely to shed any light on the front sight. I for one don't believe it's a factory installed sight, just FYI.

mrcvs · #**176** 10-03-2021, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hondo44

Although the grip #s are sequential in order of production (not shipping), they have now correlation to the serial # of the gun. However according to the general trend in my database, the grip #1437 is commensurate with your gun's serial #. Check the inside of the right grip for the gun's matching serial in pencil near the top.

However I would not pay for a letter because as posted above, it's highly unlikely to shed any light on the front sight. I for one don't believe it's a factory installed sight, just FYI.

I’m fairly certain it’s not a factory front sight. I knew that before I purchased it, or surmised that at least.

I’ll get a factory letter on it nonetheless, as it will provide for a shipping destination.

vinn · #**177** 10-03-2021, 09:09 PM

both mine have bad bores, i am thinking of a re line so to shoot targets.

JLSanderson · #**178** 09-15-2022, 06:29 PM

I have two 22-32's that can be added to your data base. The first one I bought two years ago. The SN is 240266, which I think puts it in the 1916 year, all sn's match. Gold medallions, WF Sheard front sight, adj. Rear sight.
The second one I just bought a month ago, SN 138272, 29 stamped on the bottom of the left stock. All sn's match including the penciled number on the right stock. It has gold medallions, Paine front sight and what looks to be a replacement non adjustable rear sight. I believe this gun was in the first shipment to Philip Bekeart in 6/7/1911.

Hondo44 · #**179** 09-15-2022, 07:30 PM

Welcome to the forum.

You're correct, #138272 was in the first shipment to Bekeart which makes it a category 1 Bekeart model! One of the first 294 guns sent to Bekeart in 6 shipments.

June 7, 1911- 30 pieces,
June 22- “ 60 pieces,
June 28- “ 60 pieces,
June 30- “ 60 pieces,
August 31- “ 50 pieces, and
October 13- “ 34 pieces.

Bullet99 · #**180** 09-15-2022, 07:56 PM

Well, I was "encouraged" to buy this gun couple of months ago by a good friend at a local gun show. It's one of a dozen or more guns I have yet to get lettered. Yes I'm delinquent!!

It is S/N 224949 and the grips are numbered to the gun.

I'm sorry to say I know little about it other than it's in excellent shape. I do see it has a U rear sight which appears adjusble for both windage and elevation. It does not have a recessed cylinder.

It looks identical to the gun in the Supica photo on page 132 of the std catalog.

A special thanks to the gentleman above explaining where to look for the numbers on the grips. Had I not had my "old mans" lighted magnifying glass, I would never been able to see it!

Thank you

JLSanderson · #**181** 09-16-2022, 01:50 PM

Even though this is a 1st category "Bekeart", is there any value to the gun with a replacement rear sight that is not original? And would it be worth looking for an original repalcement sight knowing that they are numbered to the gun?

Hondo44 · #**182** 09-16-2022, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JLSanderson

Even though this is a 1st category "Bekeart", is there any value to the gun with a replacement rear sight that is not original? And would it be worth looking for an original replacement sight knowing that they are numbered to the gun?

Especially in high condition, it would certainly still have value just not as much. And the non-factory sight drops the value further than a non-number matching factory sight would. Especially if the frame was altered for the non-factory sight installation. Is the frame modified?

A factory sight would be difficult to find. However, there's an awful lot of .22/32 HFT models out there with lots of wear and/or modifications with very decreased value. That would offer an opportunity to obtain a factory rear sight, even though with non matching number.

Bullet99 · #**183** 09-16-2022, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JLSanderson

Even though this is a 1st category "Bekeart", is there any value to the gun with a replacement rear sight that is not original? And would it be worth looking for an original repalcement sight knowing that they are numbered to the gun?

What gun are you referring to?

Bullet99 · #**184** 09-16-2022, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hondo44

Especially in high condition, it would certainly still have value just not as much. And the non-factory sight drops the value further than a non-number matching factory sight would. Especially if the frame was altered for the non-factory sight installation. Is the frame modified?

A factory sight would be difficult to find. However, there's an awful lot of .22/32 HFT models out there with lots of wear and/or modifications with very decreased value. That would offer an opportunity to obtain a factory rear sight, even though with non matching number.

Which gun which sight are you talking about? Just curious..

JSR III · #**185** 09-16-2022, 06:59 PM

I think that a lot may depend on the sight. I have seen several .22/32 HFT's with non factory front sights but if it was one of the well known makers of the day, like Sheard, it would not bother me. As Dr. Jinks has said many times, it is nice to find pristine sock drawer S&W's that have lived their lives as museum pieces, but it is also cool to find guns that have been altered or modified by the owner to their personal specs.

Your gun is still a first shipment to Bekeart himself and the 29th gun of this model ever assembled. Unless the rear sight modification was badly done, it really wouldn't bother me too much.

The main problem that I have observed is that these guns just don't seem to attract the interest that I feel that they should. I follow these guns when selling on GB and many have sat for over a year. Not really sure why S&W's first venture into a large size .22 revolver doesn't draw fevered collector interest. Perhaps it is due to the I frame as opposed to the mid 30's advent of the new K frame 6" .22 revolvers.

I own 3 from the first 3 Bekeart shipments and 2 from 2 of the 5 shipments to M.W. Robinson in 1914. As evidenced by my avatar, I like them a lot.

Hondo44 · #**186** 09-16-2022, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bullet99

Which gun which sight are you talking about? Just curious..

Post #178, the second gun referenced below:

Quote:

Originally Posted by JLSanderson

I have two 22-32's that can be added to your data base. The first one I bought two years ago. The SN is 240266, which I think puts it in the 1916 year, all sn's match. Gold medallions, WF Sheard front sight, adj. Rear sight.

The second one I just bought a month ago, SN 138272, 29 stamped on the bottom of the left stock. All sn's match including the penciled number on the right stock. It has gold medallions, Paine front sight and what looks to be a replacement non adjustable rear sight. I believe this gun was in the first shipment to Philip Bekeart in 6/7/1911.

JLSanderson · #**187** 09-16-2022, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hondo44

Especially in high condition, it would certainly still have value just not as much. And the non-factory sight drops the value further than a non-number matching factory sight would. Especially if the frame was altered for the non-factory sight installation. Is the frame modified?

A factory sight would be difficult to find. However, there's an awful lot of .22/32 HFT models out there with lots of wear and/or modifications with very decreased value. That would offer an opportunity to obtain a factory rear sight, even though with non matching number.

The frame has not been modified. I'm new to the forum and l'll send photos when I have figured out how to do it.

Tnich1126 · #**188** 12-28-2022, 12:53 PM

Thanks for putting this together. He is my info and any info you can let me know about this gun I would appreciate.
Serial # 163612
Grips have 1474 stamped on left outside grip
Also a star stamped on outside beside SN hope you can see it.

If you need more let me know,
Thanks
Terry

Sorry can't get pictures attached

Papa Lee · #**189** 01-23-2023, 03:28 PM

Here's a photo of three.

MHF · #**190** 02-04-2023, 08:10 PM

just got this today. serial #163507 stock #1307. 2 screw gold medallion grips. No made in USA. Small S&W stamp on left side. Large knob. Shooter