Good afternoon. This is my first post so I hope all goes well.

I recently purchased a .38 M&P Model of 1905 - 4th Change, Serial # 519409 and am trying to narrow down the year of manufacturer as much as possible without getting the letter. I see from my Standard Catalog in the price check section that this particular revolver has to be 1934 or earlier as the Coast Guard was shipped 6469XX in 1934. Calling S&W Customer Service I was told 1930-1940.

Thank you!

More than likely, it shipped in 1925. However, it could have shipped later, only a factory letter can establish that. I do show two M&Ps having slightly lower SNs which shipped in 1925, and also one with a lower number which shipped in 1927. If it has the mushroom-style extractor rod knob, it will be 1927 or earlier.

Thank you very much for the timely response.

Yes it does have the mushroom style extractor rod knob. Thank you for sharing that info.

Welcome to the Forum.

Be advised that S&W kept track of shipping dates, not manufacturing dates. Serial numbers can be all over the calender, as the factory would store the finished revolvers in a vault and practiced "last in, first out". The more popular guns, such as the .38 special M&Ps, would be more likely to be shipped in somewhat of an chronological order, but not always.

__________________
John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Thank you for the welcome and the info.

Forum members, Ive often heard on this Forum, and elsewhere, that, as Muley Gil has mentioned " S&W kept track of shipping dates, not manufacturing dates" UNTRUE ! Stop and think, a moment. Would a company like S&W not keep track of how many guns it was making each day? Especially when most of it's workers were paid on a piece rate basis?S&W kept daily logs, by Model and serial numbers, of guns manufactured. The problem is that S&W did not keep those logs, they kept the shipping logs, and that is what Roy Jinks uses to write factory letters, but usually he does not have access to the manufacturing records. For most collectors, a factory letter with the shipping info. and the gun's configuration when shipped, is satisfactory evidence of the gun's history. S&W disposed of the daily manufacturing logs years ago, however the vast majority of them were rescued from oblivion by diligent collectors, who now possess those logs, with the exception of the production logs for the Safety hammerless models, which some of us arranged to be donated to the S&W archives at the CVHM in Springfield about 2 yrs. ago. Possessors of the remaining logs in private hands are very close mouthed about them and location of these logs is a closely guarded secret, however those I've seen include guns made from the NM#3, Revolving Rifles, all top breaks, through K frames up to the 1930s. Maybe someday, the logs in private possession will be donated to the CVHM's S&W archives and if the SWHF get's the necessary funding to digitize them, then future factory letters can include the made dates as well as the shipping info. This will be of help to collectors, as the "build sheet" shows if a gun was a target model or a special order, which is sometimes missing from the shipping records, etc. Ed.

I've never seen anything about S&W's labor practices. In the 19th Century, a common model used in the firearms industry (and other industries as well) was called "Inside Contracting," i.e., many departments were operated by a contractor who supplied workers and supervision, who were not actually employees of the company. And the company paid the contractor by the piece produced, and he paid his workers. These were typically long-term labor relationships, and didn't change every few years. And accurate recordkeeping of production data would have been essential to pay the contractor. S&W may or may not have used inside contracting, I don't know.

Yes, S&W used what you call "inside contracting." A Foreman has a crew of workers that made guns as ordered by the company He was called a Floor Foreman and he would receive an order for X numbers of a certain model, with X finishes. He kept a daily log of the guns ordered and manufactured, by consecutive serial numbers. In almost every case, the orders from S&W for most models came in batches of 25, or multiples thereof. The Foreman was paid for completed guns and then paid his workers. From about the Civil War period the work was mostly done in the S&W plant. Prior to that, the Model One's parts were mostly made outside the plant in a cottage type industry, under a Foreman's supervision, and the parts were then assembled in the plant. This was typical of the gun industry in the Conn. Valley area. Ed.

Thanks for sharing that information. I find it quite interesting.

"Forum members, Ive often heard on this Forum, and elsewhere, that, as Muley Gil has mentioned " S&W kept track of shipping dates, not manufacturing dates" UNTRUE!"

Well, I guess I'll jest change my comment to "The S&W historian, Mr Roy Jinks, has access to most shipping records and that is the date he can provide through a factory letter.

__________________
John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

It's probably more correct to say that while some manufacturing records exist, they cannot be accessed. It has the same practical effect as the records not existing. Sort of like saying that there are detailed records of how much gold is stored in Fort Knox, but no one except for a select few is allowed access to them.