This followed be home from the flea market this morning. It's rough, but the serial number is 1019. I couldn't pass it up for $200.

I'd appreciate any opinions on how I did as well as any other information.

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I would have bought it too even with those grips. I turned your pictures and reposted them hope you don't mind OCD kicking In LOL.

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Thanks for flipping the pics for me! I snapped those with my iPhone on the counter while they were calling in my 4473. I'm going to try to take some better ones this afternoon.

I also need to go grip shopping this week.

As promised, here are some better photos

Very, very cool! I could not have passed that one up for $200 either.
The plastic (Franzite?) grips are awful, but otherwise this is a dandy and very early Winchester Model. Granted, the condition is not great, but it is a fun one to have because it is so early. And the rod knob is still in place, to boot!
If you can find some nice round butt black rubber stocks for it, it will look a lot better.
Congratulations!

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

Very neat 32 Winchester! Valuing this piece is problematic. On one hand, there were only just over 5000 made, but on the other hand the condition is rough. Normally, it would be a great shooter and worth somewhat more than you paid, but the scarcity of the model adds an unknown amount of money to the equation. Collectors seek out models that have a small production numbers, but collectors also want high condition guns. Actually selling it would be the only way you could determine what it is currently worth. Bottom line is that I would have certainly bought that one for $200.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Yes, the Franzites have to go

I just came to the realization a little while ago that I actually don't have a single other round butt K frame. There's a shop in Louisville that has sold me several sets of nice pre-war K frame grips at reasonable prices(as long as I have cash and the owner doesn't think I want them too badly ). I'll pay a visit out there this week and see if they can turn up some round butt hard rubbers. I know that the "dished" wood round butt style is tough to find, but if I can't find rubbers maybe I can at least turn up some sort of round butt prewar grips that would be a little bit closer to correct.

The timing and lock-up are good on this one, so I might even have to take it to the range and shoot it . I keep my 32-20s loaded light anyway, but I'm assuming that this is new enough that a lightish charge of smokeless(maybe around 3gr Bullseye under a 100gr LFP) would be safe in it.

I should also add that I'm planning on holding on to it, so I'm not overly concerned about value. I mostly just want to make sure I didn't overpay, and it sounds like I didn't! This is actually the first model of 1899 that I've seen in person(even though I've read about them and knew what they looked like). I made a bit of an idiot of myself when I asked to see the Colt in the case(due to the lack of the front locking lug) but corrected myself pretty quickly when I realized what I was looking at.

I'm also very tempted to letter this one. I know that it can be hit or miss as to whether it turns up something interesting, but I feel like the chances are better on something this old. Any thoughts on whether or not that would add appreciably to the gun?

The current value for this gun, as of today, is $200. Its value, as of this moment, is
what it sold for, because that is the most recent transaction.

Tomorrow, if you can find someone to give you $400 for it, then its value at that
point is $400. On the other hand, if you still have it a year from now, and someone
offers $100, and you take it, then that is the value at that moment.

Each gun is unique and different in its own way. There is only one gun exactly like
yours, and it is, in fact, this one. The transaction is one-on-one. There is one buyer,
one seller, and one gun. Its not like the stock market, for example, where there are
millions and millions of exactly the same shares of IBM for sale, and there are
thousands and thousands of buyers.

The only way you can ascertain if it is worth more or less that $200 - now - is to
offer it for sale at some other price, and see what happens.

Was the gun a good buy ? Probably just an OK deal. I doubt you could sell it for
more, given the poor condition of the finish, and all the rust and pitting that it shows.
Could you have gotten it for less ? Perhaps if you put $175 cash in front of the
seller, he might have taken it. Or he might not have.

Regards, Mike Priwer

I think that Mike is correct on the value.

Re: the Franzite grips. Even though we may, today, consider them pretty unattractive, it hasn't always been that way. From the decade preceding WWII up to the decade following it they were very popular. In fact, they were the standard grip for several manufacturers.

Today we tend to put them in the same category of lava lamps and pink yard flamingos, I certainly wouldn't throw them away. Just remember that they were what suited the last owner who actually used that gun. If you google franzitegrips you will find some very interesting information.

If you know of a young person that you would like to encourage into the collecting field, collecting Franzite grips might be a good field to get them started in. They are multiple varieties, they are pretty common at gun shows, and they are inexpensive. What more could be asked of a field for a fledgling collector.

Bob

I like your revolver. I have a 1902 no change, in slightly better condition with jigged bone grips. I shoot mine with 117 lead over Trail Boss. I also have a Colt Police Positive Special from 1919 in 32-20, I think yours looks better than my Colt, I use the same loads in it.

The only problem with the pre 1905 S&W is the springs are flat and nearly impossible to get replacements for. So don't break anything! Ivan

The gun has no real collectable value, but if it functions OK then as a shooter, it's probably worth the $200. Personally, I would not spend a lot of money to buy round butt hard rubber grips for it because as a shooter the Franzites will give you a much better hold on the gun and improve your accuracy, than the smaller hard rubber grips. 32-20 ammo. is not in every store, either, and when it is found, it's expensive, so if you want to do much shooting, start reloading. .32-20 is pleasant to shoot. It's also a good bet that the gun will only letter to a distributor, since it has no rare features that might indicate a special order by an individual. These 32-20 S&W M&Ps were popular at the time as Winchester's Model 1892 rifles and carbines were very popular then, and you could have a side arm and a long gun in the same caliber. The drawback was that the .32-20 rifle rounds were loaded to a higher pressure than some handguns could stand, so Winchester eventually marketed handgun .32-20 ammo with lower pressures. The Rifle ammo was then marked "For Rifles Only" Ed.

As you have stated, it's an early .32-20 Hand Ejector, Model of 1899 Military Revolver, the first iteration of the S&W K-frame revolver series which eventually culminated in the Model 10. Those in .32-20 are somewhat less common than those chambered in .38 Special. It's not that often that any 1899s are found in much better condition than yours, but ones in better condition do exist. I'd say it certainly will have some collectible value, if only because of its relative rarity and the fact that is the first of its line made by S&W. I'd sure jump on it for $200 without hesitation. The little knob on the end of extractor rod is worth a fair piece of change all by itself. It's not difficult to find replica black plastic round butt grips. Just Google. Original K-frame black rubber RB grips in good condition are somewhat more difficult to find. Look on eBay. Some occasionally show up there. And yes, Franzite grips still have some appeal due to their past popularity.

Dwalt

You are right about the price of the nobs. I have to sell them for $95, but that is
because that is what machine shop time is worth to make them up. And then it costs
another $20 or so to get them blued.

Regards, Mike Priwer

One othe quick question-I pulled the crane last night, and it appears as though the hold-open spring is present but the ball detent(or whatever it is that actually locks into the frame) is missing. I know this is not uncommon, but I'd like to fix it none the less. Is there a readily sourced replacement for this part?

What I find fascinating is that back in the day a company offered aftermarket stocks that converted a round but to a square butt configuration. Who'da Thunk?? I think most of us tend to think that's a more modern creation, at least in a magna style stock.
Ya learn something new all the time!

I know that this has been posted here before, but for those so interested here is the 1899 action. If I get brave this week, I will give this a full detail clean. I don't see a lot of firing residue, but there's a whole lot of old oil and other crud in it.

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.32 WCF M1899's are way cool!

How is the bore?

I love mine, shown in

M1899 Followed Me Home...

It shoots great with modern CAS .32-20 loads.

Once you get yours de-funked, be sure to hit the range!

Unfortunately, the bore leaves a little something to be desired. I've seen worse, but also seen better. I haven't had a chance to brush it yet, but did put a healthy squirt of Ballistol down it last night. I'll probably do the same again today, and then go to work on it tomorrow. The rifling is still visible, so I'm hoping that some work with a bronze brush and a few patches will help things along some.

I'll try the suggested load of Trailboss, as well as some other lighter loads. I've had a newer(1920s) model of 1905 for a while now that I've shot a LOT and have reloaded a lot for(I think I've only bought one box of factory 32-20, and that was the tipping point that made me get into reloading), although I've mostly stuck to Unique and Bullseye loads for it.

I always enjoy the distinctive "crack" that a 32-20 gives at the range-I suppose due to the fact that even most relatively light loads are supersonic. Even though a 32-20 is not especially loud, it seems to always get folks looking my way.

I'll report back when I've had a chance to take this one out. One nice thing about buying guns in this condition as that I don't have any reservations about(carefully) shooting them.

When detail stripping there are a couple tricks to make it easier. Mike Priwer gave me a step by step back when I got mine a few years ago. It involved making a wooden dowel just the right length, then compressing the trigger return spring with a padded jaw vice grip and inserting the wood dowel to hold it compressed to enable everything else to easily be removed, and freeing up both hands to be able to do it.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

Richard

Ah yes - I remember that !

Ben

As to the detent , its a pin with one end flat and one end rounded. You can figure out
the size by inserting number-drills until you find the one that fits best. Don't use
that bit as the detent pin, as drill rod is too hard.

You can try heating the drill to red hot, and then letting it air-cool. You may have to
do this more than once, until you can mark the drill with a file. That should be soft
enough to allow you to cut it to the right length, and round over one end. Don't
re-temper it - leave it in the soft state. That should be about right for the steel in
the 32-20.

Regards, Mike Priwer

Thank you for the description.

I am a watchmaker as another hobby, so will probably try turning something of the correct size, length, and shape on the lathe. Fortunately, tempered steel is a lot easier to turn, so that should make things a lot easier for many reasons!

If this was a post on the forum, I'd appreciate a link to it. I've been searching but have been unable to turn it up.

Given the scarcity of parts and how different it is from any other S&W I've worked on, I'm a bit afraid to just blindly tear into it! I did pop the sideplate(as I pictured above) and sprayed it liberally with Ballistol, but really would like to do a proper detail strip and clean on it. In particular, I've noticed that the cylinder release is a bit "tight" and often has to be manually retracted after pushing the cylinder back in-I'm hoping that this is just a result of old grease and other crud down in it.

Actually, the shank end of a drill bit is not hardened much, if at all. If they were, my drill press wouldn't bugger them up when the bit slips.

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Tom
1560

I found the instructions on the "dowel trick" and managed to sucessfully get the gun apart and back together even though I had to cut three dowels to get one exactly the correct size . I did end up lightly stoning a few parts(non-action surfaces) with a hard Arkansas stone to get the surface rust off of them. I also think that I need to take the cylinder latch out and work on it again, as it still sticks in the forward position some.

Overall, though, a good cleaning definitely improved the feel of the action. Despite the bore looking like a sewer pipe, I really don't think that this gun has been shot much, as endshake and lockup are still very tight.

This one won't win any beauty contests, but I'm very happy with it, especially for the price. As I mentioned, this is actually the first 1899 model that I've even seen in person, and I'm just excited that it's in one of my favorite calibers, as well as being at a price I could afford.

"Despite the bore looking like a sewer pipe..."

I doubt if it's worth the time and expense, but it might be possible to install a barrel liner if you really wanted to shoot it. Liners are avaiable: http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/637/1 and it's actually not a terribly difficult job to do. I have relined several rifles without any real problems, but never a revolver.

I've shot guns with worse bores that actually shot at least decent, so I'm going to hold off doing anything until I have a chance to take it to the range. Even though the bore is pitted, the rifling is at least all there and prominent, so I think it may actually do okay.

I'm actually all out of 32-20 at the moment, but I'm going to try and load up 50 or 100 rounds tonight and swing by the range tomorrow if I get a chance. I'll report back if I do.

I've got 50 rounds with 3.5gr W231 under a 100gr LRNFP ready to go-I'm going to stop by the range after work this evening if I get a chance, and will report back here on how it shoots!

I even broke out some fresh nickel Starline brass for the occasion

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I would at least contact Vintage Gun Grips - Colt Grips - Gun Grips - Pistol Grips - Buttplates - Forends - Grip Caps for some new grips if you don't want to spend too much money on the real thing.

I have to disagree with you. I think companies like that should never be patronized. The name of the company is misleading, the product they make is designed to look in pictures like the original thing, but once you get it they are nothing at all like what you were expecting to buy. On top of all that the product (in the two cases I have personally been in contact with it) is so shoddy as to not work at all.

The husqvarna 1907 grips on my friend's pistol don't work at all because they paid no attention to how you connect them to the gun. They are plastic molded in the shape of the correct grips and nothing more.

I find "vintage" gun grips to be a reprehensible company and I think the grips that are on there are better then what "Vintage" Gun Grips makes.

WOW - just WOW! I have purchased stocks from Vintage and with some fitting, they gave respectable performance, but sorry to hear about your bad luck. I think you seem a little too critical and one must remember what they are - simply molded plastic replica made from original stocks. If the pattern is not correct, or was not representative of the "standard" stocks, then I am sure your money would be refunded. There are other companies out there, but all seem about the same quality.

My only concern is that the shipped total cost of a K frame round butt black stock set is more than you can buy an OK set of originals for on ebay. They get expensive by the time you order the screw, estcheons, and pay shipping.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Well, I did manage to make it to the range today.

I'm a bit embarrassed to post the target, but considering that the bore leaves a lot to be desired, and I always have a hard time seeing the "half penny" front sight on early guns, I suppose it's not too bad. I did at least manage to keep everything on the target!

I also went grip shopping today, and all I found were a set of reproduction hard rubbers without the screw and eustaceon-I passed on them. So, I tried my backup plan and called Dick(rburg), who said that he might be able to turn up a set of dished walnut grips but didn't give any promises.

In the worst case, I'll keep my eyes on Ebay and the local gun shows, and see if something turns up.

I have a Model 1899 or 1st Model K-frame 32-20 SN 514 that I got about 9 or 19 years ago for $275. The low SN should put its date around 1899 or 1900. It has a 6 1/2" bbl and original black rubber grips.
It has almost no finish like yours, but no visible rust. I suspect someone in the past has polished all the original blue off. The only remaining blue is in the cylinder flutes and inside the frame. There is evidence of slight pitting under the cylinder where the trigger finger enters the trigger guard and on the left side where the, above the grip, thumb encounters the frame.
The front of the cylinder is rough and there is a depression all the way around the cylinder about 1/4" to 3/16" from the front probably from shooting black powder shells without cleaning. I would guess this indicates it was a "working gun" that was constantly carried.
The grips are worn nearly smooth which again indicates considerable use.
I have not and probably would not shoot it, as the cylinder has some forward and backward movement (possibly 1/32" or less) and similar rotational movement. In addition, the tips of the star on the extractor are all broken off. I don't know what would be the reason for that. Can anyone help me with that?
The pin holding the firing pin on the hammer apparently was broken at some time and replaced. The existing pin shows evidence of having been hammered down to hold it in place and it seems to work.
The bbl is very dark but seems to have good rifling. I have not tried to polish it.
All in all this is not the type of gun a real collector would call desirable, but I am proud of it and enjoy having it in my collection. It was obviously a real "working gun". I just wish I knew more about its history.

Sorry, that should read 9 or 10 years ago.

Dick sold me a pair of grips that are too new for the gun, but at least look a lot better

I found a more appropriate set of grips...

Want a refund?

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Dick Burg

I like the ones I bought from you too well .

Now I have an excuse to look for a gun appropriate for them to go on.

I bought the hard rubber ones from the same guy who had the 16-4. I guess I was too busy drooling over the gun to notice his grip case until about 4:00 this afternoon. He hurt me as badly for these as you did for the wood ones, although they are nice and fit really well on the gun.

I thought the gun deserved better photos with the appropriate grips on it





I also can't resist showing off the beautiful set of gold medallions that Dick sold me and were on the gun for about 4 hours

I'll find the right gun to put these on one of these days-in the mean time I'll just enjoy them as-is.