Hi Guys, I just joined this forum. I finally got my dream Pre 29. I live in California and found this Pre 29 on the Calguns forum. The previous owner lived close by and we did a PPT at Rettings in Culver City, Ca.. Living in CA, I felt lucky to find it.

The guy I bought it from had the Pre 29 for 20 years. He said he bought it from the guy that invented “Armor All”. The guy I bought it from never shot it, because he thought it was unfired and he already had a 8-3/4" M29 that he was shooting. It looks unfired to me. No black at all on the front of the cylinder and forcing code, and the rear cylinder lugs and bushing are all still blued. There is zero flame cutting on the top strap.

The previous owner used that "gold lettering" stuff to fill in the lettering, but, some of it has come off. After the 10 day wait period, I plan to clean out the gold lettering.

My Pre 29 is a very early 4 screw with serial number s1679xx. There is no serial number on the yoke. The serial number is on the butt. There is a 0 and an assembly number on the yoke. I did not see a serial number on the barrel or cylinder.
The 4 screw box has the serial number written on the bottom with a white grease pencil.

I am wondering how many Pre 29 four screws were built between serial numbers s167500 and s179000 ?

I would love to hear your comments about my new Pre 29. Here are some pics. I am kind of debating if I should shoot it or not. I was ecstatic to find one in this condition. The DA action is so, so, smooth. The single action trips at 3 lbs. or so with no creep. Thanks in advance for any comments. Take care, Harry.

Congrats on an early 4-screw!
I have a pre-Model 29 4-screw serial# S169454, which shipped February, 1957.

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John

Wow! That's a beauty. Thanks for the nice pictures.
John

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Scoundrel & Ne'er-Do-Well

Thanks ! I am pretty excited by it. Your gun is a pretty close serial number. I think I will pay for the letter from S&W. Maybe, mine was shipped in 1956 ? That would be cool.. but, I doubt it. Probably early 1957 like yours. Your gun has the serial number on the yoke ? correct ?

That's a great first post and a beautify gun. Welcome to the forum. I would have a hard time shooting that. Others will disagree.

Congrats on your Pre 29; it sure is a beauty. If it was up to me I would display it in its case so at a minimum you can see it all the time and by no means fire it. A couple of notes; try and get the sight adjustment tool (SAT) and if your case needs refinishing there is an expert on this forum who does it. About a year ago I bought a pre 29; 5 screw, the box needed to be relined and I had to find tools - mission accomplished a few months ago. So what is next???

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Baby Chief Admirer
SWCA 2870

Just might be me. The sideplate looks a different shade. Is the extractor rod tip in the white?

Welcome to the forum. You can learn a lot here. And congratulations on the 4-screw...it's a beautiful gun, and will be even more beautiful when you get that gold fill off.

Thanks your feedback. Regarding the sideplate color, it is the way the light is reflecting in the photos given to me from the previous owner. It looks like he used a flash or something. When I inspected it, the blue color is the same. The Screws look untouched. The ones I took with my iphone are the photos on top of my Wilson Combat bag at Rettings Guns. The color is more accurate on these photos. Regarding the extractor, the blue has worn off the tip from opening the cylinder, but, you can still see the blue on the extractor tube. The gun is still in jail, so, I cannot take more pics, but, here are a few more the previous owner gave me.

There is one "acid" finger print right on the cylinder shroud that I guess nothing can be done about it. See pic. I am open to suggestions ?? I did notice with a bright flashlight a very slight "plum" color on the barrel, but, it all seemed normal. I believe it is an honest gun. You might see it in these pics. Thanks.

Welcome to the Forum. Very nice Model 29 and am sure it is in near 100% condition . . . BUT . . . stories without documentation means nothing to the next owner. I assume that the original owner would not be able to document the unfired claim, so about all that can be said with certainty is that it is a mint example of an early Model 29.

The things that are positive are no muzzle wear, no wear to the stocks, no scratches or blemishes to the bluing, and as stated no powder residue on the cylinder. The things that are negative are the ring on the cylinder, the fact that it must have been in and out of the box enough times to rip the lining, the fact the swab looks dirty, the gold filled stampngs, the poor fitting/or loose sideplate with different looking finish, and the missing SAT.

Personally, I would buy such a gun if the price reflected the current condition, but no added premium for being reported as unfired. I would probably not shoot it and would have the case lining repaired as said above.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Thanks for your feeback. I attached another picture of the side plate. The color difference is from the flash, so, that is not a concern for me, but, Do you really think the side plate is poor fitting? After I inspected it, I did not believe that the sideplate had been touched at all.

What Gary is referring to is the seam line around the sideplate. It should be a seamless fit because the parts are polished together when the gun was made.

The extractor rod tip should be in the white from the factory.

Welcome and nice .44 Magnum. Of course this is your dream gun... your name is HARRY!
I'm wondering when S&W started numbering the rear of the cylinder.
Yours isn't numbered but the cylinder on my four screw #178734 is numbered.

PS. I shoot mine!

Thanks ! Here is another pic of the sideplate, screws, seam & butt. I appreciate your feedback.

Over time, you will know whether you want to shoot it or not. It's a personal thing and there is no right or wrong answer.

Interesting that they only offered those early ones with 4 and 6-1/2 inch barrels (different barrel lengths were added in 1958, per Mr. Jinks). I thought that one looked a little longer than six inches.

Welcome to the Forum! That was quite an entrance!

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You're shy a few manners.

Oh, no! Look at that crack in the frame next to the hammer It looks like a great gun to me. Nice find!

Yes, mine has the serial number in the yoke, but not on the cylinder.

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John

4 screw 44 magnums did not ship until 1957 or thereafter. In the first year, 1956, every 44 magnum shipped had a 5 screw frame. By 1957, guns were being assembled with the then new 4 screw frame. Of course, S&W would not waste any good 5 screw frames, so many 5 screw guns were shipped in 1957 as well. Basically, they used up the "old" parts on hand, and at some point, when the 5 screw frames were used up, all they would have are the newly made 4 screw frames.

I would estimate over 1000 if not more in that SN range. The 44 magnum was the popular "new kid on the block" at that time, and 44 magnums were selling well by then. However, that SN range was shared by about 8 or so different N frame models. 357 magnums were strong sellers, both the "357 magnum" (pre 27) and the Highway Patrolman (pre 28).

As far as whether or not the finish is original to this gun, I unfortunately am of the opinion that is is reblued. As others have said, the seam around the side plate is very wide compared to factory original guns. The best way I can describe the side plate seam is that it should look like a hair fell off someone's head and landed on the frame, by the cylinder and half way went around it. It really should be no bigger than a hair, literally. The sideplates were fit PERFECTLY to the revolver, which adds significantly to the aesthetics of these fine revolvers. When you hold a S&W, you know you are holding quality.

Here is a picture of an earlier 44 magnum I have in my personal collection, S130937. This 44 magnum shipped 4-2-56. Note the hairline of the side plate.



Below is a pic of your side plate. I placed red circles around the areas where a significant gap can be seen. This is one indication that your gun is likely to be reblued.



Aside from that, several edges appear to be a rounded on your gun. Although from the pics, I would have to see the gun in person to say anything for sure regarding that topic.

In this picture, you show the rear face of the cylinder. This photo is key to my inclination that your gun is refinished - the ratchet teeth of the extractor are all blued. The flat "tips" of the teeth should be found in the white in this era.



Here is a pic of what the extractor should look like.



And finally, the other clue that I think tells us this gun was likely refinished is its "unfired" status. As glowe has pointed out, the gun appears to have seen some use, BUT at the same time, as you have pointed out, there are no sure signs of firing on the gun. Now of course, proper cleaning can hide some signs of firing, BUT another way to hide the signs of firing is a refinish. If someone takes a gun and refinishes it, after it is done, the new finish will not show signs it was fired. Of course, there could be flaws/marks in the metal that indicate firing BUT the finish itself will not show anything.

Sorry to say, but I believe (assuming what you were told is true) that the first owner or someone prior to him had the gun reblued, (not by the factory) and later sold it to the guy you bought it from. The guy you bought it from keyed into how the finish was free of defect, without signs of firing and left it that way. Then, you bought it and noticed the same things he did.

Of course, I could be wrong, but above is my hunch, and I'm pretty sure I'm right, although the gun is not in my hands. I only have your pics, story and my experience to draw from. Don't feel bad if it ends up the gun was refinished because everyone on this forum has made mistakes with S&Ws including myself, and depending on how you view it, some would say it wasn't a mistake at all. The gun still has value, and you can't put a "price" on most learning experiences.

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}-----Jim----->
~SWCA #2732~

Thanks for your feedback. I found these pictures on the web of S&Ws with similar bluing on the Cylinder cam/lugs. They are probably later S&Ws, but, it seems common ? I would appreciate your opinion. Thanks.

Doesn't the O stamp on the yoke cut mean a factory rework ? The O is rarely seen as opposed to the diamond or the date stamping. With or without a stamp I'm sure it's been refinished.

Chad

Not sure if it has been mentioned, but the inside of the sideplate has an assembly number stamped that matches the same number elsewhere on the gun.
Once you receive the gun from jail, you can atleast confirm that the sideplate is original or not.
Be careful when removing sideplate. I agree with previous comments about unusual discrepancies with seam mating to frame

Nice Pre 29! You didn't mention what you paid but it could have still been a good deal even with a refinish. It could have been refinished by S&W, look under the left grip on the frame when it arrives. A lot of folks will trash one if it was refinished but to me an early refinish in the original style Carbonia finished by the factory doesn't hurt the value too much. I'll take one like that all day at a decent price before one that looked like it was dragged behind a car. They're not making anymore Pre 29 and in a few years even early factory refinished ones will be bringing big bucks. Check David Carrolls website and look at what a like new Pre 29 is bringing.

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Get off my lawn!

A 0 (zero) is stamped on the lower left hand corner of the grip frame, not in the yoke cut on the frame of the 44 and 41 Magnum. Some collectors believe a large O stamped there indicates a refinish. I am not sure about this.

Bill

Thanks, Here is a pic of the grip frame. There is 0 at the bottom left.

I paid $2,750 based on it being an original gun, not refinish. I thought that was a fair deal. The seller also really believed it was original, so, I do not fault him. He is a nice guy on Calguns and will probably let me return it after the 10 days are up, C&R PPT transfer. I will offer to pay the transfer fees. It is really a disappointment to me. It is so hard to find one of these in California that someone wants to sell.

Thanks for all your guys help. I really appreciate it.

Your exactly right, Bill, but I'm not talking about the O on the grip frame on this particular gun. I'm talking about the O in the yoke cut as seen in the fourth picture down from the top. See what you think....

Chad

I hope none of the above comments were taken wrong I am sure no offence was intended. You asked for comments about your purchase and received honest ones from some of the most knowledgeable people on the subject (myself excluded of course) that I know. I still consider myself new at this and learn something every time I get on here. It is a nice gun just not exactly in the condition you thought it was in. Take heart you will find the one that is right for you.

On the contrary, I thought everyone was really nice to me on this forum. I really wanted to know the straight scoop on the gun, and I really appreciate you guys taking the time to show me why it is a refinish. Unfortunately, it did not work out like I expected, but, reality is reality, you can't change it. No reason to sugar coat it or try to change it.

I do not know what the gun is worth now as a "refinish", but, I do not think it is worth the $2750 I paid, so, I will try to return it to the seller. Thanks again.

This one of the reason to be totally honest about a gun posted. No one wants to beat up a guy, only help. Sounds like we helped and I hope everything goes well returning the gun.

Chad

Be sure to print this entire thread out to show the Seller.You have some of the most experienced S&W Collectors thinking the Gun has been refinished.

A comment about the cylinder ratchet on the extractor...it was all blue on the 44 Magnum through 1956. I know it was changed to the type shown in Post #19 by July 1957, but I don't know when the change occurred and don't have any examples to check.

Bill

Thanks, I appreciate it ! So, because it is a really early 4 screw, the bluing on the ratchet might be normal, still to be confirmed.. One question... In the picture I posted, does the Zero (0) on the bottom of the left side of the grip frame absolutely indicate a refinish at the factory ? Is that an absolute rule ? Thanks

No, the O on the grip frame has nothing to do with a rework. I believe the one on the yoke cut does... Even without the "O" I am sure your gun is refinished. The side plate does not match the gun or fit correctly. Return the gun and put that money towards an original one.

Chad

My 5 screw has an O on the grip frame and has not been refinished;
The SN is S154506, shipped in 1956.

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Baby Chief Admirer
SWCA 2870

Chad if I recall correctly we discussd the O when David Carroll did his buying/selling presentation in Columbus at this year's Symposium

It was thought the O in the yoke meant a Rework before it left the factory, not a for sure Reblue, just Work done before it ever left the factory for the first time.

Thanks Jim !!

The ratchets on my pre 29 S1718xx are in the white. The nearest previous examples I have are two pre model 27s S1591xx and S1593xx that are both blued. Perhaps that helps some.

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Richard Gillespie
FBINA 102

Maybe it`s just the picture angles, but the hammer looks to be bent down more than I`ve noticed before.

The only s&w revolver I had with a blued extractor with original finish was a early pre 17.

I noticed the same thing.....

A few target hammers were forged that way. I have had a couple of 44 Magnums with hammers like the one on the revolver posted.

Bill

Thanks for that info !

I zoomed in on this different angle of the side plate.
The fit looks good from this angle. What do you think ?

The color is actually not different than the rest of the gun, it is just the angle of the shot.
I will also post some new macro shots for your evaluation when the gun gets out of jail.

I was Looking at the scratches on the sideplate post 9. It appears the scratches don't continue on to the frame. I personally think The gun was refinished at one time and the sideplate was replaced sometime after. I really don't think that's the original sideplate.

The grips seem not used much, and original. They fit the gun very tight, no gaps on the back strap. They also have marks on the inside that match perfectly the frame that indicate they have been on that gun for a long time. I have seen a lot of coke grips that do not fit well on Pre 29s. Not this one, the grips fit correctly. So, assuming the grips are original, and there is no flame cutting on the top strap, no visible wear on the forcing cone, case hardening on trigger and hammer look unworn, and the cylinder crane flips in and out firmly, and not loosely, what possible reason would there be to replace the side plate ? I also do not see any rounding of corners to indicate a refinish on that last picture I attached. The screws on the side plate look untouched and almost clocked to the same position.

Note: The finish does look oxidized in some areas with a flash. I plan to polish that up a little.

Doc also said that "a few target hammers were forged like the hammer on my Pre 29". So, if the frame and hammer are from the same time frame, then, we can probably assume they go together. There is no wear on the hammer case hardening.

I will get take some good macro shots of all parts of the gun when I get it out of jail and we can take another look. I would appreciate it if you guys can continue to help me with the detective work. I will also send away to S&W to track its history. Thanks again.

Yes, I think so. My Pre 29 serial is s1679xx, so, that serial number could be consistent with blued ratchets -- I guess..

Hello Guys, I went to pick up the Pre 29 today. I shined it up with Flitz and took more pictures. it was pretty oxidized, so, it came out good. Let me know what you think? I appreciate all the feedback.

PS. While I was picking it up at Rettings, I could not resist a primo Pre 27 ! but, that is for another thread.. Look for it.

schwingg!!

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Cheers, Charles
SWCA #2442

Ok, I got concerned about the side plate and took it off. The Assembly numbers match between the sideplate, yoke, & frame, whew !
There is no serial numbers on the cylinder or extractor, just the butt of the grip frame. I am attaching some pics. Thanks for any feedback.

The plum tint on the barrel and cylinder makes me think the revolver has been refinished. I have never seen this before on a carbonia blue. Is the tip of the extractor rod in the white?DSCN1146.jpg Also would like to add the white outline on the rear sight blade is gone.

Yes, both end of the extractor are white. Here are some pics.