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01-19-2015, 05:18 PM
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Unmarked K38
Hello,
I have an unmarked K38 Combat Masterpiece. It belonged to my grandfather and has been passed down to me. It has maybe 200 rounds through it and is in 95% condition. I'm trying to approximate the value of this firearm just out of personal interest. If anyone can help it would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you
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01-19-2015, 05:21 PM
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Welcome to the forum. I'm not sure what you mean by "unmarked". Can you clarify?
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01-19-2015, 05:35 PM
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Unmarked as in it is a K38, however it does not have the "K" in the serial number. I know it was a very early production, before the "K" was in the serial number
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01-19-2015, 05:39 PM
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What is the serial number on the bottom of the grip frame? If Theres no k,it's not a K-38.
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01-19-2015, 05:44 PM
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Methinks if you'll look to the far left of the number part of the serial number (on the butt), you will see a 'K'; just sitting there---all by its lonesome. And if you find it, don't bother asking why----because the answer is: Just 'cause it is.
Ralph Tremaine
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01-19-2015, 05:55 PM
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Wecome to the Forum Matt. If it doesn't have a "K" on the butt preceeding the number, then it's not a K38.
How about some pictures?
Does it have a adjustable rear sight?
Is it 38 special?
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01-19-2015, 10:13 PM
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I did some research on it and I found that the very early production guns were not marked with a K. It does not have one. The information I found could be incorrect. It is .38 special and it does have adjustable sights. From my own research and a gunsmith I took it to it is a K38, however it doesn't have a K
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01-19-2015, 10:18 PM
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I'm afraid we are going to need pictures......
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Dean
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01-19-2015, 10:21 PM
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You'll have to post at least part of the serial number, for any of us to help.
You can make the last three digits XXX if you don't want to disclose the full serial
number.
K-38 is given to post-WW2 revolvers. They have a K as part of the serial number -
sometimes close to the other digits, other times to the left of the serial number.
Very early post-WW2 K-frames will have an S as the prefix to the serial number,
and they are in S800000 and S900000 serial number range.
Pre-WW2 target .38 K-frames have no letter in the serial number - just digits.
They start at 1, and go to 999999 . There are other guns in this serial number range,
including early K-22's . And of course, most of these are not targets, but fixed sight
guns.
Mike Priwer
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01-19-2015, 10:50 PM
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Serial number is 119111. Still no K
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01-19-2015, 11:07 PM
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Matt - it sounds like this could be a much older revolver based on that number - like between 1906 and 1909 if it is a .38 special caliber. It would be really helpful to have pictures. We're eager to see it!
(I wonder if someone could have removed and restamped the butt?)
Last edited by jmace57; 01-19-2015 at 11:08 PM.
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01-19-2015, 11:08 PM
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Serial number is 119111. Still no K
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01-19-2015, 11:09 PM
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Ill go take some and post them. Again it was my grandfather's ( so I thought) but it could have been his father's who was a beat cop in philly in the 20's and 30's
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01-19-2015, 11:16 PM
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Does it have a ribbed barrel??
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Dean
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01-19-2015, 11:16 PM
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No. Posting pictures now
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01-19-2015, 11:19 PM
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Then you might have an old M&P 38 Target. If so, that's a keeper, having considerable more value (in addition to being Grandpa's) than the more common fixed sighted versions.
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01-19-2015, 11:27 PM
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01-19-2015, 11:43 PM
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What you have is a pre-1957 .38 Combat Masterpiece, wearing a very desirable pair of non-relieved target grips. Later models of the grip had a football shaped cutout on the top of the left grip to facilitate loading and removal of fired cases.
Your .38 looks to be in very fine condition. Excellent gun.
Please look on the bottom of the grip frame with the grips removed. There should be a serial number in that location.
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01-19-2015, 11:57 PM
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The serial number should be repeated on the flat underside of the barrel and the rear face of the cylinder, as well as a couple of other places that are harder to read. One you might have luck with is the underside of the ejector star.
The gun would date to between 1950 and 1955; I suspect the target stocks are original, which might date the gun to early in that range.
The name "Combat Masterpiece" does not mean this model was designed for use in armed confrontations; it's just the terminology applied to the Masterpiece model with a ramped front sight and a four-inch barrel. Some of these were in fact issued to police forces, but they are still basically target revolvers, like their larger brothers with the six-inch barrels.
Very nice specimen.
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01-20-2015, 12:05 AM
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The number you presented several posts above (119111) is most likely an assembly number that was stamped on the inside of the frame where the crane and cylinder close (that is where SNs on later guns were stamped). The early post war guns had the serial number stamped in several places, namely: 1) the butt of the gun (under the grips), 2) the rear face of the cylinder, 3) the barrel flat, where the barrel was flattened to allow for the ejector rod to close, 4) the inside of the crane facing the front of the cylinder, 5) the back of the ejector star. I would be very surprised if these locations did not have a SN with a "K" in it.
In the meantime, I echo JC's comments that you have a very nice K-38 Combat Masterpiece that most likely shipped sometime in the early to mid 1950's.
With the grips on the gun (correct vintage, but perhaps not original to the gun) it is probably worth in the $500 - $700 range.
[Edited to add: I see that David was faster on the Keyboard than I was. So take my comments above as a second voice...]
Thanks for sharing,
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Last edited by RKmesa; 01-20-2015 at 12:08 AM.
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01-20-2015, 09:55 AM
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Thank you for all of your help. The grips are original to my belief and the serial number I gave did come from the butt of the gun. It is also marked on the cylinder.
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01-20-2015, 10:16 AM
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Matt, would you take a minute to do one more thing? Remove the grips and take a look on the inside of the grip panels to see if the serial number is marked on the grips and while you're there, please take a pic of the grip marking (if any) AND the bottom of the butt of the frame. We are all eager to see this.
Last edited by MrSurly; 01-20-2015 at 10:19 AM.
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01-20-2015, 11:37 AM
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K 119111 likely shipped in 1951.
Two possible explanations for the absent "K" are it was polished off or omitted, but the chances of it being left off the cylinder face, barrel flat, etc. are very small. In this era the K may be stamped well off to the left of the digits on the bottom of the grip frame.
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01-20-2015, 01:12 PM
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There is no sign of the K being polished off. All parts of the gun are in pristine condition and there are no blemishes that indicate the removal of the K. I am still a bit confused as to why it is not present.
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01-20-2015, 01:20 PM
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There is no doubt that the gun is post-WW2. The only possibility, I would think, is that
the K was omitted, for some reason or other. I've never heard of that happening, and
the probability is very very low, but its still possible.
I, and others, would like to see a picture of the butt, and the rear face of the cylinder. I doubt any of us have ever seen a post-WW2 .38 target, this early, without the K in the
serial number.
Regards, Mike Priwer
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01-20-2015, 01:41 PM
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Very nice K-38 Combat Masterpiece that most likely was shipped in 1951. The serial number should be K119111, but sometimes S&W didn't always do things correctly, and in this case, the K was omitted. This type of thing happens very infrequently, but it does happen. It does not impact the value of the revolver in any way.
The first serial number in the K series, K101, dates to 1946. The Combat Masterpiece line was introduced by S&W in 1950.
Bill
Last edited by Doc44; 01-20-2015 at 01:42 PM.
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01-20-2015, 01:45 PM
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Just to confuse the issue, ordnanceguy and I examined a K-38 at the Lakeland Fl. Gun show last weekend that was also in the low 100,000 serial number range. The serial number on the cylinder and the barrel flat had the K prefix but the serial number on the butt had no K- no evidence of it at all.
"An anomaly" was our pronouncement and we moved on to the model 17-3 with an 8 3/8" barrel marked ".22 M.R.F."
Regards,
turnerriver
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01-20-2015, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by murphydog
K 119111 likely shipped in 1951.
Two possible explanations for the absent "K" are it was polished off or omitted, but the chances of it being left off the cylinder face, barrel flat, etc. are very small. In this era the K may be stamped well off to the left of the digits on the bottom of the grip frame.
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In the for-what's-it-worth department . . . I checked nearby Combat Masterpiece s/n K120952. In addition to appearing on the cylinder and barrel flat, the K also appears in the serial number on the butt, but there is a 5/8" space between the K and the digit 1 . . . looks like "K________120952" . . . and the K is on the very edge of the butt near the toe.
I recall reading somewhere that the letter K was pre-stamped on the target frame butt at an earlier stage of production . . . before the s/n was assigned and machine stamped. If that's true I can see how the K could have been missed but the six digits still stamped in the normal fashion.
Russ
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01-20-2015, 04:55 PM
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I don't know if it'll show up, it's hard to see on my tablet, but the "K" on my K22 is a long way from the number too.
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01-20-2015, 05:08 PM
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K and S stampings were separated from the numbers in the 50s. Near the end of the decade the letter and numbers were brought together because dealers and distributors were incorrectly recording the serial numbers of the revolvers in inventory (i.e. leaving out the K or the S).
Bill
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01-21-2015, 10:48 AM
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IMG_1112.jpg
IMG_1113.jpg
Here is a picture of the cylinder and on the butt under the grips. The grips were not serialized.
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01-21-2015, 11:03 AM
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OK, that is officially unusual . The Target stocks were usually not serial numbered to the gun, as they were considered to be "universal fit". It's a nice .38 Combat Masterpiece, enjoy!
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01-21-2015, 11:34 AM
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Thank you! I'm still confused by it. Just glad I'm not the only one.
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01-21-2015, 11:58 AM
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Matt556...Sometimes S&W made an error during manufacturing and either did not notice it during the inspection process, or didn't think it mattered and shipped the revolver out. It is similar to a Model 57 being stamped Model 29 in the yoke cut or vice versa. I have had several 44 Magnums where the S has been left off the stamping on the rear of the cylinder, or in the extractor rod shroud. While unusual, it is nothing to be confused about.
Bill
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01-21-2015, 03:43 PM
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Is it my imagination or are the front and back corners of the butt unusually rounded?
Bob
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01-21-2015, 04:33 PM
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On the separation between the K (missing on this gun) and the remainder of the serial number, I have a theory.
When S&W first put a letter prefix in the serial numbers, it was a V. That model almost universally had a lanyard swivel, so a space was needed for the hole and the letter was placed far to the side with a gap for the hole between it and the numeric portion of the number. That way no part of the serial number was disturbed by the swivel hole.
When the war was over and they decided to attach a letter prefix to all K frame revolvers (first SV, then S, then K for the target models, then C, again on the fixed sight guns) the space was retained, perhaps out of habit. Remember that the commercial SV and the earliest S guns had plugged swivel holes. The practice lasted into the 1950s but was gradually discontinued and the letter moved over to join the rest of the serial number.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it . . .
And I have no explanation for the missing K on this gun, except for a factory oversight, as others have suggested.
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01-21-2015, 06:04 PM
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S&W Rule #1 : NOTHING is absolute with S&W.... errors occurred
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01-22-2015, 01:22 PM
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Red9 the butt is completely flat, that is just the lighting. It does look quite curved though. To me this missing feature just adds to the character of the gun. I can't imagine there are that many that are missing the K in all three places
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01-22-2015, 05:31 PM
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K-38 S&W revolver
If the picture shown on the front page is the revolver you are talking about then you can't tell yet. The picture I saw with the rear adjustable sight and the HEAVY not pinned barrel makes me think it very well could be a K-38. But to make sure, the grips on it is the large oversized S&W factory grips. You need to remove them first then you can see the serial #. Don't go by the only one you see up by the cylinder. Remove the oversized wooden grips that cover the butt frame and you then can see the factory stamped serial #. Hope this helps.
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01-22-2015, 08:20 PM
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I have one that looks exactly like it with ser.number K 119763.Mine even has the same looking grips,great shooters.I gave mine to my dad back in the 70's and found it in my moms sock drawer right before xmas.She had forgot about having it.It is a 1951 made.
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01-22-2015, 08:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damudbug
If the picture shown on the front page is the revolver you are talking about then you can't tell yet. . . . Remove the oversized wooden grips that cover the butt frame and you then can see the factory stamped serial #.
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I believe most of us are looking at the picture in post #31 that clearly show the serial number on the butt with the target stocks removed.
Russ
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01-22-2015, 09:35 PM
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On my SN list I show several serial numbers on either side of yours as shipping in later 1951 (but having the K).
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01-23-2015, 01:26 AM
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When you first mentioned "unmarked," immediately I assumed you meant totally devoid of all markings of any kind. Such a K38 Combat Masterpiece was issued to US Navy Underwater Demolition Teams in the 1960s. No serial or assembly marks, no address lines, caliber, etc. In fact on the non-target wood grips the round metal logo medallions were replaced by plain metal disks. This was the era of the Vietnam war, before the Seal Teams were started. The revolver had been "sanitized" from the factory for UDT use in clandestine operations. While these revolvers were beautifully blued and great shooters, they were a silly choice.
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01-24-2015, 10:31 AM
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Knightwill, My grandfather was part of the UDT team. He went to Kings Point early in WWII and the navy sent him to UDT school just before Korea. Before we were officially involved in Vietnam he was sent over there as the pre-SEAL team. Could this firearm be missing the K because of that?
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