Boys, the LGS called me yesterday on the way to Tuesdays @ the range. Said they had a 1902 S&W that was immaculate I needed to come look at for $1275. Really wan't too interested. I didn't pay nowhere near that figure.

Stopped by today and the 1902 is actually (if ya'll agree I did my homework) a 1905 4th in about 97% condition by my estimate. All numbers match 338431 (butt, bbl. flat, cylinder, behind extractor star and grips have the old grease pencil like numbers on back of right panel. Grips are like brand new.

Anyway here comes the delima. No S&W emblem on either side plate (not uncommon on targets I believe). No "Made in America". Nothing at all on either side plate! Last date on roll mark top of bbl. is Dec. 29, 14. Left side of bbl. is marked Smith & Wesson with lazy ampersand and right side is 38 Smith & Wesson Ctg. with the doohickeys on each end of print. 6 inch bbl. Gold medallion grips.

Additionally, it is a square butt which I understand is somewhat of a rarity.

Anyone know approximate date of mfg., authenticity, value. In other words what do I have here in ya'lls learned opinions.
Would you letter it? Iwas just wondering if Goring may have given this to Adolph or some such. I really don't know if this revolver is common or a rarity.


Thanks in advance for your help.

Attached Images

	1905 4th change 338431 002.jpg (131.0 KB, 98 views)
	1905 4th change 338431 003.jpg (147.6 KB, 88 views)
	1905 4th change 338431 004.jpg (120.8 KB, 81 views)
	1905 4th change 338431 005.jpg (72.0 KB, 79 views)

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Bill
Dis B. Leaf

Few more pics of the other side, etc.

Attached Images

	1905 4th change 338431 006.jpg (107.9 KB, 46 views)
	1905 4th change 338431 009.jpg (88.4 KB, 40 views)
	1905 4th change 338431 008.jpg (133.4 KB, 48 views)
	1905 4th change 338431 007.jpg (89.0 KB, 52 views)

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Bill
Dis B. Leaf

Well Bill, you got into a really nice one there. What can I say?

I would not worry about authenticity. Some of the markings, or lack of them could be a little strange. I'll bet someone will have an explanation.

That revolver was shipped in 1920, about 2 years before MADE IN USA was introduced. Also, from late in WWI until around 1920, the S&W loge was not done on most all hand ejectors. The barrel stampings sound good, and those are called dingbats. The medallion diamond walnut stocks were always said to be 1910 to 1920, so everythings looks good except for one thing. That is the caliber stamping should read 38 S&W Special Ctg. ADDED - OK, I see what is stamped on the barrel and that is also correct. You had referenced a 38 S&W Ctg, which was not available in the K frames until WWII era.

The other thing that looks off to me is the extremely dull blue job. I have one 1905 HE from the early 1920s finish that looks like a satin/semi-gloss type finish, but probably original finish that someone else will know for sure. Nice looking M&P, but not worth the money they are asking. BTW, the 1920 calalogs, show the revolver was called Military & Police, square-butt, with no model year attached.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

it probably shipped about May 1920. And in the immediate postwar (WWI) period, they did not have the S&W logo stamped on the frame, nor "Made in U.S.A." It's a Military and Police (M&P) model, but some collectors might call it a Model of 1905, 4th Change. The grips may or may not be correct. And the asking price, even if all correct and in original condition is at least 2X too much. Note the turn line on the cylinder and what appear to be scratches and freckles. So much for the knowledge level of the guys at your local gun store.

"Additionally, it is a square butt which I understand is somewhat of a rarity"
Absolutely incorrect. There is a statement in the SCSW which could lead to that conclusion, but I think it has been widely misinterpreted.

I can't tell from the pictures, but does it have the smooth or serrated trigger?

Judging from the last sentence in the first paragraph and the well posed photos, you solved your dilemma by purchasing the gun. Very nice gun. congratulations.

The barrel actually does read 38 S&W Special Ctg.

Yes gents, I just typed it wordy. Trigger is smooth, hammer is crosshatched checkered. The blue is a tad different from the normal S&W bluing but I feel almost certain it is the original finish.

This old thing is just gorgeous and the fit incredible.
Dwalt, while the cylinder does show a turn line there is not a scratch or freckle on this gun. Since I bought it for less than half the amount they were asking and you feel it was priced 2X too much, I guess I made just an ok buy on this gun. I'll get em on the next one by jingos. I firmly believe the grips are original to the gun. I like it a lot.

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Bill
Dis B. Leaf

That type of bluing was "normal" for M&P's from that time frame. Nothing about it makes me suspect anything but an all original ca. 1920 M&P.

Mark

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S&W Forum Member #721

I have an M&P which is slightly newer (1921), but in comparable condition, and the blued finish on mine looks about the same as pictured. I earlier said the stocks may or may not be correct, as sometime in 1920, S&W changed from the "deep dish" gold medallions (which this revolver has) to no medallions typical of the 1920s decade. So it is possible that either style could be original and correct. Have you checked to see if there is a SN stamped or penciled on the inner surface of the right stock panel? Nonetheless, I would prefer having the earlier style.

Yes Sir,as mentioned in original post, penciled on back of right panel matching number.

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Bill
Dis B. Leaf

I don't know a lot about that gun, but for a 95 year old gun, it looks mighty nice to me.

Semper Fi!

Beeeutiful! Now for the range report! Nice one you got there just don't know how it could be any better.

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Hue 68 noli me tangere

My feeling is that the quality of finish and workmanship found on those M&Ps made between the wars is unexcelled. I have one from 1927 which must have led a very hard life (and shows it), yet it is still as tight and precise as the day it left the factory.

It is ,indeed, hard to find a seam in the revolvers of this era. Fit and finish unequaled IMHO.

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Bill
Dis B. Leaf