I thought he died in 1984, not 89?

A little over 12 years ago a fellow shooter passed and in his estate was a lower grade Parker double with fair provenance to being owned by Teddy Roosevelt. Absent the connection worth maybe $4-5000. I was willing to go 75, all I could borrow at time. Never got the chance to present the offer. Years later learned it traded hands for several times that amount.
I would have liked to owned one of Teddy's guns for a time.

Hi Gary,

In short I didn't notice the 52. I was mostly looking at the handguns. I didn't even know about Poulins till we got there, and someone told us they had some of Elmer's guns. We got there just about ten minutes before his stuff hit the floor. I just had time to look quick, register, and start bidding. If we hadn't stumbled into that I wouldn't have gotten anything.

I also thought the double rifles were a good deal, but I don't know anything about double rifles.

FYI, when I checked out the lady led me to understand it would be a while before they shipped the guns.

oops you are correct. 1984. That does make some of the lots suspicious especially the later rugers.

I remember looking at one that was built the year he died and thinking that it must just be the family collection. I found it odd that they sold as well as they did.

There will be some "Elmer Factor" to guns sold in this auction. Some of it will be real for guns he actually used and wrote about. Others will just be "once owned by Elmer Keith" with the only proof being the auction. It was a pretty big collection and some of the cases had Ted's name on them. Ted being pretty old now himself, it was still neat to see and handle them.

I thought I found a sleeper at the Poulin's auction. A rifle I have been looking for anyway. Elmer's Savage 99 in 358win. Put in an absentee bid for $2200 but my bid was cancelled since they found a crack in the stock just before it went up for sale. It sold for $1930.50 on the floor ... I woulda taken it crack and all.

Charlie

I agree whole heartedly. $70,000 is quite a bargain. That has to be the most well known of his revolvers and was the subject of an article in the April 1929 issue of the American Rifleman titled "The Last Word".

I can only imagine what he would have thought of the X frame revolvers. As future generations of shooters learn about Elmer Keith, these firearms will be precious items indeed. There were good reasons he was awarded the first Outstanding American Handgunner Award.

Congatulations to all the successful bidders.

Charlie, why would they cancel your bid without checking to see if you would still be interested in the gun?

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Miss My Buddy crsides!!

How many times we hear buy the gun and not the story. This is one of those cases where the story far exceded the gun...

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James Redfield
LM #497

That's just so not ok. Which lot was this?

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~ From the Land of Lobstah ~

Actually, they did call, but I was out of reach in the mtns. She said she could not sell it to someone without notifying them first that it was cracked, and the auction has to run its course. Pitfall of absentee bids. Lot number on Poulin's auction was 3287.

I think they did what they could. Just hate it happened.

I consoled myself with a nice Ruger 77R tang safety in 358 Win at the gun show today. Maybe I'll have " Elmer " carved into the stock.

Charlie

Trust me...you did not 'miss the boat'. Let's say you hold onto that gun for a generation or so, maybe 30 years. Thirty years from now, the primary buyers will be folks who were born around or after the time Elmer Keith died, if there are even many of those folks buying at all. (Other threads have addressed this--with the decrease in hunting, the increase in urbanization, the anti-gun movement, the interest in Glocks and AR-15's, the potential future customer base could be far less. Go to a gun show and you can often count the folks without grey hair on one hand.) I think, if a firearm was owned by someone like Billy the Kid, Jesse James, Wyatt Earp, etc., it will always bring a substantial premium; however, Elmer Keith is nowhere as legendary as figures from the old west. By 2040 or 2050, I would guess the Elmer Keith premium might be worth a few hundred dollars at best...more a conversation piece than anything else!

FWIW...I found this listing of realized prices of some of the EK items:

THE KEITH SIXGUNS ARE SOLD! | Single-Actions

I do see a few bargains in there. The 1877 Sharps Long Range rifle I coveted went for $23,000...not a bargain!

I don't have a strong opinion on this and it will be interesting to see how it works out. A lot of his books seem to be in print again. The fact that he helped develop the 357, 41 and 44 magnum cartridges seems to be historically significant. Also, I think there's always interest in well made guns. Tupperware guns don't have souls. I can't imagine a Glock 19 that Massad Ayoob owned bringing $10k at an auction in 50 years.

I went to the preview and was honored to take my brother in law, who was a huge Elmer Keith fan. I had to force him to handle Elmer's 44 carry gun but, he was happy he did!
After you open the picture, click on it and it will not be upside down
Jim Corbbet's double rifle and the famous #5

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NRA Life Member
AF&AM #129

As someone who was 3 years old when Elmer Keith died I can tell you that this is just wrong. In fact I think there's more interest in guys like Elmer Keith and Ed McGivern then in Billy the Kid and Wyatt Earp among my peers. We didn't grow up on cowboy movies after all.

All it takes is the slightest nudge to get them into fine old revolvers. Handing them a really good old S&W of any stripe invariably results in them asking at some point down the road: how can I get one of those.

"Triple Lock" is held in far more reverence then "Peacemaker" because of Elmer. Sixguns is a far more widely read book then you may be aware of.

If any market collapses it will be the old antique lever guns and colts. The collector community there has driven the prices up to levels no young person can afford, and they don't need to anyway because there are many fine and cheap copies available. Which is good because most of the nice stuff is hidden away from sight. Then there's the matter that none of us grew up on cowboy shows and find the wild west interesting by and large, but not interesting enough to spend 3x on a beat up SAA when we could buy a brand new Italian one that gives us pretty much everything that old one would.

Smith & Wessons are much much more accessible, and the copies of them are pretty awful given how much hand fitting went into making them right. There are still a ton of great model 10s and M&Ps out there, the perfect gateway drug to old S&Ws. It may take a bit of time for these young guys to catch onto the glorious nature of old revolvers, but they are.

I exhausted my life savings and then some to own one of Elmer's guns. I firmly believe that Elmer will continue to be of interest to this next generation of shooters, and if that doesn't translate into dollars, I don't much care. The history attached to what I bought fascinates me and whenever the gun arrives I'll treasure it like few others.


I think there is a better question you guys hung up on young folk and plastic guns should be pondering:

This next generation will have plenty of interest in these old guns and guys like Keith, McGivern, Jordan, Askins, etc. What they won't have the way we are going is a middle class. As more and more power is consolidated federally and it continues to choke the life out of a middle class that can't afford to either campaign contributions while simultaneously being unable to have their votes purchased with entitlements, what's going to happen to that vibrant middle class gun collecting community?

That's the real generational issue to ponder in my opinion.

"As someone who was 3 years old when Elmer Keith was born I can tell you that this is just wrong."

Dadgum, you're OLD. Elmer was born in 1899, so that makes you what, 118-119?

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Died.

I need to go get some coffee.

Also, I really hope they send this to me soon so I can shoot it.

It's bit ironic that after your comments above you ended up buying an automatic from Elmer's collection.

Looks like a nice piece. Dates to around 1914-15 from the SN. Interesting that he basically converted it to 1911A1 specs. I have one just a bit higher that I regularly shoot. Take it easy on that old guy with soft loads.

As far as the whole generational shift in collecting tastes goes, take a look at the market for restored Model A and T Fords. The guys who restored them in the 50s-70s are dying off and today you can buy one for 50 cents on the dollar or less than what it would cost just for the restoration. The car is basically free.

Ironic, yes, but I think this particular gun is special and very "Keithy" (to coin a term) for other reasons.

When I looked at that auction I felt out of the dozen or so guns that really seemed to be both guns I would love to own and a real example of Elmer Keith's personality and character, there were only two I had a prayer of affording. The Poulin auction Triple Lock with the "Elmer" Kearsarge stocks, and this 1911.

After I lost the Triple Lock I had a very poorly set up flight that was supposed to leave at 12:40pm and arrive around 6:30pm. My travel agent reversed AM and PM, so I had to get on a plane in the middle of the night and arrive early in the morning.

Word of advice; much like posting in the morning before you have had your coffee, don't bid on an auction when you have been awake for 27 hours. Auction madness, losing the prior gun, and a general inability to do arithmetic turned into me winning that gun, and I have no regrets. Just a large credit card bill to contend with

For one, I love the fact that it's been worked over by King. In fact that's what mostly attracted me to it, my unnatural lust for all things that came out of D.W. King's workshop. All of my Colts are King modified and I have no intention of stopping buying them (even though I prefer S&Ws). For another, this particular gun was owned by Bill Strong, who it seems was quite the mentor and friend to Elmer Keith when he was young. The story of his death and Keith's insistence that it was a conspiratorial murder makes the relationship all that more interesting. Keith mentioning that Bill used the gun in WW1 in France, and the gun being a Springfield provided by the NRA adds some additional interest.

The more I read about Elmer Keith's relationship to Bill Strong and his continued relationship with Mrs. Strong (selling Bill's guns for her when he could get a good price for example) the more I suspect that this gun may have had some emotional attachment for him. I hope to be able to speak to Ted regarding it at some point in the future, maybe find out if my suspicion is correct there.

Did I overpay for it? Probably. I don't rightly care though, I'll work hard and replace the money. Owning one of Elmer's guns was (I think) a now or never, once in a life time kind of thing. My only real regret is that I couldn't scrape up enough money to be a contender on that pair of Triple Locks or the Zero .357 magnum.

If anyone is interested I'll get pictures and do a long post with everything I can find out about this 1911 over in the other firearms section of the forum. I think you might find that while this gun wasn't the most obviously iconic choice out of his collection, it's still deeply interesting on many levels.

Congrats on the two EK guns you won. It's in the history books now but Elmer Keith will live on for ever in our hearts. But overtime we shoot a caliber or gun he helped develop we better look up once and thank him.
We might not own one of Elmers personal guns but we're enjoying the same exact models and calibers. RIP ELMER KEITH.

Very true. My children are being squeezed....cannot imagine what it will be like for any grandchildren I may have.

Think about there too cheap to dig deep to pay even the average prices on the older s&w guns and wine about yet with EK guns it's worth it? Want some cheese with that wine you know who you are.

Not to rain on your parade, but...

The pre-auction estimate for this was $1,000 to $1,500. It went for, including buyer's premium, for $14,750. Either the estimate was WAY off or the firearm was wanted by at least one too many bidders.

I am a perpetual cheapskate and I could see me going over the buyer's premium a bit if I wanted something enough or if the estimate was off by a significant amount. However, it seems difficult for me to believe it was worth 10 or 15 times the pre-auction estimate?????

Every gun in the auction went for more then the pre-auction estimate, most by a significant amount. They were essentially meaningless. Which is why you auction stuff that is unique off anyway, that's how a value is established on something that has nothing comparable.

So you aren't raining on my parade at all, estimates are just a guess, in this cause the auction house guesses were very very wrong. I'm truly happy for the family, and glad to know the money is going to good people.

I don't know...but I am nearly convinced that Elmer Keith stuff is, as another poster stated, like Model A Fords. They were $30 to $50,000 or more a generation ago, now difficult to move one for over $15,000. 1960's muscle cars had been strong and I have heard they are starting to soften. I hope, for your sake, I am wrong, but I just don't see that particular firearm as keeping up with inflation...

How much of a premium would a firearm owned by Walter Winans or Philip Sharpe bring these days? Ever heard of those folks? Maybe a few hundred dollars, but that is it. Elmer Keith...same thing in 50 years or so.

Very nice 1911, It was one of a handful of handguns on which I had intended to bid. There was an Elmer Keith article in American Rifleman in the late 20s about the shooting of Bill Strong. I'll see if I can dig up a date for you.

guns owned by Walter and Phil have brought plenty more than a $150 premium and will in the future when they change hands again.....


the pre auction estimates were, as usual, a joke....

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Kris
OGCA, NRA LM

I dont think anyone over paid on anything Ive seen from this auction.I guess we'll have to check back in 10 years

Entirely possible, good thing I didn't buy the gun as an investment, so if that does happen I won't care. I'll still have an awesome 1911 to take shooting at the range.

I would also add that the car analogy doesn't really hold up very well given that cars require maintenance that a gun does not. Plus, if you look at the market for cars documented to be owned by famous people that market is still going very strong.

I would guess the pre-auction estimates were based on the intrinsic value of the guns without any Elmer provenance factored in.

That's a great gun and I'm happy for you. You bought the gun because of the passion and interest that you have in the history of firearms and the icons like Elmer Keith that surrounded it. Many other folks share that same passion and it is you and those people that will keep the history alive way into the future. God bless you, God bless America, and God bless Elmer!!!!

Chad Gripp

I think that Elmer's guns brought the prices that they did because there is far more interest in him than most of the other other older gun writers. I also think that interest will be there for a good many years. Cabelas built an Elmer Keith museum in their Boise store 30 years after Elmer died and wouldn't have done so if there was no perceived interest. My guess is that many of these guns will go for more money the next time they sell.

Not to threadjack, but....

From "Sixguns" by Keith, Chapter V (Long Range Shooting), page 109:

"....We remember during the war the foreman of the Small Arms Shop at The Ogden Arsenal, and some of his best armorers, made the statement they would not be afraid to let me shoot at them all day at 100 yards with a .45 auto. We repaired to the range and behind the 200 yard target was a small snow drift not a fourth the size of the average man. By dropping down to the old back position, and holding the front sight far up above the notch in the rear sight of my .45 auto Colt, I perched the snow drift atop the front sight and fired. First shot was short, but a little more elevation of front sight until I could see a bit of the slide between sights did the trick and I pounded the rest of that clip into the snow drift, using this very steady position with right arm rested along the side of my drawn up right leg while I supported my head in a steady position with left hand. They had their eyes opened." [Emphasis added.]

Wonder if that's the same gun. Probably no way to know but... if it were mine, I'd assume that it is.

By the way, the position he describes sounds a lot like the Creedmoor position used by metallic silhouette shooters. I was heavily into IHMSA silhouettes back in the '80s and just for fun, used my Colt Gold Cup .45ACP a couple of times. I could just about spot for myself on the 200 meter rams, the bullets took so long to get there! But when I hit them they went over.

For what it's worth, I recall that I used about the same sight picture as Keith described above rather than trying to adjust the rear sight for that much elevation. A Gold Cup's Patridge sight is about the same height as on the Keith 1911 shown, so the elevation would be similar. With the tiny front sight on a GI 1911, the front sight would have to be comparatively way up in the air with a lot of the slide visible above the rear sight, not just the small amount that Keith describes, and I remember. To my mind that lends weight to the possibility that he might've used this gun for that demonstration.

Googling for Elmer Keith creedmoor brings up this picture:




Not quite the position I used to use - I was more flat on my back and had my left hand under my head like this (not a picture of me). It's an incredibly stable position once you're accustomed to it.



Note that in the position that Keith is shown using, the revolver cylinder gap is in front of his knee. The silhouette shooter in the second picture is using a blast shield to protect his leg from the gases escaping from the cylinder gap. I had to add an aluminum plate in my blast shield when I started using the Ruger SRM .357 Maximum - just leather wasn't enough any more!

Anyway, with a 1911 there's no cylinder gap to worry about so Keith might've used the same position as the silhouette shooter. You just have to make certain that your leg is drawn up enough that the muzzle is past your shin, as I did when shooting my Gold Cup this way! Plus he does mention using his left hand to support his head, which he is not doing in the picture above with the revolver.

You got a very neat 45 Auto formerly owned by one of the greats. What's not to like. As you said you can replace the money by working, but how many more 45 Gov'ts owned by Elmer Keith are available. Congratulations on your purchase, I am envious. All my best, Joe.

For those of you that bid and did not win any of Elmers guns, I was surfing the Cabela's Gun Library the other day and there are several Elmer Keith Commeratives for sale. Never owned by Elmer but I think it has his name on it somewhere. Just sayin...

And they are a whole lot cheaper...

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James Redfield
LM #497

I just wanted to say that I bought Elmer's 52 Winchester because it is unique,one of a kind like so many of his guns. Elmer use to shoot matches with it and also the occasional turkey,although he used his Sharps mostly for that when on his ranch. Ted his son also shot this 52 in a match.

This gun has a original inch and one quarter Winchester factory straight taper barrel. I have only heard of one other rifle with that barrel and it was taken off and discarded.

My point is Keith knew guns and how they should be designed and built at the highest level. Sure he owned a few factory guns,but the guns that he evisioned by his experiences and intellect are worth having. They are historical and always will be. Only the ignorant Roob will say otherwise. Congrats to all those who were lucky enough to bid successfully on a piece of firearms history.

Post # 37 is the best one here! Nailed It.

Remember when they sold off Skeeter Skelton's guns?
I pored over the listings for weeks and could not work up the nerve to make an offer... or on which.

The thing about Keiths guns, or John Waynes or anyone else, 50 yrs from now, who cares? Its you that wants it, not your grandchildren

Has this been posted here yet? Here's what Elmer Keith's guns sold for at auction. A little more than they expected...
James D. Julia, Inc. -

Just shy of $2 million. I saw an estimate of something like $2.3 mil beforehand. Some of the guns were a "bargain" considering one of a kind status and "line of ownership." Joe

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Wisdom chases me; I'm faster

WOW...he sure owned a LOT of Dangerous Game Double Rifles.

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NULLI SECUNDUS

Were these the guns that were on display somewhere out west?

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I'm 67. I don't do timeouts.

I think they were at an Idaho Cabela's. I read somewhere that they didn't get as much interest as expected. And younger people didn't care about some old dead guy's cowboy guns. "Let's go look at the Glocks now."

I wonder if he owned any rifles that wouldn't knock me on my can?

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Regards, Ron
USASA 1965/69

I dropped out on the Corbett double rifle at $225,000

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Forum consigliere

Lots of $$$ crossed the table that day. I'm surprised, that some of the double rifles did not sell for more $$ than they did. Oh well all the items were/are out of my price range.

Whatever happened to "buy the gun; not the story"?

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Why, I aughta.....