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Old 03-28-2015, 08:39 PM
Jeff 506327 Jeff 506327 is offline
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Greetings,
I really love S&W and Colt revolvers made from about the end of the 19th century to about 1945. Today at a gun show in PA I picked up the S&W .38 spl. in the attached photo. The tag on the gun said "Model 1905 4th Change." The Seller seemed very honest and told me it was pre WW2. Can anyone tell me if it was at least made prior to 1945? Serial Number starts with S 952XXX. Any information would be of interest.
I'm here for the Smith, but the other gun in the pic I've had for a while and I was told was an 1910 era Colt Police Positive likely cut down prior to the introduction of the Detective Special and originally had bakelite grips S/N 278XX
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Old 03-28-2015, 08:50 PM
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Unfortunately the S&W is post WWII manufacture. Very few of these post war transitional M&Ps shipped in 1945, so it probably shipped after that. The "S" prefix in the SN denotes the updated (at that time) hammer block safety. A pre war 1905 4th change does not have the revised hammer block safety, and therefor does not have the "S" prefix to the SN. We call this M&P that you bought a "post war transitional" version because while it is post war, it has the S prefix, the older long action, one line address, etc. These post war trans M&Ps were made in the late 1940s only and are uncommon, esp as a snubnose. Also, the grips are incorrect, they are for a much earlier M&P, approx. 1912 to 1920 production.
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Old 03-28-2015, 09:24 PM
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Jim's answer is correct, except that a pre war Model 1905, 4th change, does have a safety hammer block, of the 2nd hammer block style. Post war S series serial numbers have the third style hammer block, designed during WW2 to replace the 2nd style, after a US Navy sailor dropped his loaded WW2 Victory Model on the deck of a ship and it discharged, fatally wounding him, because he had not cleaned the gun and it was full of cosomoline grease that jammed the hammer block from working correctly. Redesigned Victory Models with the third ( new ) hammer block were stamped with an "S" to signify the revision. Ed.
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Old 03-28-2015, 09:44 PM
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At least it came with nice Pre War Stocks!
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Old 03-28-2015, 10:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff 506327 View Post
Can anyone tell me if it was at least made prior to 1945? Serial Number starts with S 952XXX. Any information would be of interest.
As others have said, this is not a pre-1945 revolver. Yours most likely shipped from the factory in November, 1947. It is near the end of the S prefix revolvers; manufacture stopped in about the first quarter of 1948, at serial number S999999.

I have located several 2" examples in the S948xxx range and more in the S953xxx - S954xxx ranges. All of those so far reported had the square butt. Yours is round. Cool!
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Old 03-28-2015, 10:35 PM
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Does anyone have a photo of an honest-to-gosh pre-war 1905 M&P snubby? I'd just like to see how visually different it would be from the one I just purchased. Thanks!
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Old 03-28-2015, 10:40 PM
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If no one has said it yet...welcome to the Smith & Wesson Forum.
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Old 03-28-2015, 10:44 PM
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Welcome to the forum. Even if your gun is not a prewar snubnose, it is still a very desirable gun. It does have the improved postwar hammer safety block, but it also has the prewar long action that was retired in early 1948. That's why it and others like it but with longer barrels are sometimes called transitional models.

Those stocks in that condition are valuable in their own right. You can probably find some 1946-1948 round butt stocks that would fit your gun and make it a little more "chronologically consistent." The stocks on it now are, as noted, about a century old and in very nice shape. You may find a penciled serial number on the inside surface of the right cheek piece (as S&W referred to the stock panels). Let us know what it is and we can give you some basic info about the gun they were originally installed on.

Excellent score. I like the Colt, too.
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Old 03-28-2015, 10:50 PM
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I'm planning to retire the current grips or at least change them out for shooting. They are nice, checkering is still very crisp. The ones on the Colt I don't leave on for shooting either.
I'm also a WW2 reenactor hence my desire for firearms made on or before 1945.
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Old 03-28-2015, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Jeff 506327 View Post
I'm also a WW2 reenactor hence my desire for firearms made on or before 1945.
For visual purposes, there would be no difference between the revolver you just purchased and a pre-WWII era snubby. The significant change is internal. The S prefix would be about the only visual clue. The stocks would, of course, also be different.

However, the appearance of a 2" example during the war would be rare. US Victory models had 4" barrels and those made for the Brits for the most part had 5" barrels.
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Old 03-28-2015, 10:57 PM
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Thanks all!
Regards,
Jeff
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Old 03-28-2015, 10:58 PM
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Does anyone have a photo of an honest-to-gosh pre-war 1905 M&P snubby? I'd just like to see how visually different it would be from the one I just purchased. Thanks!
There are some in this thread.

Classic M&P Snubnose Picture Thread

In general, the prewar snubs are essentially identical to the one you bought. The prewar guns will have six-digit serial numbers without a letter prefix; those made before 1937 will have a small logo on the left side rather than a large logo on the side plate. In 1937 and later, you should usually see a large logo on the side plate, a practice which continued after the war. Prewar guns will have a one-line MADE IN U.S.A. rollmark on the frame in front of the side plate. This continues until early 1948; after April of that year S&Ws were manufactured with a four-line address block that included the phrase MARCAS REGISTRADAS for legal reasons.

I think the shape of the postwar thumb release is a little different from the prewar shape by the end of the 1940s, but in the immediate postwar years the company was using up parts stockpiled from wartime production.
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Old 03-28-2015, 11:02 PM
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Thanks Jack, I was just wondering it there would have been any quick visual indicators (other than knowledge of serial numbers) that would have given it away a post war. At $350 I think I did OK, the action is like butter!
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Old 03-28-2015, 11:17 PM
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At $350 you are so far ahead of the game it isn't funny. Quick! Go buy something else while your luck still holds!
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Old 03-28-2015, 11:24 PM
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"You may find a penciled serial number on the inside surface of the right cheek piece (as S&W referred to the stock panels). Let us know what it is and we can give you some basic info about the gun they were originally installed on."

David,
Grip numbers very difficult to read. Three digits 348 or 848, best guess.
Jeff
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Old 03-28-2015, 11:34 PM
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"I was just wondering it there would have been any quick visual indicators (other than knowledge of serial numbers) that would have given it away a post war."

You can see part of the 1945 improved drop safety mechanism if you look into the hammer well. There have been pictures here of postwar M&P RB snubbies with original black hard rubber stocks. I have yet to personally see one of them. I think that would be the "coolest" option for yours. By the way, the "Model of 1905" terminology was dropped by S&W prior to WWI, when they started calling them M&Ps (round butt and square butt), but its use has continued among some collectors to describe M&Ps made until the Victory series started in 1942. By any criteria, yours is an M&P, not a Model of 1905.

I have on my list quite a few S-series M&Ps having nearby SNs on both sides, all of which shipped in the October-November 1947 period. But a factory letter would be necessary if you need a more exact shipping date. $350 is a super price.

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Old 03-28-2015, 11:47 PM
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Quote:
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Grip numbers very difficult to read. Three digits 348 or 848, best guess.
Jeff
It might be 348xxx, since 848xxx would be too high for that style stocks. But even 348xxx would seem to be too high. 1920 would be about 320xxx, and that is when the recessed medallions fell out of usage.
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Old 03-28-2015, 11:51 PM
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The wood diamond checkered "Deep Dish" gold medallion stocks were current during the roughly 1911-1920 period. Afterward, the use of a medallion was dropped. And as Jack said, about the latest expected use would have been around SN 320xxx.
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Old 03-29-2015, 12:00 AM
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Don't forget the .32-20 guns had their own serial number sequence and that their stocks would fit the .38 HEs with no problem. It's not clear to me whether the three reported legible digits would come at the beginning or the end of the penciled number.

Jeff, sometimes rocking the panel back and forth under a bright light will create reflection highlights on the graphite that will paint an image of a barely legible number on your retina.
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Old 03-29-2015, 12:05 AM
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Quote:
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Don't forget the .32-20 guns had their own serial number sequence and that their stocks would fit the .38 HEs with no problem.
David raises a very good point here. If the numbers given (348 and 848) are at the beginning and there are only 5 digits, instead of 6, then these stocks could have come on a .32-20 HE instead of a .38.

However, in that case 348xx would be too low a number for the gun to have had that style stocks. But 848xx could certainly be in the correct range, but barely. Keep in mind that .32-20 HE number 81287 was assembled in September, 1919. So, while it is possible, it seems unlikely that these came from a .32 Winchester Model.
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Old 03-29-2015, 01:24 AM
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Your Colt is a Police Positive Special, not a Police Positive, which had a shorter frame and used shorter cartridges. Is this .38 Special? Some were made in .32-20.

It may well be cut-down or else someone added a post-1958 extractor rod. Early Detective Specials had sq. butts, but a short extractor rod.

I urge you to buy some basic gun books, and one of the best to begin with is the late Geoffrey Boothroyd's, The Handgun. It usually won't cost a lot on Amazon, but it's one of the absolute best basic handgun books to about 1970, when it was published. The copious illustrations show many Colt and S&W products through the years.
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Old 03-29-2015, 10:22 AM
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"Police Positive Special"

The Colt Police Positive Special was chambered in .32-20 and .38 Special, and a few Post-WWII ones were chambered in .32 Colt New Police (.32 S&W Long). The Detective Special (starting in 1926) is the short-barreled version of the Police Positive Special, and the Detective Special, in addition to the .38 Special, was also chambered in later years in the .32 Colt New Police (.32 S&W Long) and the .38 S&W. I do not believe there were ever any Detective Specials chambered in .32-20, but a cut-down PPS could have been.
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Old 03-31-2015, 02:11 PM
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A little late to this thread but the main visual difference between the pre and post war was the high polish of the pre war guns. Most were round butt with black hard rubber grips with some having the small logo on the left side. My revolver is the earliest known shipped so it might be the grand daddy of all hand ejector snubbies. It was shipped on November 29th 1933 to Mcdonald & Linforth in San Francisco.Serial #625400.
Bill
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Old 03-31-2015, 08:30 PM
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That one is a peach!
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Old 03-31-2015, 08:45 PM
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One special revolver, appreciate it Sir!
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Old 02-12-2017, 09:52 PM
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Wow that 1933 snubby is fantastic! The grips look the same as the ones on a 1899 Hand Ejector I just picked up.
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Old 04-19-2017, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DCWilson View Post
Welcome to the forum. Even if your gun is not a prewar snubnose, it is still a very desirable gun. It does have the improved postwar hammer safety block, but it also has the prewar long action that was retired in early 1948. That's why it and others like it but with longer barrels are sometimes called transitional models.

Those stocks in that condition are valuable in their own right. You can probably find some 1946-1948 round butt stocks that would fit your gun and make it a little more "chronologically consistent." The stocks on it now are, as noted, about a century old and in very nice shape. You may find a penciled serial number on the inside surface of the right cheek piece (as S&W referred to the stock panels). Let us know what it is and we can give you some basic info about the gun they were originally installed on.

Excellent score. I like the Colt, too.
Update: The stocks purchased with the gun have been removed for safe keeping and replaced with a set of nice reproduction grips. I saw another gold medallion set like mine on ebay going for $250. When the grips alone are going for a nice down payment on another gun, it's time to retire them for safe keeping!
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