I am looking at this M 13. I understand there are a lot of fakes of these revolvers. I would like to post a few pictures and see what you think. The cylinder is aluminum the frame takes a magnet.
Also no "aircrewman" above the .38 Sp CTG.
I am thinking it is not original. Any help? I have attached photos.

Attached Images

	M 13 -2.JPG (84.0 KB, 471 views)
	M 13.jpg (68.2 KB, 463 views)
	M 13 -3.JPG (103.3 KB, 445 views)
	M 13 -4.JPG (90.4 KB, 491 views)
	M 13 -5.JPG (92.2 KB, 467 views)

Click on the Search under the word "Forum"at the top of the page and search Aircrewman under the "Google" search. You'll have reading for days.

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Get off my lawn!

I can't answer your question, but welcome to the best gun forum I've found.

One of the experts will probably chime in very shortly.

I trust that if the cylinder is aluminum you won't plan to shoot it. I wouldn't, though some people concoct beetle-burp loads to shoot in them.

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Oh well, what the hell.

What is the SN? I think the SN range for the M13 is fairly well established, and someone can probably tell you that.

Welcome! The top strap and rear grip strap rollmarks appear original. The barrel rollmark varied throughout the production run and it could be original, or an armorer's replacement.

Do you see the same serial number on the bottom of the grip frame, rear cylinder face and barrel flat (near the ejector rod), and on the inside right stock panel? If so this lowers the chances it is a fake or put-together parts gun, but not to zero. If you are able to post the full SN, it may show up in a Forum member's database as a real M13. A factory letter (or personally buying it from the USAF veteran who carried it, I suppose ) would be the only way to be sure:

Firearm History Request - Smith & Wesson

Hope this is helpful.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

So there are variations without the Aircrew designation above the .38 Sp CTG on the right side of the barrel?

Thanks for the info and advice. I have decided to pass on it until the owner can give me more proof. He plans to send the serial number to S&W.

Getting a factory letter would be the only irrefutable proof as to if it is the real McCoy or not. So if he is willing to do that, I'd wait for a few months before parting with any coins. It looks legit to me, but what do I know?

Post the serial number and there's a good chance I can tell you if it could be original. From what little i can see from the photos, I don't see anything that indicates it is not an original Aircrewman revolver. Are you sure the frame is steel and not alloy? Many of this model do not have the "Aircrewman" stamp on the barrel. Ed.

Forgive this 'thread-surrection", but I thought my question worthwhile. IF the FRAME is steel "takes a magnet", then doesn't this indicate a fake? I thought these Aircrewman guns were alloy in both cylinder AND FRAME. ?

Last picture makes it look like the barrel pin has been messed with .

Eddie

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Grumpy Old Man With a Gun

I bought mine from the pilot who carried it, so mine is 100% real. After he took it home he carried it for years in a small leather holster, loaded. It is 85% on frame finish because of that. He wanted it to go to an AF guy and after I came back from Iraq I traded him for a new carry gun.

I spent the money and had it lettered as well. The serial number range is concurrent with commercially produced guns of the era. A letter will give you definite proof. I cannot see a punch mark from the pictures, but it looks right with one exception. The rear grip strap wear does not seem to match the rest of the gun.

Good question, but we will never know. The OP has not visited this site since the day after this thread started two and a half years ago, and his two posts in this thread are the only ones he ever submitted to the forum. The gun was offered to him by a seller, and he declined.

The photos in this thread may help identify this specimen if it ever shows up again, but that seems to be our only hope of learning more.

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David Wilson

No, because the steel internal parts are close enough to the exterior to attract a magnet.

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Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

A subtle but important point (I think): a couple of posters mention a letter as the only way to get "definite" or "irrefutable" proof of authenticity. Jinks letters only authenticate a serial number, not the gun. Most of the "fake" Aircrewman revolvers will letter because the fakes are usually made from "real" parts from scrap revolvers.

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Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

If they are made from real parts of scrapped revolvers, are they fake?? The only specific parts critical to authenticity are the frame and cylinder. All original era internal parts, including the barrel can be found on the market, so is the gun still fake or is is simply restored/repaired back to original configuration?

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Gary
SWCA 2515

I put "fake" in quotes since there is no accepted definition of exactly what that means. However, most collectors value originality and a gun put together form mismatched parts and/or a re-welded frame probably qualifies as "fake," IMHO.

BTW, more than just the frame and cylinder are numbered. A parts gun is never original.

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Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

I THOUGHT some fakes had been made from OTHER Pre Mod 12s with aluminum cylinders by welding up the serial numbers on all parts and then stamping with a serial number obtained from a pair of real AC grips which were, of course, put on the gun. In some cases, barrels were salvaged from de-milled real guns. Of course, all other markings would be added and the parts refinished.

Then, if the gun is lettered, it comes back as real because a correct serial number is on it.

It was my understanding that the West Coast faker (forget his name) was capable of accomplishing this.
Am I wrong about this?

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Regards,
Lee Jarrett

Lee,

You are correct but the person you refer to was only the highest profile guy doing this sort of thing. There were/are others.

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Kevin Williams SWCA1649 HF208

The "West Coast Faker" did not really do a very good job of trying to fake, and fool a buyer of any Aircrewman revolvers, that I am aware of. He would take a pre-Model 37, leave the serial number intact for a Pre Model 37, and engrave the back strap with a property of the " US Air Force" stamp marking, and call it a Baby Aircrewman, and offer it at about 1/3 what a real one is worth. If that fools you, you shouldn't be collecting Aircrew guns! Ed.

That is my problem as well, no accepted definition. Yes, there are many locations where one can find serial numbers on various parts, but if there is no attempt to alter or eliminate those numbers, you simply have a non-matching gun. The issue is whether it is a fake or not? Someone restoring a classic auto, motorcycle, painting, furniture, etc. seem to not be judged harshly, unlike people who restore firearms. Sure they should be sold with full disclosure of condition and restoration, but the good news is that someone is saving pieces of history. It appears that the tactics used by this "west coast" guy would definitely fall squarely into the FAKE category because he is illegally changing serial numbers and not fully disclosing what was done to the guns.

Would I buy a restored Aircrewman revolver? Maybe . . .

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Gary
SWCA 2515

I'm not quite sure why I even looked at this thread, other than the fact I've been, shall we say irritated by two fakes in my time---fakes within my chosen field of endeavor, not Aircrewman.

That said, I'd like to propose a special award for artistry in words---by whatever other terminology we might choose. The first such award should go to "shouldazagged" for "beetle-burp loads". That is absolutely priceless! I'm still laughing!!

Ralph Tremaine

Fakery, chicanery, altering, misrepresenting and straight out lying is all too prevalent and always has been. However, when a person of authority like a professional person, licensed agents, brokers, dealers, (worse of all used car dealers) and reputable collectors, intentionally misrepresent or fabricate a story, that is ILLEGAL.

Something that sticks in my mind from Business Law 101 is "intentional non-disclosure" which is certainly a lie ... and ... illegal.

A consumer or client taking the word and / or advice of someone in an officiating or legal capacity of business (especially professionals, licensed agents, brokers, dealers, etc.) has a detrimental reliance that what has been represented to him as fact, whether verbal (harder to prove), shown, advised in the value, authenticity, accuracy of description be FACTUALLY accurate.

This is why major auction houses usually will not take items of questionable background or authenticity and, at times, pull from the auction prior to auction day if someone lodges a valid concern to the contrary.

The seller must also disclose any "known" inaccuracies or inconsistencies. If the seller does not factually represent an item, service, investment, to be purchased ... that seller is guilty of an active non-disclosure, In short, a crime.

NOW, is it a fake ? If it is NOT what it appears to be and represented to be, it "IS" a fake, even if reconstructed from and / or with original parts.

The definition of "restoration" also leaves much in question. The word "restoration" is thrown about too carelessly at times. Being a master mechanic, restorationist of antique and classic automobiles, I always drew a HARD line ... in writing ... on what is and what is NOT a "restoration", having to explain in exacting detail to a client who solicited my services. I would vehemently state that a full, classic, refinish is NOT a restoration. A restoration of an automobile, to me, is body off chassis with every component and part reworked and restored ... period. Anything else is just a partial repair or service related repair to maintain serviceability and value.

With restorations is then the reputation of the craftsman, artist and / or restoration facility, that becomes of value. e.g. Dave Chicoine and Charles Duffy were genuine craftsman / artists. Also, any S&W that had been factory refurbished or repaired is without question, a genuine article, however, be wary of a second finish or repair over an older factory refurbish. You must be wise enough to distinguish the difference.

That "other" guy you refer to, may be one of two, I surmise. One was the guy who mainly faked Cavalry Model U.S. Colt SAAs, almost any other scarce Colt SAA and other Colts but also did much of other items, too.

The next "other" guy, who had been caught stamping certain markings on a pair of Victories previously owned by another member ... who also adds a tall tale to almost everything he offers, including the coincidence of a 9/11/1911 ship date ( or some such year of a 9/11 ship date) as a clairvoyant, Nostradamesque, reference to increase value by relating it to 9/11/2001 attack on the World Trade Center.

Adding enhancing markings, whether it be proof marks, inspectors' markings, Wells fargo markings, etc .. while the item it began with was genuine, the resulting item IS a FAKE ! Not saying these specific FAKES are worthless. Many of this specific type of fakes still has value for what it was BEFORE the fakery, less a decrease in value for the "enhancements" which are proven to detract from the value. e.g. an added stamp of Wells fargo to a Schofield, when proven fake, decreases the value of what it was PRIOR to the bogus, added-on, stamping.

A few months back i was surprised to see a USAF M13, factory refinished at some time (I don't recall when) and advertised by a reliable dealer as just that ... a factory refinished USAF M13. HOWEVER, no where in the listing did that seller disclose that the frame number, the cylinder number and the barrel number, were all mis-matched, albeit if you really looked at the pictures and / or copied and enlarged ... you would see the numbers did not match.

Not standing on a soap box here but some things are just not right. The categories include:

A. Blue skies promotional advertising
B. Evasive advertising, including intentional non-disclosure
C. a long story or reference that is otherwise unsupported
D. a tall tale
E. flat out lies
F. shill bidding and / or running up the price of the auction price by seller and / or affiliates or contractors / services who provide these bidding services.

Of the more honest are ads with sharply focused, accurate, photos of items being sold as seen, as is, based on the accuracy of the photos and disclosure, as factually known by seller. This should be a FULL, factual, disclosure.

If it's someone I know or a fellow member, all is OK with me. I'll even take a personal check without hesitation. If it is someone I do not know, I will insist approval must be stated before taken from the FFL it shipped to.

The old timers still offer a 3 day approval, if not-fired and returned in same condition as sent ... if ... an honest discrepancy in item advertised and item received. Now, there are are some serial predatory buyers who prey on good, honest dealers. That's something else to watch for.

In summation, the most important is the word and reputation of both the seller and the buyer.

In old-school trading, a man's word is his bond. If word were do get out that a noted seller was anything less than 101% reputable from a reliable source it could ruin decades of hard honest work.

Even a world famous author got caught after many decades of chicanery about 10 year ago for faking one of the two, 1847 Walker Colts, personally owned and used by the namesake of the model, Captain Samuel Hamilton Walker. The Walker Colt being the single most expensive Colt C&B revolver of all time and the "Personal Walker Colts" of Captain Samuel Hamilton Walker near priceless. Also, in another charge, was kiting money from consigned guns that had sold, telling consignor(s) that the item or items had not yet sold. Talking about items worth upwards of $100K each.

Your own instinct, experience, education and study are your best assets in evaluating an item for sale. The higher the value of it, the sharper and better informed you must be !

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ANTIQUESMITHS
LM1300 SWHF425