I have an early j frame "pre 36" (5 screw) serial number 9xxx but it has the later, more common, thumb piece. Shouldn't this have the early button style flat latch? Are there different bolts or were they changed by S&w? Hope I'm making sense. The method of thumb piece retention seems different based on the type of latch. Thanks

The standard thumb piece for this SN would have been the symmetric or first flat latch style. I'm not sure what type your revolver has but a photo would help.

__________________
Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

This raised a good question, was the retention nut a universal fit, allowing the change of multiple vintage's of thumb pieces?

__________________
H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

I've never taken the part off of a Baby Chief but I suspect it has the little hat-shaped retaining screw.

__________________
Alan
SWCA LM 2023, SWHF 220

Here's what I got...

Attached Images

image.jpg (131.1 KB, 259 views)

That is not the correct Thumb Piece,I don't have a Picture of the correct One though.I am sure a previous Owner changed it,The early flat latches are very hard to use.

I think you will find the previous owner changed the bolt and the latch. Forum member usnrigger had some bolts and latches for sale several months ago.

Yes, when the thumb piece is changed from a flat latch which attaches with a male screw, the bolt must be changed as well. Not unusual to find these changed. Many disliked the flat latch especially the 1st style used up to at least the 26XXX range. And the 2nd and 3rd style flat latches were more user friendly.

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

Curiosity requires the question of whether your Baby Chief has the serrated or smooth ramp front sight. Relying on memory only I believe the smooth front ramp sight was the first and the serrated followed. Nice find, I might add!

__________________
Sam
S&WHF 333 S&WCA 2198

That is correct.It went Half Moon,Smooth Ramp and then Serrated Ramp.The OP's Serial number is right in the change between Smooth and Serrated.

IF I can find the older style cylinder bolt is it an easy swap? Thank you all for your knowledge.

Just me, but if I planned to shoot and possibly carry the gun I'd want to stay with the later latch. Much easier to use. But if your concern is restoring it to approximately original configuration with an eye to selling it, that's a whole other matter.

For me it would be a shooter and sometime carry gun, but I'm too broke not to be practical about this sort of thing.

__________________
Oh well, what the hell.

Lots of overlap on sights:

Any one of the three could be encountered between Serial numbers 6541 ~ August 1952 and 116XX Shipped April 1952. Additionally, just another confirmation of how much out of s/n chronology S&Ws were assembled and shipped!!

Latest reported round sight 116XX shipped 4/52.

Ribbed barrel with smooth ramp front sight; earliest observed #2945 and latest currently known #12340.

With the serrated ramp sight, lowest known #6541.

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

Yes, quite simple IF ONE has experience removing a sideplate without deforming the edges, which is all too common.

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

That would be a huge "if" for me. Matter of fact, if it were my gun, I'd let a smith do it. I mean, seriously, how much could it cost? And my inclination would be to put the original style latch on it.

That latch is the 1st and only style standard thumb piece supplied up to serial # 117, and the 1st style reintroduced in 1966 once the flat latches were deleted.

Post war I frames used four different styles of the standard thumb piece prior the their introduction with the flat latches, starting with the 2nd style.

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

After the Screws are removed with the correct Hollow Ground screwdriver removing the side plate is a breeze.You just take the screwdriver handle and hit the grip frame a few times on each side until the plate breaks loose.Do NOT pry on it with ANY Tools.

Great thread guys. I learned a lot here.

__________________
Baby Chief Admirer
SWCA 2870

According to the serial number 9XXX your baby was made in 1952. Smith and Wesson had started production in 1950 and the first few years had many changes occur. While I do have a few examples of early Baby Chief's they are not all the same (even though they were manufactured close to one another).

I am not considering myself a "Guru" on early I/J Frames a but know that back then there were many changes that occurred rapidly so don't automatically just assume your parts have been swapped.

Also there is a possibility that the original owner did swap out the Bolt, Thumb Latch and nut/screw but I would think the only real way to know (at that period) would be to either call Roy Jinx (S&W Historian) or get the gun lettered.

There are a few guys on the "Hand Ejectors - 1896 to 1961" section that might know a bit more than I concerning this. There is a fellow named Jim who knows quite a bit - so you might drop him a PM.

Chief38,

I agree, you're correct, we shouldn't assume it was swapped, and I would not absolutely dispute that the gun came with its present thumb piece, almost anything was possible. We've just observed so few like it. When you posted above: "I do have a few examples of early Baby Chief's they are not all the same..." were you referring to the thumb pieces not being the same?

I don't think Roy can confirm either way and would not usually comment on a small feature like that in a letter, but he might if specifically asked about it. And if I were sending for a letter I would ask and send a photo as well.

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

I've seen pics here of Terriers and .32 Hand Ejectors with the std. style cylinder release, like the J-frames got after 1966.

Some were I-frame guns, and some may have been on the J-frame. I've never studied the I-frame guns, as it makes no sense to me to have bought one after the Chief Special arrived in .38 Special.

Would the same cylinder release from a Terrier on the I-frame fit a Baby Chief? If so, some Chiefs may have shipped with that release.

But I agree that it's most likely a matter of the owner at some point having had the parts changed.

The I frame could have any of these four standard style thumb pieces I've researched.


FOUR I FRAME STYLES OF THUMB PIECES USED POST WAR THAT PRECEDE THE FLAT LATCHES:

The four I frame thumb pieces of the .22/32, .32 and .38/32 prior to the introduction of the flat latches, have a completely different evolution than all other frame sizes.

These post war revolvers used four different thumb pieces prior to the flat latches starting with left over pre war thumb pieces followed by three different and new standard type thumb pieces ending with the final style which is the same as the only style used on the first ~117 J frames (Baby Js). Used from 1946 to c. early 1953 (production dates, not shipping dates).

The 1st thumb piece used post war; left over pre war thumb pieces, carried over on the very earliest of the post war or ‘Transitional’ I, (also K & N) frames; the ‘double hourglass’ or ‘double pinch' around screw hole thumb piece with relief cuts/flare under checkered pad shown here on a K22/40.
When the modern 'Classics Series' was introduced, an exact copy of this #1 pre-war style and transitional post war style (old pre war inventory) was introduced on them but is an MIM cast part.




Flared or relieved edge (photo by JP@AK):



2nd style used, and first ‘new design' post war style thumb piece, still has the double 'pinch' but without relief cuts under checkered pad.




Flat edge (photo by JP@AK):



The 3rd style used (2nd new post war style) was a single hourglass or single 'pinch' in front of the screw hole like a #1 & 2 but from the center of the screw to the rear it's like a #4 below. Only seen on I frames.




4th style used (3rd new post war style) with no ‘pinches’ ended on the I frames with the introduction of the 2nd style ‘flat latch’, just prior to the Models of 1953. It was the style used on the first 117 or so .38 Chiefs Special Model of 1950 'Baby J' frames followed by the #1 style ‘flat latch’. This 4th style was used on all K and N frames immediately following the left over #1 pre war style just prior to the Models of 1950.

It was re-introduced on all I, J and K frame Airweights in 1966 and used for several years until the modern style with shaved off lower half took over ~ 1995-96.

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

If we are discussing the flat latch, yes all 3 patterns of flat latch cylinder releases are interchangeable. All 3 use the same bolt. Recently I saw one in the 19,000 SN range with the a first pattern flat latch.

I own #33903……with 1st style flat latch, and serrated Ramped sight.
In my database #36052, a Baby J w/ramp sight, has a 2nd style flat latch.

That may indicate an approximate transition period from 1st to 2nd style flat latch.

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

Update, I found an older latch finally.

Attached Images

image.jpg (130.1 KB, 70 views)

Bravo! She looks righteous now!

Which one of the four standard thumb pieces in my above post did it have on it?

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

Jim, from your pictures it had the 4th. It's not the greatest but its easily the favorite of my modest collection.

Looks good enough plus you can shoot it to your hearts delight with no pangs of guilt !

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819

Yes I was referring to the thumb latch.

The Baby Chiefs Thumb latches were pretty consistent and was introduced with the #4 (shown above) standard thumb piece which was used until ~#117. Then the #1 flat latch was used until the Model of 1953 New J frame which used the #2 flat latch.

__________________
Jim
S&WCA #819