I picked up a 32 Winchester Military & Police Target Model recently, since I rarely see that caliber with target sights. I also think that there might not be too many 5" guns in target configuration, since longer barrels were more popular in target models. This is my first target 32-20 M&P and it dates to 1910. There is very little information about these guns out there and nobody seems to have ever ventured any guesses on production numbers, so I am seeking any information that the members have that would estimate production.

There are about 80 32-20 M&Ps in the SWCA database and 13 of those are listed as target models. Now I would assume that target guns would tend to be in the hands of collectors and appear in the database in greater numbers, so if we estimate 10% of production were target models, that would be around 14,000 guns. There were only 2 target guns below my serial number and the rest were closer to and above the 100,000 s/n mark. SCSW3 states that target models are worth 50% to 100% premium over standard fixed sight guns, but that seems a little arbitrary if there are no estimates of target model production???

Anyway, any comments are welcome & here is my 32 Winchester all cleaned up and ready for the range.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Nice gun. Not often encountered.

Gary, you found a nice one. Did you hand-load for it, or use factory? I have never loaded any 32-20 but am told the necks are rather thin and the need to be extra careful sizing and seating. Let us know how the little beauty shoots.

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H Richard
SWCA1967 SWHF244

Very nice find. I have had several with fixed sights never had the
opportunity to get one with target sights at reasonable money.
People around here liked 32/20s, they are pretty common, and
usually pretty beat. I always keep a decent 22 and 38 on hand
for trade stock when someone turns up with one they usually
want to trade for a gun easier to buy ammo for. I cast my own
bullets, RCBS Fn-100gr/6 gr Unique, shoots well in my revolvers
and old Marlin 94.

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Sorry I can't help you with the production numbers, but I absolutely love that gun! The front sight is especially nice with the gold bead.
I have a 32-20 M&P King super target that I love to shoot. It's extremely accurate & all I've fired in it is factory ammo. You will really enjoy shooting yours.
Congrats!

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Paul
SWCA #2864

Very nice. A .32WCF Target is on my wish list, too.

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Chris
SWCA #2243 SWHF #292

I had a 6" .32-20 Target, # 308xx, that shipped in March 1907.

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John 3:16
WAR EAGLE!

Thats truly a beautiful pistol, they are terrific little shooters. Most folks first remark when firing the pistol is "Its Loud!" I searched around for one after getting a nice original 1920's era Winchester model 1892 in 32-20. My S&W fourth change came to me in a rough nickle finish, original grips and what looked as if it had been used as a hammer to put up wanted posters dents all over the butt end. Its number in the 70K's and shoots great. Reloading the 32-20 is similar to the .22 Hornet, it has a very thin and narrow neck. I use an expander die even when loading 85 gr. jacketed hollow points for my Winchester. I do not use the same ammunition in the pistol as I use in the Winchester, I load the Winchester stuff up and it really does the job on varmints. You need to keep the pistol loads down in the low pressure catagory or close to factory specs. I envy the adjustable sights...

Gary
That is an exceptionally nice example. Congratulations.

I, too, have a target model .32 Winchester with a 5" barrel. It is quite a bit earlier than yours and is a Model of 1902 (round butt). The serial number is 8037 and it letters to March, 1904.

I don't have any data to back it up, but I believe production of target models in the early years is way below 10%.

Back in 2005, I had a guy (whose name I cannot recall, but at that time he was an NRA Director) visit me here in Alaska and I was showing him a few pieces from my collection. He is also a S&W collector and he told me he had some evidence that there were only 12 Model of 1902 Winchester target models known to exist. I really wish I had asked him to send me his documentation, but I wasn't smart enough. I have no idea if this is true and tend to doubt it. But the point is there are not many of them. I think there are quite a few more of the Model of 1905s, like yours. But even those are scarce, at best.

This probably doesn't help much, since it is anecdotal, but I offer it up anyway.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

Both - I shoot mainly reloads in my fixed sight 32-20s, but find a box of Remington ammo once and awhile. I started loading this caliber several years ago for my fixed sight 32-20s, and it loads pretty easily for me and my Lee Carbide die set. I currently load 3 grains of Promo, with a 93 grain RN lead bullet. It has a slight tendency to collapse when seating the bullet, but so does my 44-40 cases. I think it is a standard reloading issue with bottle-necked cases, so I keep the crimp at a bare minimum to avoid wrinkling the case.

My current reloads run around 800 fps in a 6.5" barrel. I have been up around 1000 fps with other loads, but am very comfortable with anything from 700 - 800 range.

Interesting that current Remington ammunition is labeled Express Rifle on the box and is loaded with 100 grain LRN. I have not chronographed it, but there is actually a much lower felt recoil than with my reloads.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Thanks. The pictures are making it look a little better than in the hand. The finish is good, but has some areas of underlying plum color. Edges, however, are sharp and it has not been abused in any way. The sound of firing 32-20s is very distinct, more like the crack of a rifle than a revolver at speeds approaching 1000 fps. These are very strong revolvers and when you compare them to the 38 M&P, there is lots more steel in both the barrel and cylinder, but I keep loads down to 800 or less with satisfactory results.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Thanks for the info Jack. I was quite certain that 10% was too high, but I wish I knew who had the information that allowed experts like Nahas and Supica to double the value of a 32-20 Target Gun over standard configuration. It was not done in a vacuum, but as I suspected, the data does not appear to be available.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

I know nothing of the numbers produced, but I imagine Supica and Nahas based their pricing information on observations of priced realized from sales. Based on my own observations over the last 50 years or so, I think their estimate of the value of target .32-20's is correct. Even back in the pre internet days when there was more regional variation in prices, the price of a target version was approximately double that of a fixed sight gun.

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Tom
1560

Thanks for the information Tom.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Great catch (I was also bidding). You'll see the figure of 10% target M&Ps, but I think the percentage is much lower in 32 Winchester. I have never seen an estimate of barrel lengths other than 6 or 6.5 inch, but I suspect that is also well under 10% of the targets. Of course, the number of alternate barrel lengths in existence other than in Mike's collection is much lower than that.

Bob

Gary
I have 7 targets they are as below.
1. 1899 5 inch shipped to Phil beakert serial # 741 Blue shipped ( with serial # 742)
2. 1902 4 inch .Nickel serial # 7914
3. 1905 1st 5 inch Blue serial # 34810
4.1905 2nd 6 1/2 blue serial # 44692
5. 1905 4th 6 inch Nickel serial # 96823
6. 1905 3th 6 inch Blue serial number 56801
7. 1905 4th 6 inch blue serial # 143556 could be the last one made. 98%
My best guess as to how many were made would be less than 500 thats based on the amount I have seen over the last 40 years.
I hope this helps.
Jim Fisher

Okay, here are some documented facts (very few) and some observations (recorded by Jinks) from which you may be able to infer something worthwhile.

I have two 32-20 Targets--#42094 shipped December 22, 1908, and #114655 shipped August 21, 1923. (The first one has 6.5" barrel--second one 6".) That's the end of documented facts.

You may recall me running my mouth from time to time about the "large screw spring up rear sight" found on .38 M&P Targets which pop up here. The same sight was used on 32-20's during the same time period (approximately 1911-1923). The 32-20 serial number spread of guns with that sight during that period is 76613 and 95573. The sight wasn't much account right from the beginning, but wasn't replaced until S&W used up the sight inventory. Jinks notes "Since target revolvers in these series are rare and made in small quantity it could be a long phase out period." (And sure enough, it was!!). I asked him "How rare?" "2%". Now, my question was applicable to the 38 M&P's; but it stands to reason the 32-20's were just as rare.

Ralph Tremaine

It perhaps should be emphasized that 2% figure is applicable to the time period noted---1911-1923.

Thanks Jim - I assume all you listed are 32-20, and if so, are you trying to get hold of all 500 of them?

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Gary
Here is a link to the 4 inch nickel target.
Yours is a very nice gun you can be glad you got it.
I have been looking for these for 40 years and This is all I had a chance to buy.

1902 NICKEL 4 INCH 32/20 TARGET

I love the front sight on that 4" target as it makes it look like a tack driver. Mine is stamped Lyman, which was available from the factory as I understand. Do you know if the box is original? The reason I ask is that a 1903 date for the 2 language instructions is by far the earliest I have seen. Prior to this one, I have not run into one before 1910 - interesting box, great gun.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

The SWCA database shows only a couple of pre-1910 32-20 targets and more from the years after 1923. I like Jim's number of 500 total, just sounds right in the ballpark to me.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Here are a couple pics of my Model of 1902 Target with 5" barrel. As you can see, the blue is very thin and the stocks are later than the gun. Roy's letter confirms it shipped with black hard rubber.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

No argument from me!

There are any number of folks I will willingly (even eagerly) argue with about almost anything. Mr. Jim does not number among them. He is WAY beyond collector---and far into (advanced) student. When he talks, I listen.

Ralph Tremaine

Hi
Jack thats a great gun there were not very many 1902 targets made in 5 inch.
most were made in 6 1/2.
Jim Fisher

OK, I was at the range today with my new trusty 32 Winchester M&P target, but did not take any pictures. I shot from 3 different boxes. First was 93 grain LRN with Promo powder, next was 93 grain LRN with Trail Boss, and the last was factory Remington 32-20 with 100 grain LRN.

The gun functioned through 80 or so rounds without objection and worked flawlessly. Hammer pull and DA action was notably stiffer than my 1920s M&Ps and my Masterpiece revolvers, but the gun worked as if it were new. I benched the gun and got 2" grouping at 10 yards and 5" groups at 25 yards, but the gun shot high. I lowered the rear sight until it bottomed out and I was still shooting 12" high?? I am going to drop the powder charges until I get the bullet to come down and will probably try some 95 grain SWC. Half the fun will be figuring out what loads give the best accuracy.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Hi
Gary i think you will have to get a higher front sight.
A sight like is on my 4 inch will put you where you want to be.
Don Mundell has the sights you need. he has a couple different heights.
Give him a call. Your gun would have had a sight like is on my 4 inch from the factory.
His number is 413-436-5867 tell him you need the same sight he sent to mike priwer
for a K frame.
Jim Fisher

Great idea & thanks Jim. Don actually has a list of front sights I was looking for last fall, but it must have fallen through the cracks. I will contact him to see what he has left.

I had not yet thought about that issue, but had assumed since the company offered the Lyman front sight, it would have been original to the gun.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Gary

45054 is currently being offered for sale on one of the commercial sales sites.
It's a 6 1/2" nickel engraved 32-20 target. As close as some of the known 32-20 targets
are in serial number, it suggests that a group of them might have been made up in 1910.

Regards, Mike Priwer

Thanks Mike. I saw that one offered by our fearless leader. The price looks good right now, but my guess is it will go much - much higher, even though it is a refinished gun.

I will probably get this one lettered, since I assume many target revolvers were sent directly to individuals.

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Gary
SWCA 2515

Here is mine, finish challenged but like yours a great shooter:



S/N 56xxx

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Jim
Many K and N Frames

You might be right, but I have no idea for sure. Mine shipped to Phillip Bekeart on March 15, 1904. It is the only one I own.

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Jack
SWCA #2475, SWHF #318

Gary, nice gun! You might try a lighter bullet to get the gun to lower on the target.

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Tom
NRA Pistol Inst