Pre model 10 ship date

larbuck · #1 08-31-2015, 06:40 PM

Hello - I'm new to the forum and I have a question re model verification and ship date. I have what I believe is a pre model 10, 38 special with a 5" barrel. This is a 4 screw model, serial number 276720. Can anyone help, especially with the approximate ship date? I will appreciate any info you can provide.
Thanks, Larbuck

DWalt · #2 08-31-2015, 06:53 PM

It's earlier than a Pre-Model 10 (1948-57). It's an M&P which likely shipped about mid-1917, assuming there is no letter prefix to the SN..

larbuck · #3 08-31-2015, 07:05 PM

Thank you. I had it pegged between 1915 and 1920. Thanks for verifying for me.
~ Larbuck

DWalt · #4 08-31-2015, 07:17 PM

At that time, it would be a 5-screw, not a 4-screw - 4 sideplate screws, plus another screw ahead of the trigger guard. Those S&Ws described as 4-screw have only 3 sideplate screws, as the upper screw was eliminated.

JP@AK · #5 08-31-2015, 07:24 PM

In addition to the number of frame screws, what would settle this is whether there is a C in front of that serial number. C276720 and 276720 are miles (many years) apart! No C and DWalt's first response is right on the money.

larbuck · #6 08-31-2015, 07:50 PM

3 sideplate screws and one ahead of the trigger guard. There is no letter designation in front of the serial number - - 276720 only.

JP@AK · #7 08-31-2015, 07:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by larbuck

3 sideplate screws and one ahead of the trigger guard. There is no letter designation in front of the serial number - - 276720 only.

Here's what I would bet money on:
Your revolver is wearing stocks that are much, much later than the gun. The top of them is hiding the rear-most sideplate screw. It is a 5 screw revolver.

larbuck · #8 08-31-2015, 08:00 PM

Actually it is a 5 screw. sorry for earlier mis-information. Also, there is no letter designation in front of the six digit serial number.

larbuck · #9 09-11-2016, 12:21 PM

Just trying to pin down what revolver I have. Info available so far is: S&W 38 special M&P, 5" bbl, S/N 276720, 5 screw, apparently shipped from the factory around mid 1917. If the above info is correct, would this be considered a Model of 1905, 4th revision?

DWalt · #10 09-11-2016, 01:06 PM

Nearest SNs I have to S/N 276720 are 2747xx shipping in 4/17 and 2738xx shipping in 3/17. Yours is probably close to that time period. Some collectors may call it a Model of 1905, 4th change, but S&W would have called it a .38 Special Military and Police (M&P) model. It could have either a round butt or a square butt.

As a tip, it is good practice to start your own new thread with such questions. Things get confused when you tag onto an existing thread.

larbuck · #11 09-11-2016, 09:28 PM

OK, thanks for the info and the "tip". As a matter of clarification, it's a square butt.

JP@AK · #12 09-12-2016, 12:29 PM

larbuck
You are very gracious. But I honestly don't understand the so-called "tip." You started this thread, just the way you should have. It doesn't look like an interruption or "high-jack" to me. I'm not sure why you received such an admonition.

Anyway, I'm glad you are here!

Absalom · #13 09-12-2016, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JP@AK

larbuck
You are very gracious. But I honestly don't understand the so-called "tip." You started this thread, just the way you should have. It doesn't look like an interruption or "high-jack" to me. I'm not sure why you received such an admonition.

Anyway, I'm glad you are here!

DWalt may not have realized that the OP was reviving his own old thread. I also thought for a moment his new post was about a different gun.

JP@AK · #14 09-12-2016, 01:54 PM

Ah! That makes sense. Thanks.

C Broad Arrow · #15 09-12-2016, 08:21 PM

If there was a C as a prefix, where would number C2906XX fall into the timeline?

JP@AK · #16 09-12-2016, 08:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C Broad Arrow

If there was a C as a prefix, where would number C2906XX fall into the timeline?

1955-ish. I've seen four screw guns in the mid-to-high C300xxx, which would be sometime in 1956 when the top sideplate screw went away.

C Broad Arrow · #17 09-12-2016, 08:33 PM

Here is a picture of the gun. I thought it might be 70's with the grips.

Muley Gil · #18 09-12-2016, 08:42 PM

The front sight has been altered. It should be a half moon.

C Broad Arrow · #19 09-12-2016, 08:53 PM

How easy is it to find a piece to replace it in order to restore it to original?

Absalom · #20 09-12-2016, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muley Gil

The front sight has been altered. It should be a half moon.

Acc. to the SCSW, the half moon changed to the ramped front sight starting in 1952, so on a 1955-ish gun, this would be correct.

Arrow, avoid drawing any conclusions from the grip style to the gun. K-frame stocks are interchangable over time and people replaced them for later styles with reckless abandon

.

PS: Ignore my first sentence, all this hypothetical talk is confusing me, I just remembered this was a "what-if, but not really" question.

Or wait, is it? Which gun are we talking about?

Muley Gil · #21 09-12-2016, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Absalom

Acc. to the SCSW, the half moon changed to the ramped front sight starting in 1952, so on a 1955-ish gun, this would be correct.

Arrow, avoid drawing any conclusions from the grip style to the gun. K-frame stocks are interchangable over time and people replaced them for later styles with reckless abandon

.

PS: Ignore my first sentence, all this hypothetical talk is confusing me, I just remembered this was a "what-if, but not really" question.

Or wait, is it? Which gun are we talking about?

You're right. I got confused over which poster had which revolver.

Absalom · #22 09-12-2016, 09:49 PM

Okay, I'm going to try again:

C Broad Arrow, is the picture you posted supposed to be of serial C 2906xx?

That would be odd, because, while the ramped front sight fits, the gun appears to have the pre-1927 mushroom-shaped ejector rod knob.

C Broad Arrow · #23 09-12-2016, 10:01 PM

So the dealer claims. I find the gun confusing, as it seems to have parts I would not expect on a 50s gun. I thought it was from the 70s as previously stated. This is C2906XX

Absalom · #24 09-12-2016, 10:13 PM

Nope, there is no C, I think. Don't see it on the cylinder. There is no C on the dealer tag either, by the way. Besides, with a C prefix it would have the short action, and it clearly has the long action hammer. So this is a likely refinished earlier M&P from around 1919 with post-1968 stocks. And as Muley Gil originally suspected, the front sight was modified from a half moon to a ramp.

C Broad Arrow · #25 09-12-2016, 10:20 PM

So the big question is, is it worth the money being asked for it?

JP@AK · #26 09-12-2016, 10:22 PM

Okay, look. Your dealer is full of baloney. Let's run through the litany:

1. The gun has a prewar, long action hammer.
2. The barrel has a notch for the mushroom or acorn shaped extractor rod knob.
3. The extractor rod does have the mushroom knob.
4. There is no Made in USA stamp on the frame, let alone a four line address which a 1950s gun would have.
5. The serial number on the cylinder not only is missing the letter C, it indicates a revolver made in about 1917 (for reference, 273380 shipped in March, 1917). This is consistent with items 1-4 above.
6. The front sight has been altered.
7. The stocks are from 1967 or later.

So there you have it. Draw your own conclusions.

JP@AK · #27 09-12-2016, 10:25 PM

Looks like Absalom has quicker fingers than I do. But I went back and looked at your pictures a couple times while I was composing my post.

In any case, he and I are in agreement. And yes, I meant to mention the obvious reblue. Not a bad job, but new bluing nonetheless.

Absalom · #28 09-12-2016, 10:25 PM

It has little collector value, but if it checks out mechanically, it's in great condition to make a nice fun shooter or truck gun at a very reasonable price. This gun was produced before S&W started hardening cylinders around 1920, so diets of hot loads aren't recommended, and you don't know what all has happened to an almost 100-year-old gun, but at 250 bucks, what are you risking?

JP@AK · #29 09-12-2016, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C Broad Arrow

So the big question is, is it worth the money being asked for it?

I think so, if you are looking for a shooter. $250 isn't bad at all.

But do keep in mind it does not have a heat treated cylinder, so I suggest limiting its diet of ammo to standard pressure rounds with lead bullets. It will probably love 148 grain wadcutters!

Edit: Once again, Absalom beats me to it. BUT, the Good Book says "by the mouth of two or three witnesses, all shall be confirmed." So there you have it. Take "our" advice.

Absalom · #30 09-12-2016, 10:30 PM

Jack, we are working like stereo speakers!

JP@AK · #31 09-12-2016, 10:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Absalom

Jack, we are working like stereo speakers!

Or Pete and Repeat!

Good thing you are as smart as I am. Or the other way around . . .

C Broad Arrow · #32 09-12-2016, 10:36 PM

So this is not a model 10 as listed. Then what is it? A pre-model 10?

vytoland · #33 09-12-2016, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JP@AK

Okay, look. Your dealer is full of baloney. Let's run through the litany:

1. The gun has a prewar, long action hammer.
2. The barrel has a notch for the mushroom or acorn shaped extractor rod knob.
3. The extractor rod does have the mushroom knob.
4. There is no Made in USA stamp on the frame, let alone a four line address which a 1950s gun would have.
5. The serial number on the cylinder not only is missing the letter C, it indicates a revolver made in about 1917 (for reference, 273380 shipped in March, 1917). This is consistent with items 1-4 above.
6. The front sight has been altered.
7. The stocks are from 1967 or later.

So there you have it. Draw your own conclusions.

additionally.....

8. there is no S&W logo..typical of 1918 - 1920 period
9. the rear sight configuration is from 1919 and before.....

JP@AK · #34 09-12-2016, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C Broad Arrow

So this is not a model 10 as listed. Then what is it? A pre-model 10?

Some would say yes. Most of us would say absolutely not.

The preferred meaning of "pre-Model 10" if you must use that term at all (I personally dislike it, since it is a total anachronism), would indicate a gun with all the engineering changes in place that appeared on the Model 10 in 1958. That means, for example, the 1945 sliding hammer block safety and the 1948 "High Speed" hammer. This gun has neither of those.

You can, with accuracy, call this an ancestor to the Model 10. The lineage began with the Model of 1899 and saw improvements from time to time over the years. The best name to use for this particular revolver is ".38 Military & Police Square Butt" revolver. That is exactly what S&W called it when it was new.

JP@AK · #35 09-12-2016, 10:46 PM

C Broad Arrow

Here you go:

C Broad Arrow · #36 09-13-2016, 08:13 AM

I sent an email to the dealer regarding the serial number last night while we were discussing this gun to confirm the lack of a "C" prefix. What he sent back was a confirmation that there was no "C". However, there are additional numbers. The serial number is 290620-9222. It is the addition of the four numbers which intrigues me. Are these arsenal rework numbers. Or would they be S&W numbers added after the gun was returned to the factory for rework?

Absalom · #37 09-13-2016, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C Broad Arrow

..... However, there are additional numbers. The serial number is 290620-9222. It is the addition of the four numbers which intrigues me. Are these arsenal rework numbers. Or would they be S&W numbers added after the gun was returned to the factory for rework?

Did he say where he got the additional four digits?

There are two possibilities. One would be an assembly number from the yoke. But those don't show up anywhere together with the serial, so that makes little sense. The other one would be a badge or inventory number which a later user stamped on the butt next to the serial. NYPD sometimes put their shield numbers there or on the backstrap pre-1950s.

It's certainly not part of the factory serial number.

C Broad Arrow · #38 09-13-2016, 08:51 PM

Roger that. I got a picture of the butt and it does not show the extra 4 numbers. The 4 numbers the deal cited were part of a Gov of Can registration. As some will know there is a registration requirement for all handguns. The 4 extra are part of the registration and do not appear on the firearm.