Just an observation:

Has it occurred to anyone else that this obsession with counting the number of screws for purposes of identification in case of M&P's, and actually other Hand Ejectors also, is usually just confusing things instead of helping?

If the serial number is correctly given, it doesn't matter how many screws there are, especially since it usually isn't clear whether new members are counting the screws correctly, and then experienced members get into these explanations that sometimes sound like "who's on first?" routines to clarify which screw gets counted for what purpose....

Screw the screws, just tell us the serial number!

Looking at a gun from a distance in a gunshop case or at a gunshow on a table.................... it is helpful to understand screws and how many there are in relationship to age.
I'll keep counting screws and mentoring new collectors the way we always have, thank-you

My first S&W was/is a 5 screw K22. I read up on the 'screw' thing before the purchase. It was not that hard to understand. I do understand that there are 5 screw guns with higher serial numbers than 4 screws of the same model. Give me a 5 screw every time.

Take a .32 Hand Ejector Post war #574497.

Can you tell me in two words but not "screw #" exactly which of the following non model numbered versions it is, if either one of us doesn't know the following collector terms?

Post war Transitional I
Improved I frame
Early New I
Or late model New I

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Jim
S&WCA #819

No, I couldn't, and that's besides the point. I have not argued that the number of screws is always irrelevant; it can, and in your example it does, serve as an identifying characteristic.

My little rant, however, was more triggered by the observation over the last several months that we seem to be getting a lot of inquiries by new folks who are diligently (mis-)counting screws on their Model 10-5 or other common model because they are somehow under the impression that this is a crucial thing, but are unable to properly identify the serial number. I was just (admittedly a bit forcefully) commenting on the misplaced focus.

Speaking of screws, of course there is the Model 1896, where the number of screws apparently depended on what the workers at S&W had for breakfast that morning, or something random like that, since there is apparently no connection at all between 4 or 5 screws on the side-plate and the serial number or shipping date.

Personally I have no problem with new folks wanting to bone up on screw counts or any other S&W collecting knowledge. And bravo that they come to the forum if they want to understand it, where they are more likely to get truer understanding of it and anything else S&W related.

I can hardly agree that focus on screw count is misplaced. It was conceived out of a need, serves that need very well, and as my former post exemplified it's hardly beside the point, it is the point. Many may not even realize that they do not grasp its true meaning and usefulness, hence their frustration. For example, that it's only relevant to the decade and a half following WW II. Therefore clearly not pertaining to the Model 1896 of your example.

Many more don't even recognize unless they learned it on this forum, that there are two "screw counts"; one for the K & N frames and a necessarily different screw count for the I & J frames.

But I applaud you for bringing up the screw count in your thread, you do a service to members new and old.

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Exactly my point. The screw count is important for a limited time period and specific models, in many more cases it doesn't matter, and in at least one case, the Model 1896, it actually confuses.

I don't disagree with anything in your eloquent defense of the screws for the collector.

But I stand by what I said before: A gun identification is more likely to benefit from an accurate serial number reading than a screw count that seems frequently incorrect.

Ok you're just going in a circle now. A serial # is always helpful of course but in the screw count period it's not near as useful as the screw count to pinpoint a particular model quickly and efficiently, at a show, in a phone conversation, in a forum thread, etc., as I illustrated in my 1st post that you called "beside the point".

So since you now know the screw count only pertains to the "limited time period" and it isn't and shouldn't be used for any models outside of that period, you have no point and your argument is pointless.

You're just creating needless frustration for yourself. So respectfully, this is the end of the conversation for me, my time is wasted, no one can help you further, you won't get them to agree with you as shown by the other posts above, and I'll not return to this thread.

There are no screw count police so you can do and think as you please.

All the best and good luck,

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Jim
S&WCA #819

Quod erat demonstrandum. And we're done. Thank you.