Help finding age and value older S&W revolvers

[mturnerb]

Hello:

I'm helping my mom sell some guns left in a collection. Her 2nd husband passed away in 1992. He was a major collector and distributor of S&W, and a number still remain in the collection.

These include:

A 38-44 "Outdoorsman" in .38 special with some wear but in decent overall condition, long barrel (6"), in original box (unfortunately taped on sides with masking tape). Serial number is 57705 (marked on frame and butt with paint inlay). The box is unlike any of the other S&W boxes I've seen - appears to date to WWII era or earlier.

A .357 magnum with large frame (pretty sure it's model 19), appears to be early model based on overall appearance, serial number is 56816. 4 inch barrel. No box. Good condition with some wear - looks like holster wear on muzzle and general wear from use. No box. Pinned barrel, 3 screws on right side, one in front of trigger guard.

A Model 66-1 in 357 magnum, 6 inch barrel, appears to be a dull stainless steel finish. In original box with all papers, tools, etc. SN is 55K4735. Never fired, excellent condition.

I have the standard catalog on Kindle but have had no luck sorting out all the models and cross-referencing that with serial numbers. Any help much appreciated.

[murphydog]

Welcome! To start, photos would really help for value estimates.

The second one sounds to be a Registered Magnum, a scarce and very valuable gun.

If you are able to tell us who your former father-in-law was, someone here almost certainly knew and will have recollections of him.

[mturnerb]

Originally Posted by murphydog

Welcome! To start, photos would really help for value estimates.

The second one sounds to be a Registered Magnum, a scarce and very valuable gun.

If you are able to tell us who your former father-in-law was, someone here almost certainly knew and will have recollections of him.

His name was Jack Swinney. He was president of the Mississippi Gun Collectors group for a long time. I'll try to add some photos, have to figure it out! Thanks

[mturnerb]

Here are links to photos in dropbox.

38-44: Dropbox - S&W 38-44 Outdoorsman in Box - Simplify your life

Vintage 357 Magnum w/o box: Dropbox - S&W 357 Magnum no Box - Simplify your life

Model 66-1 Stainless 357 magnum: Dropbox - S&W 66-1 357 Magnum in box - Simplify your life

Posting photos in separate replies

[mturnerb]

Photos of the 38-44:

[Jim Watson]

Prewar .38-44 Outdoorsman, value pretty high.
Prewar "Registered" Magnum, value very high.
1978-1981 Combat Magnum stainless, value good, "-1"s are not real common.

[mturnerb]

Photos of the .357 Magnum vintage (Registered Magnum)

[mturnerb]

Photos of the 66-1:

[JP@AK]

Just FYI, the Registered Magnum and the Model 19 are completely different items. The former is a prewar N frame (predecessor of the Model 27), while the latter is a K frame and wasn't available until 1956 (first units were assembled in December, 1955).

As mentioned by Jim Watson, the Registered Magnum is quite valuable, much more so than a Model 19 Combat Magnum.

Both the .38/44 and the Registered Magnum are five screw guns. The one you aren't seeing is hidden under the top of the right stock panel.

I suspect the stocks on your Registered Magnum are not original. The top of the panels is tapered and the early Magna stocks from the 1930s had sharp shoulders. Also, the star on the butt indicates this revolver went back to S&W's Service Department for some reason. If you take the stocks off, you should find a date stamped on the left side of the grip frame, indicating the month and year it visited the Service Department.

In any case, it is a nice, interesting and valuable revolver.

[H Richard]

The 2nd gun is not a Mod 19, but a Pre Model 27, and/or a Registered Magnum. Open the cylinder and look at the inner frame and ejector housing groove. See what may be stamped there. I don't expect and "Mod #", but to see a "Reg ###".

[JP@AK]

The Registration number is 3792.

[mturnerb]

Originally Posted by H Richard

The 2nd gun is not a Mod 19, but a Pre Model 27, and/or a Registered Magnum. Open the cylinder and look at the inner frame and ejector housing groove. See what may be stamped there. I don't expect and "Mod #", but to see a "Reg ###".

The Reg # is on the inner frame, it is "3792". Photo attached.

[JP@AK]

BTW the round mark on the butt, following the serial number and SD star is a plugged swivel hole. Hard to say when that hole was plugged, but possibly when the gun was returned for service. The Reg Mag didn't normally ship with a swivel, but it could have been special ordered that way (all Reg Mags were special order items) and perhaps a later owner didn't want to use a lanyard and had the swivel removed.

[mturnerb]

Photos inside grip - looks like maybe May 1945 for service date?

[mturnerb]

Originally Posted by JP@AK

BTW the round mark on the butt, following the serial number and SD star is a plugged swivel hole. Hard to say when that hole was plugged, but possibly when the gun was returned for service. The Reg Mag didn't normally ship with a swivel, but it could have been special ordered that way (all Reg Mags were special order items) and perhaps a later owner didn't want to use a lanyard and had the swivel removed.

Makes sense. I have a 1917 with the lanyard swivel.

[mrcvs]

That Registered Magnum revolver, while still desirable, appears to be refinished in such a manner (amateur) that the star on the butt has nothing to do with a factory refinish, and, if it does, it has since been unprofessionally refinished again.

[JP@AK]

Originally Posted by mturnerb

Photos inside grip - looks like maybe May 1945 for service date?

Yes. That's what it looks like to me.

Edit: Looked a second time. Looks like it might have been returned again in August, 1950.

[raljr1]

I saw 4 different return dates on the grip frame, 5.45, 8.50, 9.54, and 3.65. Makes me wish that gun could talk cause it sure looks like it's been around. I agree that the last refinish looks like it was not done at the factory. Both nice guns, but the finish condition will have a negative impact on the value. I would not hazard a guess at value because I'd likley be wrong.

[mturnerb]

Originally Posted by mrcvs

That Registered Magnum revolver, while still desirable, appears to be refinished in such a manner (amateur) that the star on the butt has nothing to do with a factory refinish, and, if it does, it has since been unprofessionally refinished again.

Interesting comment - holding it in my hands the finish looks as good to my eye as on many other vintage S&Ws (and newer ones as well) I've handled. FYI - I wiped it with oil (Ballistol) pretty good before photos, wiped with microfiber cloth but not obsessively. Most of the surface marks in photos wipe off easily.

Can you help me understand what you're seeing that I'm missing?

[raljr1]

Originally Posted by mturnerb

Interesting comment - holding it in my hands the finish looks as good to my eye as on many other vintage S&Ws (and newer ones as well) I've handled. FYI - I wiped it with oil (Ballistol) pretty good before photos, wiped with microfiber cloth but not obsessively. Most of the surface marks in photos wipe off easily.



Can you help me understand what you're seeing that I'm missing?

Look at grip picture #2... just above the grip cutout you see a stud that has been polished flat. Those are seldom polished that flat at the factory and are normally domed...also, the made in usa stamp on the right side of the grip looks faded or polished away...there are other indicators, but those are two easy ones to spot.. still valuable guns, just not as much as they could have been.

Robert

[murphydog]

Thanks for the photos!

The model 66 is probably in the $700-800 range, the Outdoorsman $1500 +, and the RM ‘several’ thousand.

It will be extra work, but getting a letter of authenticity from the SWHF followed by a records search may reveal quite a bit more about the gun’s history and would likely add to its value, if you are not urgently needing to sell it. This also pertains to the Outdoorsman but probably not the model 66.

[mturnerb]

Originally Posted by murphydog

Thanks for the photos!

The model 66 is probably in the $700-800 range, the Outdoorsman $1500 +, and the RM ‘several’ thousand.

It will be extra work, but getting a letter of authenticity from the SWHF followed by a records search may reveal quite a bit more about the gun’s history and would likely add to its value, if you are not urgently needing to sell it. This also pertains to the Outdoorsman but probably not the model 66.

Thanks - I ordered the letter for the RM and considering for the Outdoorsman.

[mturnerb]

Originally Posted by JP@AK

Just FYI, the Registered Magnum and the Model 19 are completely different items. The former is a prewar N frame (predecessor of the Model 27), while the latter is a K frame and wasn't available until 1956 (first units were assembled in December, 1955).

As mentioned by Jim Watson, the Registered Magnum is quite valuable, much more so than a Model 19 Combat Magnum.

Both the .38/44 and the Registered Magnum are five screw guns. The one you aren't seeing is hidden under the top of the right stock panel.

I suspect the stocks on your Registered Magnum are not original. The top of the panels is tapered and the early Magna stocks from the 1930s had sharp shoulders. Also, the star on the butt indicates this revolver went back to S&W's Service Department for some reason. If you take the stocks off, you should find a date stamped on the left side of the grip frame, indicating the month and year it visited the Service Department.

In any case, it is a nice, interesting and valuable revolver.

The stocks on mine look very similar to these in the Standard Catalog. Am I missing something?

[JP@AK]

Originally Posted by raljr1

I saw 4 different return dates on the grip frame, 5.45, 8.50, 9.54, and 3.65.

Maybe. The dot isn't there on the 54 and 65. They might be dates, but also maybe not. An SWHF search could turn them up. If that's what they are, this RM really has an interesting history!

[JP@AK]

Originally Posted by mturnerb

The stocks on mine look very similar to these in the Standard Catalog. Am I missing something?

The picture you posted in the Dropbox link showing the right stock panel clearly shows a tapered shoulder on the Magna stocks. From 1935 until about 1953, that shoulder area dropped off sharply toward the frame, as shown in my attached photo here. The diamond Magnas from 1953 until c. 1966 had the more tapered shoulder like yours.


ALSO, if you look at the picture you posted of the butt, the stocks don't fit well at the bottom. Consider that, in those days, all stocks were hand-fitted to the frame. An RM would not have been shipped from the factory with such poorly fitted stocks.

[mturnerb]

Originally Posted by JP@AK

The picture you posted in the Dropbox link showing the right stock panel clearly shows a tapered shoulder on the Magna stocks. From 1935 until about 1953, that shoulder area dropped off sharply toward the frame, as shown in my attached photo here. The diamond Magnas from 1953 until c. 1966 had the more tapered shoulder like yours.


ALSO, if you look at the picture you posted of the butt, the stocks don't fit well at the bottom. Consider that, in those days, all stocks were hand-fitted to the frame. An RM would not have been shipped from the factory with such poorly fitted stocks.

The expertise is much appreciated! Thanks

[DARE]

Here is a pic of my RM with correct grips. These grips are called magna.
Compared to your grips, the medallions are bigger and the checkering pattern is a little different.
There was also another grip referred to as service stocks.
I think your grips are from the post-war period.
There is an excellent N frame grip guide listed under the Notable Thread Index.
It lists pictures of pretty much all of the N frame stocks.

[murphydog]

Originally Posted by mturnerb

Thanks - I ordered the letter for the RM and considering for the Outdoorsman.

Fast work!

Once you have the letter, the records search can be requested. The form for this is on the same page on the SWHF website as the letter request form.

[jay73]

The RM appears to have a diamond stamp with a "B" inside the barrel shroud after the serial number. This likely indicates a barrel replacement. As mentioned, the rebound slide stud has been polished flat, as it would have been for a post war factory refinish.

I would still obtain a letter and records for this. Still a valuable revolver.

[22hipower]

Interesting Registered Magnum; 1939 production I think based on the Standard Catalog's info. The barrel looks better finish wise than the rest of the gun so agree with the earlier comment about a barrel replacement. The stocks are post war as has been pointed out; the correct ones will run from $600-$900 depending on condition but show up occasionally on eBay and elsewhere. Don't know that I've ever seen one with four factory return stamps, hopefully the Historical Foundation will have the service records. Nice gun, all the Registered Magnums are, regardless of condition. One like it in original condition might be in the $7.5k-$10k range; maybe half that in its current condition barring any "interesting" info surfacing from the Historical Letter. Enjoy it, not everybody has one. . . .but just about everybody would like to.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

[mturnerb]

Originally Posted by 22hipower

Interesting Registered Magnum; 1939 production I think based on the Standard Catalog's info. The barrel looks better finish wise than the rest of the gun so agree with the earlier comment about a barrel replacement. The stocks are post war as has been pointed out; the correct ones will run from $600-$900 depending on condition but show up occasionally on eBay and elsewhere. Don't know that I've ever seen one with four factory return stamps, hopefully the Historical Foundation will have the service records. Nice gun, all the Registered Magnums are, regardless of condition. One like it in original condition might be in the $7.5k-$10k range; maybe half that in its current condition barring any "interesting" info surfacing from the Historical Letter. Enjoy it, not everybody has one. . . .but just about everybody would like to.

Jeff
SWCA #1457

Interesting that you mention that. My mom asked me which of the collection I'd like to have and I chose this one just based on look and feel. I thought I'd find out more about it while researching selling the others. She is no longer able to live at home and we have to help her move a number of guns left from a massive collection that has been sold down over the decades since Jack passed away in 1992.

Another one I'm researching the history on and getting some expert input on the Colt forum is a 1964 Python in the original box with 2.5" barrel, nickel plated. The value of that one caught me by surprise too. (Letter requested from Colt on that one).

[S&W ucla]

IIRC, The Mississippi Highway Patrol ordered a number of early magnums with swivels.

[S&W ucla]

From my notes, 54 gun shipment to MHP. 5" bbls with butt swivel. There was one for sale a few years ago that I considered but didn't buy. I can't find asking or sale price.

[handejector]

Originally Posted by raljr1

I saw 4 different return dates on the grip frame, 5.45, 8.50, 9.54, and 3.65.

You are correct. It has been back 4 times.

Originally Posted by mrcvs

That Registered Magnum revolver, while still desirable, appears to be refinished in such a manner (amateur) that the star on the butt has nothing to do with a factory refinish, and, if it does, it has since been unprofessionally refinished again.

I disagree. The gun has probably been Factory reblued twice, maybe 3 times. I do not see anything amateurish about it.

Originally Posted by JP@AK

I suspect the stocks on your Registered Magnum are not original. The top of the panels is tapered and the early Magna stocks from the 1930s had sharp shoulders.

You don't even have to worry about those details. Just look at the checkering. Pre War grips have square (pointed) corners on the checkering border. Post War grips have rounded corners. The 38/44 has Pre War grips.
This Reg Mag has rounded corners, so they are Post War.

[mrcvs]

Serial number weak, “Made in U.S.A.” weak, barrel markings have that softened look about them, tone of bluing off.

If this is a factory refinish, it’s about the worst one I’ve seen.

[firemanhank]

Wait...No one noticed the box the 38/44 is in? It's a Reg. Mag box.
Hank

[mturnerb]

Originally Posted by firemanhank

Wait...No one noticed the box the 38/44 is in? It's a Reg. Mag box.
Hank

Actually it says on the box it's for the 38/44. Hard to see but here's a better photo. Also the box has a piece of tape on the back with the SN of the 38/44 written on it.

[firemanhank]

That's a much better picture. Definitely a 38/44 box. Also, serial numbers close to yours, both lower and higher, shipped in 1938. Congrats on a great revolver. I hope it was one of the MHP revolvers.
Hank

[paplinker]

You might consider checking under the grips on your Outdoorsman to see if the number stamped on them matches the gun. It's likely it does as you still have the original box. On occasion grips get moved around on different guns and it is possible they could be your RM grips, though unlikely. Still worth checking .

[mturnerb]

Originally Posted by firemanhank

That's a much better picture. Definitely a 38/44 box. Also, serial numbers close to yours, both lower and higher, shipped in 1938. Congrats on a great revolver. I hope it was one of the MHP revolvers.
Hank

I hope so too. Won't surprise me if that turns out to be the case, since Jack had a close relationship with MHP - probably sold them some guns when he was S&W rep.

[handejector]

Originally Posted by mrcvs

Serial number weak, “Made in U.S.A.” weak, barrel markings have that softened look about them, tone of bluing off.

If this is a factory refinish, it’s about the worst one I’ve seen.

After being refinished twice, wouldn't you expect some weaker markings? They don't get deeper with buffing.
The color looks right on my monitor.

[S&W ucla]

Here is thread on MHP reg mag.

Smith and Wesson Pre-World War II registered .357 Magnum revolver

[mrcvs]

Originally Posted by handejector

After being refinished twice, wouldn't you expect some weaker markings? They don't get deeper with buffing.
The color looks right on my monitor.

You are far knowledgeable than I am, so perhaps this is correct?

But after a few refinishes, wouldn’t Smith & Wesson re roll markings? Even if just a single refinish?

In my experience, most Smith & Wesson refinishes are of such quality so as to be barely indistinguishable from original, if this distinction can be made at all.

[outta_ammo]

The last 20 RMs I've seen sold for a median price of $7,000, with a high of $17,500, and a low of $3,000. That's not including a badly butchered one that still went for $2,500.

[lestert357]

For reference Reg Mag 56838/REG 3793 was originally 1 of 54 guns shipped to the Mississippi Highway Patrol with a lanyard loop on 5/26/38. Since Reg Mag 56816 is REG 3792 I would also put my money on it having been originally shipped to the Mississippi Highway Patrol.

Update: I see a ship date of 6/02/38 for several of the other Mississippi Highway Patrol Reg Mags listed in the S&WCA Pre-War .357 Magnum database, so 5/26/38 may be incorrect, or the shipment of 54 guns may have been broken up into multiple shipments.

[mturnerb]

Originally Posted by lestert357

For reference Reg Mag 56838/REG 3793 was originally 1 of 54 guns shipped to the Mississippi Highway Patrol with a lanyard loop on 5/26/38. Since Reg Mag 56816 is REG 3792 I would also put my money on it having been originally shipped to the Mississippi Highway Patrol.

That's fantastic information! Thanks

[Tom K]

I don't think anyone has mentioned, but that appears to me to be a 5" barrel, as opposed to the 4" stated in the original post. It will be interesting to see what the letter and historical records say.

[mturnerb]

Originally Posted by Tom K

I don't think anyone has mentioned, but that appears to me to be a 5" barrel, as opposed to the 4" stated in the original post. It will be interesting to see what the letter and historical records say.

I'm guilty of eyeballing it instead of measuring. You are exactly right - it is 5 inches. Usually I overestimate length....

[lestert357]

mturnerb, a couple of more comments FWIW…..the Mississippi HP guns were originally shipped with Baughman Quick Draw front sights. The Baughman Quick Draw front sight on your REG 3792 is pictured below from your pictures…..


Although it is a Baughman front sight, it appears post war to me and I believe it was possibly installed by the factory during one of the post war reworks. Most of the pre-war Baughman front sights were installed on the plain (non-reflector) King Ramp base as pictured below on my KCPD REG 5008…..


Also, as referenced in the thread linked in post# 42 above, the Mississippi HP guns were shipped with service style grips with Wesson grip adapters attached. If you are thinking of keeping REG 3792 and somewhat restoring it to the original configuration, the grip set up pictured below on my REG 447 is what you need. You can click on the picture for a closer look…..

[mturnerb]

Originally Posted by lestert357

mturnerb, a couple of more comments FWIW…..the Mississippi HP guns were originally shipped with Baughman Quick Draw front sights. The Baughman Quick Draw front sight on your REG 3792 is pictured below from your pictures…..


Although it is a Baughman front sight, it appears post war to me and I believe it was possibly installed by the factory during one of the post war reworks. Most of the pre-war Baughman front sights were installed on the plain (non-reflector) King Ramp base as pictured below on my KCPD REG 5008…..


Also, as referenced in the thread linked in post# 42 above, the Mississippi HP guns were shipped with service style grips with Wesson grip adapters attached. If you are thinking of keeping REG 3792 and somewhat restoring it to the original configuration, the grip set up pictured below on my REG 447 is what you need. You can click on the picture for a closer look…..

Thanks for this information. The MHP connection makes sense to me - Jack lived in Hattiesburg and probably acquired it when it was "retired" from MHP service. I've been looking around for grips (your info is VERY helpful as well) - the pre-ward authentic grips seem to be unobtainium, and the sold listings are very pricey. I pulled one off the 38/44 to see how it fit - not great at the butt - which makes me think any replacement grip will not be a perfect fit.

I'm considering selling it - waiting for the letter from S&W historical group which will take a while.